Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 518267 times)

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Offline andreguidon

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1825 on: January 08, 2013, 06:32:55 AM »
Hi Omid, i have seen this video many times for a while now, i have notice 2 distinct details, the first is that they use Naples tap water (PH 7) that is a very neutral water, the other detail is that Mr. Condurro says that you should not tighten the dough ball (non stringere) so the pizza could be soft after its baked.
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Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1826 on: January 08, 2013, 11:37:49 AM »
Nice to see this thread moving again. Will describe a da Michele pie when I get back from NYC. Just had don Antonio last night and meeting John Conklin tomorrow to visit some pizzeria

Offline Omidz

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1827 on: January 08, 2013, 08:15:17 PM »
Hi Omid it's Omid! That is so weird to say :) This is my first official post! I wanted to thank you for inspiring me to take a more active role in the forums here. I don't know if you even know you did this but you did. After you saw the pics of my rig and asked me why I haven't posted any pics of it here it got me thinking and I really didn't have a good answer to that question. Maybe it was tech phobia which I tend to get from time to time.  I realized I have been learning so much from people here for the last 4 years ever since I started this journey and never have posted anything! Well my new year resolution is to "come out" take a more interactive role on this site and contribute in any way I can.

I hope I am not highjacking your post too much but I just wanted to "come out" and let everyone know that there is a guy in Los Angeles that shares in the obsessive passion of great pizza. Maybe someone can tell me where is a more appropriate place to post in the future. 

Here is a link to my rolling test kitchen that I have been using for the last two and half years I have fired it up about 60 times now:

Omid please let me know when you are coming to Los Angeles. I would love to meet up with you. You have my number.



http://craftpizzeria.shutterfly.com/#%26emid%3dsite_weeklydigest%26cid%3dSHARE3SXXXX

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1828 on: January 08, 2013, 08:45:43 PM »
Your pizza rig looks great! Love the red color. 

Regards,

TinRoof

Online Chaze215

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1829 on: January 08, 2013, 08:47:30 PM »
That's a sweet rig!!  ;D
Chaz

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1830 on: January 09, 2013, 12:29:08 AM »
Omidz,

Awesome looking rig!  Do you have any pictures of your pizza's?   

Scott D.

Offline Omidz

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1831 on: January 09, 2013, 01:10:26 AM »
Thanks Scott. I have some but because I haven't been posting here not nearly as many as I should. I also lost a bunch late last year when I upgraded laptops. I think this site forces you to document your work which is a good thing. I'll see what I can find on my wife's computer.

Offline Omidz

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1832 on: January 09, 2013, 01:11:48 AM »
Tin Roof where do you live in OC?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1833 on: January 10, 2013, 03:41:05 AM »
Hi Omid, i have seen this video many times for a while now, i have notice 2 distinct details, the first is that they use Naples tap water (PH 7) that is a very neutral water, the other detail is that Mr. Condurro says that you should not tighten the dough ball (non stringere) so the pizza could be soft after its baked.

Dear Andre, thank you for the information. The second detail that you shared with us (i.e., "not tightening the dough balls") intimates that Da Michele employs the double-rise method, with emphasis put on long slow fermentation during the first phase and maturation during the second phase, which is of much shorter time frame in relation to the former. My experimentations, up to this point, have clearly verified this as factual. Good night!

Omid  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 03:49:09 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1834 on: January 10, 2013, 04:09:16 AM »
Hi Omid it's Omid! That is so weird to say :) This is my first official post! I wanted to thank you for inspiring me to take a more active role in the forums here. I don't know if you even know you did this but you did. After you saw the pics of my rig and asked me why I haven't posted any pics of it here it got me thinking and I really didn't have a good answer to that question. Maybe it was tech phobia which I tend to get from time to time.  I realized I have been learning so much from people here for the last 4 years ever since I started this journey and never have posted anything! Well my new year resolution is to "come out" take a more interactive role on this site and contribute in any way I can.

I hope I am not highjacking your post too much but I just wanted to "come out" and let everyone know that there is a guy in Los Angeles that shares in the obsessive passion of great pizza. Maybe someone can tell me where is a more appropriate place to post in the future. 

