Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 449172 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1750 on: November 07, 2012, 02:08:11 AM »
That's much better Omid!  ;D
That dough looks awesome, I wish we could see it cooked through....
Bill

Dear Bill, thank you! I am really grateful to you for crafting the wooden pizza peel for me. It performs great for me. Today, I also launched some raw dough discs on the cold floor of my Forno Piccolo, using the wooden peel and the steel guard to mark the fire boundaries on the left side of the floor. I noticed the right shoulder of the peel would catch on the right side of the oven's interior mouth during launch if I were not careful. I noticed the same when I did my first bake with the oven several days ago. I thought about filing the shoulder a little (making it rounder), but later I decided to keep the peel intact. It is a great tool. Thank you, again!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1751 on: November 07, 2012, 02:12:55 AM »
Thanks for your video's...that is a nice quick "snap" of the peel for your launch. Puppy will come back around to your trust...

Dear Bob, thank you. Right now, my puppy is in the kitchen barking at the pizza peel!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1752 on: November 07, 2012, 04:02:18 AM »
Here's an interesting article from The Wall Street Journal:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204840504578086811735613862.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


"Little yeast, lots of time," Mr. Franco Pepe says, echoing a key pizzaiuolo dictum. —The Wall Street Journal

"The stufa is a reminder that making pizza should take you back out to people." —Franco Pepe

"We are bakers above all. To know how to make pizza, you have to know how to make bread." —Enzo Coccia

"Mr. Coccia and staff's creations are no flights of whimsy. As in any art, innovation must be grounded on a solid foundation, he explains." —The Wall Street Journal
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1753 on: November 07, 2012, 04:06:11 AM »
Omid, it is pretty complex and in depth explanation/lecture.  I will need a bit of time to coincisely summarize it, but it would be my pleasure as to offer it as a small contribution to the forum........

Thank you, sir! I'd be interested in seeing how he approaches the subject matter.

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 04:07:54 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1754 on: November 07, 2012, 09:40:08 AM »
i wonder how many pizzas it took to make that peel at Da Michele look like it does! 

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1755 on: November 07, 2012, 07:10:08 PM »
i wonder how many pizzas it took to make that peel at Da Michele look like it does!

Dear Bill, perhaps you should craft a pizza peel for Da Michele and ship it to them as a gift. Would you not be honored to see your peel in their hands in the future Da Michele videos, if they actually adopt the peel? I would be honored too!

Years ago, an American luthier crafted a flamenco guitar and personally delivered it to Paco de Lucia (who is truly one of the Mozarts of our time) in Spain. Paco loved that guitar so much that he used it for recording some of his albums. Because of that, the luthier is now very prominent and busy. Currently, it takes several years for him to build you a flamenco guitar if you were to order it today. Good day!

Regards,
Omid
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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1756 on: November 07, 2012, 07:16:05 PM »
Do you feel that a peel improves with age and handling, in the same way that a musical instrument does?
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1757 on: November 08, 2012, 02:40:04 PM »
Omid, back to the oven floor discussion from a few pages back.

I'm curious....does the floor of the oven at Pizzeria Bruno have any cracks in it?

I've seen the inside of a few Stefano Ferraras that have been in service for a little while and they all show cracking on the floor (biscotti) of the refractory chamber. Some of the cracks are relatively large.

I have seen other manufacturers that do not have cracking on the floor.

At first thought the non-affixed "floating" nature of the four floor pieces came to my mind as a potential reason for the cracking, but I would think the non-affixed nature would alleviate any stress from expanding and contracting.

Thanks. --K

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1758 on: November 08, 2012, 02:46:36 PM »
Do you feel that a peel improves with age and handling, in the same way that a musical instrument does?

Dear Pizzaneer, I am not sure. I assume it depends on:

1. What type of wood a peel is made out of, and
2. How well the peel is cared for.

In my experience, a peel made out of cheap wood won't last long in a commercial environment, using Neapolitan oven. In due time, it begins to warp and gradually come apart, but this is not to judge the peel's functionality. It will still function as long as the peel's surface is properly cleaned and maintained. Of course, it will eventually need to be replaced by a new peel.

What I like to see is a peel made out of ebony, which is one of the hardest, toughest, and densest woods known to man. Ebony is black (and sometimes dark brown) in color, which can clearly show how much flour is laid on its surface. Ebony is commonly used as fretboards for classical and flamenco guitars; it is also commonly used inside the guitars' necks to prevent them from warping. Ebony is not cheap though. Good day!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 03:04:06 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1759 on: November 08, 2012, 02:48:22 PM »
Omid, back to the oven floor discussion from a few pages back.

I'm curious....does the floor of the oven at Pizzeria Bruno have any cracks in it?

I've seen the inside of a few Stefano Ferraras that have been in service for a little while and they all show cracking on the floor (biscotti) of the refractory chamber. Some of the cracks are relatively large.

I have seen other manufacturers that do not have cracking on the floor.

At first thought the non-affixed "floating" nature of the four floor pieces came to my mind as a potential reason for the cracking, but I would think the non-affixed nature would alleviate any stress from expanding and contracting.

