Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 350882 times)

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Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1980 on: March 13, 2013, 12:08:06 PM »
that's a strong control group!  did you shield the floor before baking those? 
bill


Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1981 on: March 13, 2013, 12:08:45 PM »
100 pages  ;D
best thread ever!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1982 on: March 13, 2013, 06:12:33 PM »
Omid, please tell your sister, BEAUTIFUL PIES. I bet she had a good teacher, as her pies look a lot like yours.

MArk

Just like in "The Wizard of Oz".....it's how the man behind the curtain operates the controls.  8)

Awesome results with the Piccolo!

Thanks Omid, please keep up the good work and all the experiments that you perform for all of us to benefit....

Bravissimo......

The pizzas are beautiful (and beautifully lit, as well as photographed!)

The coal bed at the end of the bake is beautiful!

The thinking that you are doing about the variables is amazing to me!

John K

I can only wish I will come close to you pizza making ability. Truly stunning.

This is an excellent representation of the pizza napoletana!  Great pictures, too.  Thank you for sharing your experiment!  Ciao, Paulo and Piccolo fans!  Giuseppe

Thank you, gentlemen!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1983 on: March 13, 2013, 06:12:53 PM »
Ever throw a steak on that bed Omid?   :chef:

Dear Bob, yes, I have, but not directly on the hot coals. First, I place my cast iron grill directly on the hot coals inside the WFO. Next, after the grill bars become hot enough, I place the steaks on them. As you can imagine, steaks cook much faster and better this way than using my gas grill. The heat-attack from the hot coals and the dome cook them to perfection. Also, I use the hot coals to cook Iranian shishlik kabob, barg kabob, koobideh kabob, or cornish game hen kabob. First, I line up a row of bricks in the back of the oven and another row, parallel to the first row, in the front of the oven. Next, I spread the hot coals in between the two rows of parallel brick rows on the oven floor. At last, I place the metal kabob skewers, burdened with the kabob meats, on the two brick lines, and let the kabobs cook. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 06:33:19 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1984 on: March 13, 2013, 06:29:38 PM »
100 pages  ;D
best thread ever!

that's a strong control group!  did you shield the floor before baking those? 
bill

Dear Bill, thank you! Yes, I used the aluminum plate between the bakes in order to keep my oven floor well-tempered. It works really great for me. It should work as good for anyone else who is facing the same problem. Have you tried the shield in your oven yet? If yes, what were the results? Have a great day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1985 on: March 14, 2013, 04:19:20 AM »
Here's an interesting news . . . The Neapolitan flour producer Antico Molino Caputo has come up with a new product. This product is not another type of flour, but "Criscito" or sourdough culture.


http://www.italiasquisita.net/novita-molino-caputo-a-sigep

http://www.youdreamitaly.com/Farina-Caputo-Criscito-Caputo-Kg-1-Esclusiva-nel-nostro-Store.xhtml?id=767

http://www.scattidigusto.it/2013/01/21/criscito-vs-lievito-madre-per-la-migliore-pizza-naturale-al-sigep/


I am not sure if the U.S. laws would allow importation of this product. We shall see. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1986 on: March 14, 2013, 05:01:56 AM »
Hi Omid,

some infos on the product

The recommended dose is 50 grams per kilo of flour, while the amount of yeast commonly used remains unchanged (it's used as a flavoring agent) and the shelf life is 16 months.

On the package:

The pizza made with the criscito has best organoleptic characteristics and  several advantages:

- Shelf life;
- Extensibility;
- Digestibility;
- Taste;
- Crisp cold

Offline andreguidon

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1987 on: March 14, 2013, 06:31:04 AM »
The importer of Caputo here in Brazil told me about this product, it is dehydrated culture that you need to add CY or IDY to it, it is the same as the 5stagioni Naturkraft. he will have this product in 1 month and i will test it and let you guys know...
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Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1988 on: March 14, 2013, 01:21:24 PM »
if it is available I'm sure we will see it at the vegas show.

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1989 on: March 14, 2013, 02:51:39 PM »
Confronto Criscito vs. Lievito Madre

Confronto Criscito vs. Lievito Madre


Offline andreguidon

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1990 on: March 14, 2013, 03:11:04 PM »
talking to some pizzaiolos wen in Naples, including Guglielmo Vuolo (pizzeria Vuolo), Gianni Improta (pizzeria all 22) and Paolo Surace (pizzeria Mattozzi) about natural fermentation, i ask what exactly was Criscito, they all told me it was different from Lievito Madre, Criscito for this guys is Old Dough, and Lievito Madre is Sourdough (natural starter). i have posted an interview with Guglielmo Vuolo here in the Neapolitan tread where he says that... and wen i staged at Mattozzi, some dough from lunch was left over and i asked Paolo what was done with that dough, he said, i used it as Criscito for tomorrow's dough.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1991 on: March 14, 2013, 04:44:53 PM »
Hi Omid,

some infos on the product

The recommended dose is 50 grams per kilo of flour, while the amount of yeast commonly used remains unchanged (it's used as a flavoring agent) and the shelf life is 16 months.

