Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 501131 times)

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Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1925 on: February 17, 2013, 09:47:59 PM »
Omid have yoy been to Sofia yet? They sure have a nice oven.


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1926 on: February 18, 2013, 02:07:42 AM »
Omid have yoy been to Sofia yet? They sure have a nice oven.

Dear Pulcinella, "Sofia" is not the correct name of the establishment, which is both a restaurant and pizzeria. The Ferrara oven is merely named after the daughter of the pizzeria's owner, Mr. Matteo Cattaneo, who is an Italian native. The correct name of the joint is Buona Forchetta (literally meaning "good fork"; otherwise, a figurative expression for a "connoisseur of good food"), which is a new addition to the Neapolitan pizzerias here in San Diego, California. The pizzeria's pizzaiolo, the one in charge of the Neapolitan pizzas, is a friend of mine, Mr. Anthony Rubino, who previously worked for Pizzeria Calabria, another Neapolitan pizzeria (http://www.caffecalabria.com/pizzeria/), here in San Diego. There is another pizzaiolo, Mr. Carmine Nasti, who is in charge of the non-Neapolitan pizzas at the pizzeria. Buona Forchetta offers about 3 different styles of pizzas. (http://www.buonaforchettasd.com/BUONA_FORCHETTA_MENU.pdf)

Now, San Diego has three Neapolitan pizzerias (in order of appearance): Pizzeria Bruno, Pizzeria Calabria, and Buona Forchetta.

To answer your question, I have been to Buona Forchetta, but I have not tried any of their pizzas yet. However, they have cordially invited me there to try their pizzas. Soon, I will. Good night!

Omid
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 02:19:33 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1927 on: February 25, 2013, 04:25:30 AM »
Last Saturday, I finally got to try the 5 Stagioni flour for Neapolitan pizza. Here is the basic recipe I tried:

Flour (Datum Point)
Water 57%
Salt 2.7%
Fresh Yeast 0.021%

Mixer: Santos Fork Mixer
Initial Fermentation: 24 hours at room temperature (72-74F)
Final Fermentation: 7 hours at room temperature (69-71F)
Dough Ball Weight: about 260 to 270 grams each
Final Dough Ball Temperature before bake: 71F
Oven: Ferrara (Thank you, Peter!)
Floor Temp.: 925F
Bake Time: Under 60 seconds

Below are the results illustrated in pictures:
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1928 on: February 25, 2013, 04:25:47 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1929 on: February 25, 2013, 04:26:04 AM »
Continued . . .
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 06:10:24 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1930 on: February 25, 2013, 05:29:19 AM »
Dear Omid, your pies are just awesome, my complements ! 

How was the taste ?


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1931 on: February 25, 2013, 06:35:24 AM »
Absolute perfection in all aspects of the pie. Some of the best pies I have seen on this forum. Congrats on such an informed view on this flour.

John

Online tinroofrusted

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1932 on: February 25, 2013, 09:01:52 AM »
Beautiful pizzas, Omid.  The folded crust is so very pliable, and perfectly cooked!  Well done! 

Regards,

TinRoof

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1933 on: February 25, 2013, 09:13:06 AM »
Omid,

Perfection (again) ! Without knowing it you gave me some additional beautiful pics of your undercrust that I was looking for.


John K
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Offline kiwipete

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1934 on: February 25, 2013, 02:51:54 PM »

Interesting. I know CraigTX has been using the same flour and found it needs a much higher hydration than Caputo (in the region of 65-66 %) as well as extremely short baking times (40 seconds) in order to come up with a good result.

Your pizzas look pretty much perfect with more conventional hydration ratios and cooking times.

I'd be curious to find out what accounts for the difference?

Peter

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1935 on: February 25, 2013, 07:36:11 PM »
Great job Omid!!!!

Scott D.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1936 on: February 25, 2013, 08:28:16 PM »
Dear Omid, your pies are just awesome, my complements ! 

How was the taste?

