Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 350880 times)

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Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2120 on: June 24, 2013, 08:24:38 PM »
Hi Omid,

Too bad for your flour, but very informative post, thanks!

the flour probably be poorly stored, the bag was still far from the expiration date ?

That's why I was afraid to order a Caputo pizzeria bag, I wish they sell 10kg bags.

On the technical data of the flour we can read: temperature storage (fresh and airy place) 15-18°C



Fortunately, a friend of mine let me borrow some of his Caputo "00" Pizzeria flour, a healthy one, which he purchased two weeks ago. I followed the same exact recipe, portions of ingredients, and procedure. After 3 minutes and 42 seconds of mechanized kneading, the dough nicely reached my point of pasta, and I stopped the mixer. Next, I allowed the dough to rest for 20 minutes, at the end of which I formed the dough mass into a smooth ball as shown in the 2nd picture below. Significant difference! The dough had uniform flesh and skin, ready to undergo the initial fermentation. (Dear Mario, thank you for the flour.)


I'm working on my dough procedure (still a lot to learn) I do not understand how you can knead the dough so little with your Santos.
I know with long fermentation you should knead as little as possible but on the youtube videos I see often 20 minutes of kneading with fork mixer.

<a href="http://youtu.be/Q6gYIS0mAgs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/Q6gYIS0mAgs</a>


Can you please enlighten me ?

Cheers,
Christophe


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2121 on: June 25, 2013, 01:35:09 AM »
Mistake!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 06:16:47 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2122 on: June 25, 2013, 06:16:55 AM »
Hi Omid,

Too bad for your flour, but very informative post, thanks!

the flour probably be poorly stored, the bag was still far from the expiration date ?

That's why I was afraid to order a Caputo pizzeria bag, I wish they sell 10kg bags.

On the technical data of the flour we can read: temperature storage (fresh and airy place) 15-18°C


I'm working on my dough procedure (still a lot to learn) I do not understand how you can knead the dough so little with your Santos.
I know with long fermentation you should knead as little as possible but on the youtube videos I see often 20 minutes of kneading with fork mixer.

http://youtu.be/Q6gYIS0mAgs

Can you please enlighten me ?

Cheers,
Christophe


Dear Sub, yes, I think the flour was not stored under proper conditions. The expiration date printed on the bag is Nov. 18, 2013.

In your above-referenced post, you wrote, "I do not understand how you can knead the dough so little with your Santos. I know with long fermentation you should knead as little as possible but on the youtube videos I see often 20 minutes of kneading with fork mixer. Can you please enlighten me?"

Santos fork mixer handles dough differently than professional fork mixers such as those manufactured by Pietroberto or Mecnosud, which is the one used by Mr. Roberto Caporuscio in the video. Since the dough capacity of Santos is much lower and its fork speed way faster than a professional fork mixer, it intensifies the process of dough mixing. As a result, dough development happens much faster.

The dough capacity of Santos is 5 kilos. (The second dough batch that I prepared yesterday, in Reply #2117 above, weighed 2.5 kilos.) In contrast, the dough capacity of Roberto's Mecnosud is 60 kilos. (The dough batch in the Kesté video probably weighed over 40 kilos.) In addition, the fork speed of Santos is 84 RPM (revolutions per minute) while the fork speed of Roberto's Mecnosud is about 30 RPM. So, I believe the inverse relation between the "dough capacities" and "fork speeds" of the aforementioned mixers accounts for the amount of time needed by each mixer to develop a dough batch.

Santo fork mixer is an interesting mixer. I did not think about it this way at all in the beginning. In fact, I used to execrate it as a useless piece of junk. However, once I took the time and diligence to understand how it works, and accordingly learned how to effectively manipulate it, I began liking the mixer. It is not an easy, autopilot type of mixer; nonetheless, it can prove to be a very instrumental tool for home-bakers who work with highly hydrated doughs. So far, I have gone all the way up to 110% of hydration, without any problems, in making certain types of bread doughs with Santos. The mixer functions well with high-hydrated doughs, but not as good with hydrations under 60%, in my opinion.

By the way, reducing its fork speed to 40 RPM or below—which I finally managed to do with the help of a friend—will not make Santos a better mixer for the purpose of making Neapolitan dough. Why? Because the dough capacity—hence, dough weight—is so low that no effective mixing and kneading get done; the dough sticks to the walls of the bowl and stays there (because of its relatively light weight) rather than falling down on the fork and bottom of the bowl. I hope this makes sense.

The first video below, demonstrates a Santos mixer, which is mine, working at 84 RPM. The second video, shows a Santos, which belongs to a member of this forum, at work at 21 RPM. The former is kneading a dough (about 3 kilos) that is higher in hydration than the latter (about 5 kilos or more). Good day!