Thanks. --K



Kelly, there are a few hairline cracks in the floor of my oven - not that it sees anything resembling commerical use.

I've seen SF's with floors that look like they have been through a major earthquake and then run over with a jackhammer.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1760 on: November 08, 2012, 03:08:47 PM »
Kelly, there are a few hairline cracks in the floor of my oven - not that it sees anything resembling commerical use.

I've seen SF's with floors that look like they have been through a major earthquake and then run over with a jackhammer.

Ours has 2 very large cracks in it & a 3rd is beginning to develop.   A good friend of mine owns a Neapolitan Pizzeria here in Toronto, in less than 2 years, the left and right floor pieces have sunk at least 2".  Another well known pizzeria in Toronto had to have their floor completely replaced after 2 years.

Matt

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1761 on: November 08, 2012, 03:25:48 PM »
Ours has 2 very large cracks in it & a 3rd is beginning to develop.   A good friend of mine owns a Neapolitan Pizzeria here in Toronto, in less than 2 years, the left and right floor pieces have sunk at least 2".  Another well known pizzeria in Toronto had to have their floor completely replaced after 2 years.

Matt

Wow, that doesn't sound too cost effective........ is that normal with Neapolitan pizza ovens?
Paolo

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1762 on: November 08, 2012, 03:31:43 PM »
Omid, back to the oven floor discussion from a few pages back.

I'm curious....does the floor of the oven at Pizzeria Bruno have any cracks in it?

I've seen the inside of a few Stefano Ferraras that have been in service for a little while and they all show cracking on the floor (biscotti) of the refractory chamber. Some of the cracks are relatively large.

I have seen other manufacturers that do not have cracking on the floor.

At first thought the non-affixed "floating" nature of the four floor pieces came to my mind as a potential reason for the cracking, but I would think the non-affixed nature would alleviate any stress from expanding and contracting.

Thanks. --K

Kelly, there are a few hairline cracks in the floor of my oven - not that it sees anything resembling commerical use.

I've seen SF's with floors that look like they have been through a major earthquake and then run over with a jackhammer.

Dear K, yes, there is a couple of cracks, which are really insignificant. They do not mitigate the performance of the oven at Bruno. Reportedly, such cracks are fairly common. Like Craig, I have seen Neapolitan oven floors that seem to be in disrepair, yet they bake pizzas with no noticeable problems.

I can't resist sharing the picture, below, with you guys. Three days ago, I walked to Bruno with my puppy, one of her favorite activities. (She is a regular there.) When we arrived there, I decided to take her picture with my cell phone to prove to my wife that I did not neglect taking the puppy out for a walk. Right at the moment of snapping the shot, she suddenly turned around, and I ended up with the picture below. Have a great day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1763 on: November 08, 2012, 04:12:22 PM »
Ours has 2 very large cracks in it & a 3rd is beginning to develop.   A good friend of mine owns a Neapolitan Pizzeria here in Toronto, in less than 2 years, the left and right floor pieces have sunk at least 2".  Another well known pizzeria in Toronto had to have their floor completely replaced after 2 years.

Matt

Wow, that doesn't sound too cost effective........ is that normal with Neapolitan pizza ovens?

Dear Matthew, how are you? Great to see you here! Peter (the owner of Bruno) and I often think about you.

In my opinion, while a good Neapolitan oven is a diehard, they need to be treated, as you are aware,—with care. (I am not necessarily implying that somebody abused the ovens you referred to in your post.) I have known some who aggressively keep throwing thick, heavy wood logs on the bare oven floor, harshly banging on the oven floor with turning peels, scraping the floor with hard objects, cleaning the floor with water-drenched mops, and so on. Although these ovens are built to last a very long time, they should be thoughtfully treated.

I believe that Peter once told me that a cause of the oven floor lifting is when moisture/steam builds up inside the sand under the floor. Hence, some of the biscotti appear to have sunken. Have a great day, Matthew!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 06:30:29 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1764 on: November 08, 2012, 04:34:23 PM »
Dear Matthew, how are you? Great to see you here! Peter (the owner of Bruno) and I often think about you.

In my opinion, while a good Neapolitan oven is a diehard, they need to be treated, as you are aware,—with care. (I am not necessarily implying that somebody abused the ovens you referred to in your post.) I have known some who aggressively keep throwing thick, heavy wood logs on the bare oven floor, harshly banging on the oven floor with turning peels, scrapping the floor with hard objects, cleaning the floor with water-drenched mops, and so on. Although these ovens are built to last a very long time, they should be thoughtfully cared for.

I believe that Peter once told me that a cause of the oven floor lifting is when moisture somehow builds up inside the sand under the floor. Hence, some of the biscotti appear to have sunken. Have a great day, Matthew!

Hi Omid,
Doing good buddy.  How are you?  Please send Pete my high regards.  I totally agree that the damage is likely caused by abuse.  The absolute worse thing that you can do to one of these ovens is bang the turning peel on a hot floor as I've seen done many times.  The floor softens up when running at constant hot temperatures making it susceptible to damage if not treated properly.