Dear Sub, thank you! The flavor was to my liking; however, I need more time to explore and understand the flour (i.e., 5 Stagioni for Neapolitan pizza) as this was my very first time ever using it. Nonetheless, I think the flavor would have benefitted if I had used higher hydration. The reason that I employed such a low hydration (57%) in my improvised recipe was that I wanted to use half of the dough for baking an Iranian bread that did not require high hydration.

By the way, you are doing a great job making pizzas with your cleverly modified electric oven. Have a great day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1937 on: February 25, 2013, 08:28:45 PM »
Absolute perfection in all aspects of the pie. Some of the best pies I have seen on this forum. Congrats on such an informed view on this flour.

John

Dear John, thank you! Next time, if I get more 5 Stagioni flour, I will certainly escalate the hydration. The flour I used in my recipe, above, was borrowed from a friend. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1938 on: February 25, 2013, 08:29:47 PM »
Beautiful pizzas, Omid.  The folded crust is so very pliable, and perfectly cooked!  Well done! 

Regards,

TinRoof

Omid,

Perfection (again) ! Without knowing it you gave me some additional beautiful pics of your undercrust that I was looking for.


John K

Great job Omid!!!!

Scott D.

Gentlemen, thank you!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1939 on: February 25, 2013, 08:34:48 PM »
Interesting. I know CraigTX has been using the same flour and found it needs a much higher hydration than Caputo (in the region of 65-66 %) as well as extremely short baking times (40 seconds) in order to come up with a good result.

Your pizzas look pretty much perfect with more conventional hydration ratios and cooking times.

I'd be curious to find out what accounts for the difference?

Peter

Dear Peter, the flour (i.e., 5 Stagioni for Neapolitan pizza) is very new to me, and I have used it only once so far. I am still not fully cognizant of its physico-chemical properties and requirements. In addition, as I mentioned above, "The reason that I employed such a low hydration (57%) in my improvised recipe was that I wanted to use half of the dough for baking an Iranian bread that did not require high hydration." Otherwise, I would have employed higher hydration like dear Craig. Furthermore, we should keep in mind that Craig used sourdough culture while I used fresh yeast. At last, both Craig and I have our respective dough developmental techniques. He, and dear Marlon (Bakeshack), definitely have been producing impressive results with the flour.

Considering the above, I am not sure what precisely accounts for the "difference"? Perchance, long initial fermentation at room temperature (72-74F) which effectuates a different rate and quality of enzymatic hydrolysis, alcoholic fermentation, acidification, and subsequent maturation of dough? I do not know; the variables are many, and our techniques different. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1940 on: February 27, 2013, 08:27:49 AM »
In my response to RobynB's concern and Chicago Bob's suggestion to her, which were reflected in Bakeshack's thread "Cake Yeast Dough" (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg239768.html#msg239768), I deliver my response here in order not to derail Bakeshack's thread.

Dear Robyn, in the aforementioned thread you wrote:

See . . . because my dome is so low, doming is pretty risky - I tend to set the pizza on fire if I raise it more than an inch or two.  So I try to cook completely on the floor except for turning, and was having issues with burning bottoms. . . .

In response to your concern, dear Chicago Bob made the following suggestion:

I wonder how your pie would cook if you placed a 1/4in thick by 12in round aluminum plate on your deck a minute or 2 before launch. . . .

That is what I have been doing with my Piccolo oven in order to avoid burning the bottoms of my pizzas. This is done in different ways; different circumstances call for different ways of implementing this method. Generally, this is how I have been doing it . . . I have been using a metal plate (see the first picture below), which I cut with a diameter of 15 inches. Right after priming my oven and moving the fire from the center to the left of the hearth, I place the plate right on the spot where I intend to bake my pizzas, and I let the plate stay there until I am ready to launch my pizza on the oven floor. Sometimes, I remove the plate about 5 minutes before launching my pizza on the oven floor. It depends on (1) what temperature I need, (2) what the actual temperature is on the floor below the plate, and (3) what is the intensity or impetus of the temperature below the plate. (See my Reply #1952 below.)