On the package:

The pizza made with the criscito has best organoleptic characteristics and  several advantages:

- Shelf life;
- Extensibility;
- Digestibility;
- Taste;
- Crisp cold

Dear Sub, I thank you very much for providing the information which baffles me to an extent, although I still do not know enough about this new product by Captuo.

To my understanding, criscito or sourdough culture/starter is a mixture of only water and flour as a supporting habitat for two types of fermentative micro-organisms that symbiotically function: "wild yeasts" (not domesticated or commercial yeasts) and "lactobacillus bacteria". Further, if my understanding is adequate, such autochthonous mircoflora—by themselves—are quite sufficient and effective for fermenting, leavening, and developing flavors of bread or pizza dough that is properly inoculated therewith.

Hence, with respect to your above-referenced information (which I assume is provided by Caputo), it does not make sense, at least to me, to mix this product, Criscito, and "[commercial] yeast" together in a pizza dough recipe. And, the statement, i.e., "It [criscito] is used as a flavoring agent", is rather curious, for criscito, as I described above, is used for the purpose of fermentation, besides its flavoring capability. But, first, I should ask, "What is Caputo's 'Criscito' made of?" "Does it contain 'wild yeasts' and 'lactobacillus bacteria'?" Indeed, I need to be careful about how Caputo defines the terms "criscito" and "lievito naturale". Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 04:48:35 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1992 on: March 14, 2013, 04:45:01 PM »
talking to some pizzaiolos wen in Naples, including Guglielmo Vuolo (pizzeria Vuolo), Gianni Improta (pizzeria all 22) and Paolo Surace (pizzeria Mattozzi) about natural fermentation, i ask what exactly was Criscito, they all told me it was different from Lievito Madre, Criscito for this guys is Old Dough, and Lievito Madre is Sourdough (natural starter). i have posted an interview with Guglielmo Vuolo here in the Neapolitan tread where he says that... and wen i staged at Mattozzi, some dough from lunch was left over and i asked Paolo what was done with that dough, he said, i used it as Criscito for tomorrow's dough.


Dear Andre, I have noticed that certain terminologies within the field of baking (i.e., how certain terms are defined) sometimes differ from region to region and from person to person within a region in Italy. For instance, in contrast to how Mr. Vuolo or Surace define "criscito", let us take a look at how Mr. Marco Parente, who also is a native of Naples, view the term:

. . . We need to distinguish between . . . leavening agents (commercial yeast vs natural yeast or "CRISCETO" as it is known in Naples). . . . When we talk about starter, natural leaven, wild yeast, we are talking about a microflora of wild yeast and bacteria which strive in a mix of flour and water. A piece of this mix, can be used only as starter for the next dough. . . . 

The old dough method, is a way of using a piece of acidified dough from the previous batch (thus including salt and usually made with a natural wild yeast starter otherwise doesn't have leavening power). When using a culture starter from another regions, like the Italians one, I strongly recommend not to use the old dough method, but instead the Mother dough method.

In the mother dough method, a piece of dough made with only water and flour plus the culture starter, is refreshed with a 50% addition of water and flour, and after is left to ferment for a minimum time of 3-6 hours, a piece is cut off (the daughter) and used as fermenting agent or in large quantity as preferment. This way, thanks to the strong inoculating of the original mother dough into the refreshment, there is a better chance to avoid contaminations.

Source: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679.html#msg8679

Have a great day!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 04:52:21 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline andreguidon

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1993 on: March 14, 2013, 04:53:07 PM »
Dear Andre, I have noticed that certain terminologies within the field of baking (i.e., how certain terms are defined) sometimes differ from region to region and from person to person within a region in Italy. For instance, in contrast to how Mr. Vuolo or Surace define "criscito"

You are right Omid, Italian fight about allot of things, and some times they are saying the exact same thing with different words... i have seen Marco's comment about Criscito... i always use the term commercial or natural yeast wen talking to them...
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1994 on: March 14, 2013, 05:21:23 PM »
if it is available I'm sure we will see it at the vegas show.

Dear Larry, unfortunately I am not able to make it to the Pizza Expo to meet you and John in Las Vegas. Please, let me know if Caputo's "Criscito" is featured at the Expo. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1995 on: March 14, 2013, 05:57:44 PM »
we will take lots of pictures and report on our experiences. when i visited antimo last year in naples he stated that da michele used a percentage of criscito in its dough i do not have the percentage in front of me but he did give it to me. yeast was still used in the formula he gave me.
 using old dough to flavor fresh is nothing new, a lot of american pizza makers do this and have been since i can remember. my first days in pizza shops was over 40 years ago and it was practiced then.

