Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 483088 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2150 on: July 20, 2013, 09:29:12 AM »
The first pizza was baked at 4:30 PM (i.e., exactly 9 hours & 13 minutes after the dough balls were formed). See the 3rd and 4th pictures below. At that point in time, the Ferrara's dome had not reached optimum temperature yet; therefore I had to resort to doming the pizza in order to achieve a short bake time. Results: soft and flavorful pizza base. My boss (Peter) and I were impressed.

The second pizza was baked at 9:35 PM. See the 5th and 6th pictures below. Although I did not time the bake, I am certain that it took less than 60 seconds. The handleability of the dough disc on the oven floor, which was a bit over 900ᴼF, was uncomplicated and trouble-free. Results: perceptibly soft and flavorful pizza base. Again, my boss and I were impressed.

The third pizza was baked at 10:21 PM. See the 7th picture below. Although I did not time the bake, I am positive that it took less than 60 seconds.

The 4th pizza was baked at 10:34 PM. See the 8th-11th pictures hereunder. This time, I timed the bake, which was 46 seconds.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that the General Mills Neapolitan flour has made an appreciable impression on both Peter and me. However, this is only an initial impression; more future tests need to be conducted for the purpose of more critically evaluating the GM dough for its gastronomical qualities and capabilities.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:44:24 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2151 on: July 20, 2013, 09:29:26 AM »
Continued . . .
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:16:57 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2152 on: July 20, 2013, 09:29:41 AM »
At last, I would like to leave you with a picture of the last, surviving dough ball, which I brought back home with me last night. As shown in the 1st picture, below, the dough ball was still good enough to morph into a pizza—17 hours & 12 minutes after the dough ball was formed. Yesterday, the dough ball was made at 7:17 AM, and the picture was shot today at 12:29 AM. So, as shown below, I actually fashioned the dough ball into a pizza. Of course, it was too late to bake it at night. Good weekend, everyone!

Omid
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:26:51 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24066
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2153 on: July 20, 2013, 10:33:18 AM »
Omid,

Your pizzas baked in the Peter's Ferrara oven with the dough made with the General Mills Neapolitan flour looks fantastic.  :chef:  I would have liked to have tasted one of those pizzas.

Norma

Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2154 on: July 20, 2013, 12:55:16 PM »
those last pictures make me smile!  actually, the first ones do too. 

so, compared to the Gold Standard, how different is the GMills flour?
bill

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7215
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2155 on: July 20, 2013, 01:04:33 PM »
The last baked pizza looks amazing!  I want pizza now!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2156 on: July 21, 2013, 07:06:43 PM »
Omid, Your pizzas baked in the Peter's Ferrara oven with the dough made with the General Mills Neapolitan flour looks fantastic.  :chef:  I would have liked to have tasted one of those pizzas.
Norma

those last pictures make me smile!  actually, the first ones do too. so, compared to the Gold Standard, how different is the GMills flour?
bill

The last baked pizza looks amazing!  I want pizza now!

Thank you, friends! I wished I could have enjoyed the pizzas with you all. I hope to meet all of you soon at a future pizza summit. When I did my post, above, on the General Mills Neapolitan flour, I should have included the picture of the GM pizza I baked at Craig's Pizza Summit II. Below is the picture (and Diane's videos) to compare with the above pictures, as far as visually possible. The dough for the pizza was prepared by Craig, using sourdough culture (while I used fresh yeast), 60% hydration, and about (please correct me if I am wrong) 24+24 hours of fermentation at about 60 or 64ᴼF. Good day!

Omid Opening a Dough
20130629_190001
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pulcinella

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 60
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2157 on: July 28, 2013, 06:54:50 PM »
Allow me to make my contribution to Craig's original discourse. This issue, of course, can be approached from different perspectives, normative, ethical, or else, each with its own persuasive force. I enjoyed the different perspectives the members have brought to this discussion so far. Let me see if I can add to them. 