Matt

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1765 on: November 08, 2012, 09:54:31 PM »
I noticed Franks floors at Vesta (2 SF ovens) seem a bit worn out for sure at least deeply pitted and a  few cracks ? I will snap a pic next week ?
JOhn
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Offline malvanova

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1766 on: November 09, 2012, 12:04:19 AM »
hello pizza napoletana ,, was looking in on your posts about the smoke problem out of your oven ,it seems to me that your smoke outlet is to small I had the same problem ,solved it by building a tapering smoke chamber above the entrance for the smoke to accumulate and thus out the flu,it worked well, plus at initial firing I built a smoke blocker, by blocking the entrance with a piece of sturdy sheet metal shaped to fit the entrance covering it 2/3 of it and leaving 1/3 of bottom portion (propped on legs) open for air intake that solved my smoke problem,combined with a larger smoke outlet,no smoke will escape.


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1767 on: November 09, 2012, 11:27:49 AM »
Thanks for the replies Omid, Matthew, Craig (I forgot to ask you how your oven looked) and John.

Yes, I have seen some pretty cratered and uneven floors.

I've always thought when seeing people putting wet rags on their peels to wipe the floor down that is one of the fastest ways to stress the floor materials (cool temperatures and moisture).

But assuming one is not being totally abusive to the floors, a certain amount of scraping, etc. occurs during the natural course of a busy service in a commercial establishment.

For a floor to be showing cracks within 2 years of service seems to be a short-period of time. Then again, with these types of ovens being more widely used in America for only a little while and thus our overall experience with them is limited, it may be the normal shelf-life of the oven floors.

Granted, it is just one example, but perhaps Enzo could chime in here. It's now been a while since I was in Pupatella, but I do not recall seeing the larger sized cracks on his floor that I noticed in the several Ferarra ovens I have seen.

Nothing against the SF ovens, but it is interesting to note.
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1768 on: November 09, 2012, 02:29:01 PM »
Here is a related question.  Anybody know how they replace the floors?  By my calculations the 4 piece floor tiles do not fit through the standard Neapolitan cast entry.  I assume they remove the casting, but that seems very dangerous to the structural integrity of the oven.
-Jeff

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1769 on: November 09, 2012, 03:04:13 PM »
The cast iron arch/name plate can be removed. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1770 on: November 09, 2012, 03:10:44 PM »
Here is a related question.  Anybody know how they replace the floors?  By my calculations the 4 piece floor tiles do not fit through the standard Neapolitan cast entry.  I assume they remove the casting, but that seems very dangerous to the structural integrity of the oven.

I've seen an oven after the floor was changed.  They have to disassemble about half of the oven from the front to back & then put it back together again.

Matt

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1771 on: November 09, 2012, 03:30:00 PM »
Here is a related question.  Anybody know how they replace the floors?  By my calculations the 4 piece floor tiles do not fit through the standard Neapolitan cast entry.  I assume they remove the casting, but that seems very dangerous to the structural integrity of the oven.

The cast iron arch/name plate can be removed. --K

I've seen an oven after the floor was changed.  They have to disassemble about half of the oven from the front to back & then put it back together again.

Matt

Peter and I have theorized about this along the same line. Since each tile/biscotto is too large to go through the oven door, we believe that the metal door frame needs to be removed first. In fact, Peter has identified screws around the metal door frame of the Ferrara oven at workplace. Once the metal frame is removed, there are bricks behind it that need to be skillfully removed to create enough clearance for the old tiles/biscotti to exist and the new ones enter inside the oven. We are not sure how accurate this description is. Good day all!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 07:42:36 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1772 on: November 09, 2012, 03:39:54 PM »
hello pizza napoletana ,, was looking in on your posts about the smoke problem out of your oven ,it seems to me that your smoke outlet is to small I had the same problem ,solved it by building a tapering smoke chamber above the entrance for the smoke to accumulate and thus out the flu,it worked well, plus at initial firing I built a smoke blocker, by blocking the entrance with a piece of sturdy sheet metal shaped to fit the entrance covering it 2/3 of it and leaving 1/3 of bottom portion (propped on legs) open for air intake that solved my smoke problem,combined with a larger smoke outlet,no smoke will escape.

Dear Malvanova, I sincerely thank you for your time and concern. May I ask you, if it is no trouble, to post here a picture of your oven, particularly your "tapering smoke chamber"? Have a great weekend!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline shuboyje

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1773 on: November 09, 2012, 05:11:42 PM »
That has always been my assumption, but that arch supports the dome above it.  I wonder if they insert some sort of temporary support while doing the work.  Just seems like there should be a better way...like floor tiles that fit in the door.
-Jeff

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1774 on: November 09, 2012, 07:36:30 PM »
here's how i did it... i had to break each section in two so it would fit in the door.  it's lasted well since then.  i scored the back of the pieces and broke them over a bar.  it was a dirty job but i got it all nice and flat inside.
bill


 

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