Omid

Santos Dough Mixer (No. 18)


Pietrosantos Model II
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 07:27:10 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline vmangiacapra

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2123 on: June 25, 2013, 10:48:31 AM »
Sir, I have a Santos mixer also, I would like to slow down the fork speed.  Would you share with how I can achieve this.  Much appreciated, Vin

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2124 on: June 26, 2013, 02:33:48 AM »
Sir, I have a Santos mixer also, I would like to slow down the fork speed.  Would you share with how I can achieve this.  Much appreciated, Vin


Dear Vincenzo, it was about a year ago when my friend (an electronic engineer who lives in Russia now) helped me to reduce the RPM of my Santos motor without any modifications to the mixer. Unfortunately, I do not remember the details of how he accomplished this. Basically, he used an electronic module that, if I remember correctly, would send electric pulses to the Santos motor at longer intervals (without reducing the 60Hz frequency) in order to emulate 30Hz or lower frequencies, hence reducing the RPM of the motor by half or lower. I will send him an email to provide me with details. I will inform you.

You may experience it differently, but according to my experience, Santos fork mixer does not function well at very low fork speeds. Please, take a look at the second video in Reply #2122 above, and notice that the dough batch (which is about 5 kilos or more) is hardly getting kneaded at fork speed of 21 RPM—simply because the dough is not massive/heavy enough to promptly disengage itself from the wall of the mixer bowl and fall down to reengage with the fork. The smaller the dough batch, the worse this problem becomes. How big of a dough batch do you usually make? Again, because of its physical limitations, Santos can never function like a Pietroberto or Mecnosud fork mixer, if that is what you have in mind.

Please, check out the video below (which features a Pietroberto fork mixer, model La Vittoria 200, of much higher dough capacity than Santos), and compare its kneading action with the second Santos video above. Good night!

PITA Bread Fork Mixer BIMATIC Pita Machine Arabic Bread Automatic Line Bakery Equipment BIMATIC

« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 03:12:35 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline vmangiacapra

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2125 on: June 26, 2013, 07:50:19 AM »
Thank you for a quick and very informative response.

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2126 on: July 01, 2013, 07:09:05 AM »
Hi Omid,

I looks like Don Condurro is doing well,  some instagram photosof Paulie Gee from april 2013.


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2127 on: July 06, 2013, 06:24:26 AM »
Hi Omid,

I looks like Don Condurro is doing well,  some instagram photosof Paulie Gee from april 2013.


Thank you for the link and pictures. Below is also a recent picture of Da Michele pizzas shot by a patron, Umberto Sinno. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2128 on: July 07, 2013, 06:50:54 PM »
Here is an interesting Da Michele video, showing how the banconista opens a dough ball, which appears to be way in excess of 250 grams. The dough seems soft, yet possessing apropos strength. The Youtube video was posted on July 3, 2013. Naples can get very hot during summer, and we know that Da Michele does not use dough coolers. In the beginning of the video, notice the three dough trays that are brought up from the cellar and placed next to four other trays already there.

Antica Pizzeria Da Michele


Some of you may know Carmen Giannattasio (http://www.carmengiannattasio.com), one of the new promising voices in the world of opera. She is one of my favorite sopranos, and I was so surprised to come upon the next video, which features Carmen at Gino Sorbillo's. Good day!

Carmen Giannattasio ospite alla Pizzeria Sorbillo


Carmen Giannattasio promo video
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2129 on: July 07, 2013, 06:53:21 PM »
Those Da michele pizzas look great as always. Omid what is your dough weight at Burnos? They seemed like they were pretty big. Maybe 275?


Offline Chaze215

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2130 on: July 07, 2013, 07:56:02 PM »
Omid, what do they/you use for their bench flour?
Chaz

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2131 on: July 08, 2013, 09:12:28 PM »
Those Da michele pizzas look great as always. Omid what is your dough weight at Burnos? They seemed like they were pretty big. Maybe 275?

Dear Jefferey, since I am only an employee of Bruno Pizzeria, I do not feel it is decorous for me to publicly talk about certain details of the pizzeria's operations that may constitute a breach of trust between me and the management. I thank you for your understanding. Have a great day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2132 on: July 08, 2013, 09:12:39 PM »
Omid, what do they/you use for their bench flour?

Dear Chaz, it is no secret (somehow I do not like using the word!) that majority of Neapolitan pizzerias, or the ones that I know of, including Bruno, use the same "00" wheat flour with which they make dough day after day.

Philosophically viewed, a reason that I like to refrain from using the word "secret" in the context of making Neapolitan dough and pizza is that it can be misleading sometimes. Often, we hear the question, "What are the secrets of making Neapolitan dough?"—as though all complications and difficulties of the art will effortlessly fade away just by the sheer act of selfless knowing. In my assessment, although I am still an amateur pizza-maker, there are no secrets—but revelations that dialectically unconceal themselves through the passage of time and through hard-work that is concomitant with unwavering commitment. It is a task that requires toiling at learning. And, as a cultural activity, it entails having meaningful dialogues on the subject with other trustful enthusiasts, where everyone is sincerely willing to listen, evaluate, and point out prejudices (preconceived notions) of one another without fears. I felt I should share with you and others this particular observation of mine. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Chaze215