Here is a link to my rolling test kitchen that I have been using for the last two and half years I have fired it up about 60 times now:

Omid please let me know when you are coming to Los Angeles. I would love to meet up with you. You have my number.



http://craftpizzeria.shutterfly.com/#%26emid%3dsite_weeklydigest%26cid%3dSHARE3SXXXX

Dear Omid, welcome! I, too, look forward to some pictures of your pizzas. Have a great night!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1835 on: January 10, 2013, 03:57:24 PM »
Omid,

Maybe you can just check the brand of Cheese slicer that Bruno's uses.   I can then google it.  Thanks,

Scott D.

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1836 on: January 10, 2013, 04:54:50 PM »
Omid, I would also like to know the brand. The cutting blade size and style would also be hepful.

Offline Omidz

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1837 on: January 11, 2013, 02:49:03 AM »
How do you shrink down your files to post pics. It I can't upload the few pics I have to share.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1838 on: January 11, 2013, 03:00:50 AM »
Omid,

Maybe you can just check the brand of Cheese slicer that Bruno's uses.   I can then google it.  Thanks,

Scott D.

Omid, I would also like to know the brand. The cutting blade size and style would also be hepful.

Dear friends, upon doing a very brief research on this mechanized cheese grater/slicer, I came to find out that it is actually supposed to be a "vegetable cutter"! Nonetheless, it can be adapted for purposes beyond just cutting vegetables, as we use it at Pizzeria Bruno for grating different cheeses. I have never personally used this machine. Please see, below, the three pictures I shot. The last two pictures show the only two labels that I could find on the machine. I am not sure if OMCAN is the company that manufactured this machine or the company that just distributes this product in the US. Below is the OMCAN's URL address which has bunch of information on this food processor:

http://www.omcan.com/foodprocessors/hlc_300.html

By the way, according to Peter, this food processor costs about $1,500.00. Good night!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1839 on: January 11, 2013, 12:20:20 PM »
Omid,

Thanks for the Cheese Shredder information.  I really appreciate it.  I found it here on Ebay for 895.00. 

http://compare.ebay.com/like/160751688981?_lwgsi=y&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

Looks like a bargain!

Scott D.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 12:29:00 PM by flyboy4ual »

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1840 on: January 11, 2013, 02:36:37 PM »
Alright, after spending about an hour looking the photo and/or video that showed Da Michele dough balls with less spread, I'm coming up with nothing.  It's frustrating, I have the image seared in my brain of a Da Michele dough box where the balls aren't touching.

I did take another look at the post-bulk proofing balling in the video, and I'll concede, at that point, it's look really slack. If you think it's 64%ish percent hydration, I can't find any evidence that shows otherwise.

That being said, I believe that elevated hydration, to an extent, is one of many factors that leads to potential toughness in the crumb.  If, while you experiment, you find yourself unable to match Da Michele's delicate texture, you might want to take a look at the hydration.

the other detail is that Mr. Condurro says that you should not tighten the dough ball (non stringere) so the pizza could be soft after its baked.

Between the slackness of the bulk dough, this instruction towards gentle balling and a relatively gentle (by Naple's standards) opening technique, I get the feeling that they're aware of the impact of overdeveloping the gluten and most likely incorporate this philosophy into the mix/knead with a minimal knead. From the way Chris Bianco gently opens his dough, I've long posited that he's cautious with all potential aspects of gluten development as well.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1841 on: January 11, 2013, 05:45:07 PM »
Alright, after spending about an hour looking the photo and/or video that showed Da Michele dough balls with less spread, I'm coming up with nothing.  It's frustrating, I have the image seared in my brain of a Da Michele dough box where the balls aren't touching.

I did take another look at the post-bulk proofing balling in the video, and I'll concede, at that point, it's look really slack. If you think it's 64%ish percent hydration, I can't find any evidence that shows otherwise.

That being said, I believe that elevated hydration, to an extent, is one of many factors that leads to potential toughness in the crumb.  If, while you experiment, you find yourself unable to match Da Michele's delicate texture, you might want to take a look at the hydration.