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1996 on: March 14, 2013, 06:29:53 PM »
we will take lots of pictures and report on our experiences. when i visited antimo last year in naples he stated that da michele used a percentage of criscito in its dough i do not have the percentage in front of me but he did give it to me. yeast was still used in the formula he gave me.
 using old dough to flavor fresh is nothing new, a lot of american pizza makers do this and have been since i can remember. my first days in pizza shops was over 40 years ago and it was practiced then.

Dear Larry, could you dig up the Da Michele recipe/percentages per Mr. Antimo and post them here, please? Also, did he clarify that what he precisely meant by "criscito" as used by Da Michele? If yes, will you please post his clarification here as well. I thank you in advance.

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1997 on: March 15, 2013, 01:42:20 PM »
 Omid, when i met Antimo my question to him was whether or not they used  yeast or a natural levain . he said "yeast" and they also add crescito at about 5%of the flour weight. he then explained that crescito was old dough.
 that is as far as he went with his explanation.
 
 the next part of his conversation was his recommended recipe. here it is.this is based on per liter of water. 50 grams of sea salt 2 to 4 grams of yeast this needs to be adjusted to get a 12 hour dough. which should be held at room temperature of 20-24 Celsius . he likes 1.6 kilos of flour to each liter of water. he said 12 minute mix time for all batch sizes. the slower the rise the less mix time needed. the bulk dough needs 20 minutes to develop the gluten so bulk for 30 minutes. then cut and form into balls for the room fermentation at above stated temperature for six hours before use. last note was to save leftover under refrigeration for next day service with two hour of time minimum at room temperature.
  please formulate a few questions and i will ask them next week.

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1998 on: March 15, 2013, 04:37:25 PM »
Dear Bill, thank you! Yes, I used the aluminum plate between the bakes in order to keep my oven floor well-tempered. It works really great for me. It should work as good for anyone else who is facing the same problem. Have you tried the shield in your oven yet? If yes, what were the results? Have a great day!

Omid

I have tried it in my mobile oven and it works great.  I used it again last night while doing some testing for a big event i'm cooking at this weekend.  i'm in your debt once again because i don't think i would have come up with that solution.

bill

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1999 on: March 15, 2013, 06:19:17 PM »
When i visited Antimo last year in naples he stated that da michele used a percentage of criscito in its dough i do not have the percentage in front of me but he did give it to me. Yeast was still used in the formula he gave me. Using old dough to flavor fresh is nothing new. . . .


Omid, when i met Antimo my question to him was whether or not they used  yeast or a natural levain . he said "yeast" and they also add crescito at about 5% of the flour weight. he then explained that crescito was old dough. that is as far as he went with his explanation.


Dear Larry, thank you! This reminds me of a conversation I had with Mr. Marco Parente last year in this thread. When I claimed, either wrongly or rightly, that Da Michele employs "criscito" (meaning, "sourdough culture", in the context of our dialogue) and posted the following statement made by Mr. Francesco Condurro:

Quote
The original Italian text:
Noi facciamo ancora la pizza con il cosiddetto "crìscito", vale a dire con la pasta fatta il giorno precedente alla cottura, che lievita naturalmente.

Google translation of the text:
We still do pizza with the so-called "criscito", that is, with the dough made ​​the day before baking, which rises naturally.

Source: http://damichele.net/pdf/g.vreppublica.pdf


Then, Mr. Marco replied:

They use lievito di birra fresco or fresh brewer yeast, as they call it, which is just fresh commercial yeast. The article you have posted clearly demonstrated that they "play" with the understanding of the general public, as he basically says: "we still make the dough using 'Crisceto', I mean making the dough the day before service", which is not like using a natural culture. . . .


An article by Monica Piscitelli makes this situation even more confusing. She wrote:

Quote
The original Italian text:
A raccontarmi la storia della pizzeria "Da Michele", è il dottore Francesco Condurro. . . . Eppure la pizza, fatta con il lievito madre, è sempre filologicamente la stessa di sempre, piaccia o non piaccia: di monacale semplicità.

(Source: http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/pizzeria-da-michele-margherita-o-marinara-dal-1870/17112/)

The Blog's own English translation of the text:
Francesco Condurro, who is a "professional accountant-pizza maker", told me the story of the pizzeria "Da Michele". . . . They [pizzas] are made with mother yeast and the taste is still the one of the past.

(Source: http://www.lucianopignataro.com/articolo.php?pl=4458)


Confusion prevails when we do not clearly and distinctly define the terms (such as crisito, lievito madre, pasta madre, lievito naturale, and etc.) we use in our communications. Of course, philosophically speaking, definitions are not absolute; they are mere stipulations that should be understood within their respective contexts. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 04:55:08 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/