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2133 on: July 08, 2013, 09:36:55 PM »
Thank you Omid for your answer and insight on this matter. I always enjoy reading your in depth replies and posts. Thanks again!
Chaz

Offline napoletana4germany

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2134 on: July 09, 2013, 05:54:35 AM »
Dear Larry, I have some practical familiarity with the method of tightly wrapping a piece of dough in a cloth. I believe it is known as "legato". Here are a couple of videos I found on the subject on YouTube:

legatura della pasta madre
Lievito naturale legato

Omid



hello Omid,

I refer to an older topic on that you mentioned in this thread.
For my goal to reproduce the Franco Manca dough, I want growing a "real Italian pasta madre" with a lot of lactic acid bacteria and acetic acid bacteria as little as possible:
flour 100%, water 59%, salt 3%, criscito 1,7% (converted from the recipe you've posted)

This is what I want to achieve with "legatura della pasta madre" as the Italians call wrapping the firm leaven in a kitchen towel, as you wrote earlier.

Because I couldn't find an exact instruction in English language I improvised and followed the instructions from this interesting approach:
http://vivalafocaccia.com/2010/02/27/video-ricetta-per-rinfrescare-il-lievito-naturale/

The possibility of kneading small amounts of stiff sourdough with a pasta machine is very effective! Only I do not know whether to enforce the gluten development in this way or whether the dough culture should do this on its own at the right temperature and the right time? what do you think?

After kneading with the pasta machine I have the dough (unlike the video) not scored and placed in the refrigerator, but wrapped in a cloth and laced.

Now at this point I need some help: at what temperature and for how long do you think the "legato" should rest?
I did leave it at room temperature (about 68°F) overnight (about 7 hours).
But the vinegary smell in the morning has clearly shown that it was either too warm, to long or both.

And further, it would also be interesting what the exact difference between the scored pasta madre (as seen on the Caputo sack and in the video of Viva la Focaccia) and the wrapped/legato pasta marde?
The one way enables relaxation, while the other type is a (wrong) vacuum. What does what? When using which?

Thanks, Todi

Mal

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2135 on: July 09, 2013, 06:36:40 AM »
Todi,
Regarding your concerns about acetic acid bacteria:

From the various academic studies I have read on starter cultures, I would say the chances of an acetobacter being resident in your starter are slim.

However the lactic acid baceteria that do tend to populate a sourdough culture can produce BOTH lactic acid AND acetic acid. When they do so, it's in equal
proportions* One option is to keep your starter at warmer temperatures to favor a lactic acid and ethanol fermentation but you may end up with higher overall acidity due to increased bacterial metabolic activity.

A better strategy is to keep your culture and ferment your dough in such a way that favors yeast growth. There are several theories on this forum about how to achieve this. My personal experience has been: frequent feeding of the starter culture with higher proportions of retained starter just before you use it in your pizza dough.

edit: *This only applies to heterolactic fermentation. Homolactic bacteria produce only lactic acid and do not form a "symbiotic" relationship with yeast. However the studies I've read suggest most successful, stable sourdough cultures are predominantly populated by heterofermentative species.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 06:46:51 AM by Mal »

Mal

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2136 on: July 09, 2013, 06:57:46 AM »
Additionally:
The method of keeping a stiff "pasta madre" (as shown in the video you linked to above)  is employed by italian bakers, often for making such sweetened, enriched breads as Panettone and Pan d'Oro. For those methods, the frequent refresh (which I alluded to in my previous post) prior to using the starter is the normal practice.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 07:01:04 AM by Mal »

Offline napoletana4germany

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2137 on: July 09, 2013, 08:19:39 AM »
hello Malakai,

Thank you for your quick reply and explanation!

I know that most of you here use a "normal leaven" and thus achieve good to great results.

But there are two reasons that encourage me to experiment with pasta madre:
First, because I know that pasta madre is used in sweet pastry and pastry where acid flavors would interferes.
For me, the sweetness of the San Marzano tomato is worthless if the dough contains a touch too much acid.
The other reason are the folks at Franco Manca that also use a kind of pasta madre, as you can see in the second picture:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic, 14506.msg161287.html # msg161287

Why do they use the somewhat more complicated pasta madre instead of ordinary leaven?
Due to the temperature? Probably not, London has no sub-tropical climate.
Make it only for the course, because of the show-off effect? Maybe.
They do it because of tradition? Probably.
They do it to avoid unwanted acids in taste? Very likely.

These are my thoughts and the reasons why I want to understand using pasta madre.

Todi

Mal

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2138 on: July 09, 2013, 11:18:54 AM »
Todi,

For what it's worth, I've had the pizza at Franco Manca and I think you might be surprised how acidic it is. It's not unbearably sour but definitely the acidity is prominent compared to a non-sourdough leavened crust.

Offline napoletana4germany

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2139 on: July 09, 2013, 12:30:06 PM »
I am surprised! The one Margherita I eat there (Brixton) was not acidity at all.
But all of my tries with normal leaven were. Therefore I'm searching for that possibility with natural leaven but without sourness.