Between the slackness of the bulk dough, this instruction towards gentle balling and a relatively gentle (by Naple's standards) opening technique, I get the feeling that they're aware of the impact of overdeveloping the gluten and most likely incorporate this philosophy into the mix/knead with a minimal knead. From the way Chris Bianco gently opens his dough, I've long posited that he's cautious with all potential aspects of gluten development as well.

Dear Scott, I thank you for your time and effort to search for the Da Michele picture(s). I have attached, below, a picture of Da Michele dough coming out of their fork mixer. Perhaps, it can unconceal certain clues! (If I am not mistaken, that dough is hydrated more than the norm. Also, take notice of the mixer walls.) Per my experiments thus far, it appears to me that Da Michele dough is much more technical than I initially thought. They are clearly good at what they do and how they do it!

Obviously, one of the limitations that I am facing in this enterprise is my Santos fork mixer. It is not as gentle as Da Michele's fork mixer; it develops the dough much quicker during mixing. In addition, my Santos is of much lower capacity, which makes a substantial difference (less dough weight-pressure during mixing). I have found certain ways around these problems, but they can only alleviate them up to a point. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 05:46:40 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1842 on: January 11, 2013, 06:17:52 PM »
Here's another failed attempt to replicate Da Michele pizza, employing the double-rise method (fully at the mercy of room temperature [69-73 F] for the entire duration [20+5 hours] of fermentation and maturation). However, I hope this failure prove to be a prelude to a more successful attempt tonight. The pizza tasted good and was texturally soft, but did not live up to the Da Michele ideals as I perceive them. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1843 on: January 12, 2013, 06:15:32 AM »
Below are the results of last night bake, using the Stefano Ferrara oven at Pizzeria Bruno. (As usual, I am thankful to Peter, owner of Bruno!) While the pizzas were tasty and texturally soft, they did not live up to the Da Michele ideals.

My Caputo Pizzeria dough, which I prepared at home with my Santos fork mixer, was of 67% hydration, 3% salt, and 0.07% fresh yeast. Further, the dough was fermented at room temperature (69-73 F) for 20 hours in mass and 5 hours in balls. The technique (on which I will elaborate in near future) that I employed to produce the dough rendered the dough balls fully manageable, even at that level of hydration and warm fermentation. And, judging by the dough balls I left at home at room temperature, they had great sustainability (up to 8 hours before entropy began to gradually creep in) after 20+5 hours of warm fermentation. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 05:56:13 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1844 on: January 12, 2013, 06:15:46 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1845 on: January 12, 2013, 06:50:19 AM »
Below is a typical example of Da Michele pizza. Beautiful picture shot on August 2, 2012 by Gabriel Sperandio at L'antica Pizzeria da Michele. Thank you, Gabriel!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1846 on: January 12, 2013, 10:09:51 AM »
Omid,
your commitment to tradition is an inspiration.  thanks again for sharing.
bill

Offline Omidz

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1847 on: January 12, 2013, 01:54:54 PM »
Omid. Those Pies look pretty darn good if you ask me. You can tell the difference in the spotting of the two though. But you are much closer than many of the "Neapolitan" pizzerias in the states.

Here are a couple pics of my pizzas. I'm disappointed that I can't seem to get my old pics from my old pc to load up. Guess I have to make more pizza  :) Keep in mind the crust I am working on is not attempting to recreate an iconic neapolitan pizza. I am looking to create a crust that can withstand a variety of commercial uses but still remain as Peter R. says "memorable". I just wanted to get the pic up here since a few had asked about it. But out of respect for Omid's post I won't post anything else related to my pies here. When I get a handle on this site and my pics i'll create a separate thread. I'll post the pics separately in another post cause I seem to be having trouble popping it in here.

Offline Omidz

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1848 on: January 12, 2013, 02:19:12 PM »
well this is the best I could do. My wife took these with her fancy Nikon and I can't seem to get them resized for posting. I'll just take a bunch of pics and post them on another thread next time I fire up.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1849 on: January 12, 2013, 07:44:53 PM »
Omid, your Da Michele attempts are getting better and better.......keep up the good work!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 06:58:04 AM by Mangia Pizza »
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