Basically, the rationale is that the oven floor acquires a percentage of its energy (heat) from the hot coals ("conduction heat") and a percentage from the light of fire ("radiative heat"). (I am neglecting the convection heat here.) Some believe that the ratio between the two is about 50/50. Hence, the radiative heat is blocked from reaching the oven floor by placing the metal plate on the area of the floor where you bake your pizzas. Using the plate in this manner has enabled me to continuously bake pizzas for hours (as much as 7 hours per session) without the oven floor over-heating. Below are some pictures showing the underskirts of the pizzas I baked last night in my Forno Piccolo. Let me know if you have any questions. (Wise suggestion, Bob!) Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:09:06 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1941 on: February 27, 2013, 08:28:12 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1942 on: February 27, 2013, 08:40:46 AM »
Omid,

1.  You end up cooking on the FLOOR of the oven, not the plate correct?
2.  Do you replace the metal plate between each pie?
3.  Do you think it woud be wise to replace the plate between pies if the time between pies will be long?

Thanks!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline shuboyje

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1943 on: February 27, 2013, 08:46:09 AM »
Omid,,

Please get yourself an aluminum or stainless plate.  We all enjoy you too much to have you get sick from the zinc. 
-Jeff

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1944 on: February 27, 2013, 09:00:29 AM »
Omid,

1.  You end up cooking on the FLOOR of the oven, not the plate correct?
2.  Do you replace the metal plate between each pie?
3.  Do you think it woud be wise to replace the plate between pies if the time between pies will be long?

Thanks!

John K

Dear John, yes, I remove the metal plate before launching my pizza on the oven floor. The pizza does not bake on the plate. After the pizza exits the oven, I place the plate back on the oven floor. However, if I see that the floor has lost too much heat, then I forgo or delay doing so. If the interval between bakes is too long, I place the plate on the oven floor to keep it in check while I keep the fire going. My oven floor can heat up quickly under the right conditions. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 03:42:14 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1945 on: February 27, 2013, 09:05:52 AM »
Omid,,

Please get yourself an aluminum or stainless plate.  We all enjoy you too much to have you get sick from the zinc.

Dear Jeff, I thank you very much for your cautionary advice. How foolish of me . . . I should have known. I will need to edit my post above in case readers do not read your post. Again, thank you!

Omid
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1946 on: February 27, 2013, 09:18:16 AM »
However, if I see that the floor is not hot enough...
Omid

Omid,

What is your optimal range in floor temp to achieve the undercrust shots you have shared above?

Thanks!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1947 on: February 27, 2013, 09:50:13 AM »
Basically, the rationale is that the oven floor acquires a percentage of its energy (heat) from the hot coals ("conduction heat") and a percentage from the light of fire ("radiative heat"). Some say that the ratio is about 50/50. Hence, the radiative heat is blocked from reaching the oven floor by placing the metal plate on the area of the floor where you bake your pizzas. Using the plate in this manner has enable me to continuously bake pizzas for hours (as much as 7 hours per session) without the oven floor over-heating. Below are some pictures showing the underskirts of the pizzas I baked last night in my Forno Piccolo. Let me know if you have any questions. (Wise suggestion, Bob!) Good day!

With respect to the portion of the oven floor where you bake, are you referring to heat entering the floor from the coals after the fire is moved to the side of the hearth? If so, I would guess that the portion of heat entering the baking area of the floor via conduction from the coals is closer to 5% or less. My guess is that 95%+ of the heat comes via radiation and convection. 
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1948 on: February 27, 2013, 10:36:00 AM »
Nice trick Omid.  I will be borrowing this technique for my oven.  Thank you!

Chau


Offline Omidz

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1949 on: February 27, 2013, 11:52:03 AM »
Very innovative. Sometimes the best solutions are the simplest.
When I owned pizza delivery outlets we used pizza screens to accomplish the same thing. Taking them on and off the screens to control bottom heat and browning. Although  this would not work the same  in a neapolitan pizza  application due to a variety of reasons I am curious what challenges and benefits  it would present. I'll try this next fire up.

Also Omid you mentioned you also made some persian bread with your last batch as well. what type of bread did you make and do you have pics of them?


 

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