§1. Art
Viewed from one perspective, art is a medium of expressing the human experiences, which are of infinite range. For instance, human desires, emotions, ambitions, and et cetera. Viewed from another perspective, art is about possibilities (derived from Latin word posse, "to be able"; hence, "capable of happening"). In this narrow sense, art, in its totality, is significative, amongst other things, of life's polarities, ironies, and paradoxes of human thoughts and actions. An ideal of artistic expression, since the time of German Romanticism which swept across Europe in 18th and 19th centuries, is to experience every side of polarities, never to become rigid or static, never to become confined, the prisoner of any one mode of thought or way of life, but always to be in pursuit of the infinite. Goethe's Faust proclaimed, "Insofar as I am static, I am enslaved." It was the Romantic yearning for every experience, for infinity, that led Faust to sell his soul to the devil.

§2. Art and Tradition
Art creates, it does not just copy. The great German Romantic composer Ludwig van Beethoven understood that to create new music, the old laws had to be broken or modified. So he did, courageously. For years, many considered his music unusual, improper, deviant, ignoble, or even morally distasteful. However, today, the maestro's music is considered one of the indispensable pillars of the classical repertoire. According to philosopher Walter Kaufmann:

"The great artist does not stick to any established code; yet his work is not lawless but has structure and form. Beethoven did not conform to the rules of Haydn or Mozart; yet his symphonies have form throughout. Their form and law Beethoven created with them [namely, the legacies of Hayden and Mozart]. To create involves going 'beyond. . .'."

Art creates; tradition preserves. The tension between art and tradition has alway been there, often giving birth to change. Both Haydn and Mozart also experienced this tension in their own times. Both had to break or modify some rules, set by their predecessors, in order to gain immortality. As another example, consider the High Renaissance artist Michelangelo. The man, who sculpted "David", respected and copied ancient Greek and Roman statues, yet he set out to better them within their own traditions. It takes venturesome and valorous individuals to challenge the standards of their time and to go beyond, what Friedrich Nietzsche called, "good and evil". The history of art is abound with paradigm-shifters such as Michelangelo, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven who changed the standards of their times.

If making Neapolitan pizza is considered an art and tradition, then one needs to somehow deal with the tension between the two.

§3. Change/Evolution
It is a given that change or flux is an all-pervading, omnipresent fact of the natural world and history of mankind. In my opinion, the history of Neapolitan pizza, as I understand it, has not been immune to the flux. As I comprehend the history of pizzas of Naples (which is reflected in my own blog), what we call "Neapolitan pizza" today—is an aftermath of a long evolutionary process. The pre-modern pizzas of Naples (i.e., prior to the advent of modernity in 1600s) have very little in common with the modern pizzas of Naples in early 1700s and onward. As discussed in my blog, each description of pizzas provided by Bartolomeo Scappi (1500s), Giambattista Basile (1600s), Vincinzo Corrado (1700s), Alexander Dumas (1800s), Francesco de Bourcard (1800s), and Raffaele Esposito (1800s) varies from one another, sometimes substantially and sometimes insubstantially. Given the past history of pizzas of Naples, there may not be any guarantee that what will be deemed as Neapolitan pizza a century from now will conform to the standards of today.

§4. The People
According to Antonio Pace, "Neapolitan pizza has no inventors, no fathers, no masters, but is the fruit of the creativity of the Neapolitan people." Yes, the people! But, “people” is a tricky concept. It definitely does not imply a single individual. It may not convey a process of establishing consensus among the people either. Perhaps, this is where a crucial role of artists becomes essential: to creatively bring to conscious awareness the spirit of a people, their aspirations, their creative potentials, their existential possibilities.

Good day!

Here's my angle. Lets not confuse "tradition" with taste or quality. For many of us europeans, America which is my new beloved home is land of inovation (which is its strength) but sometimes making changes in things already well established. America being a young nation (about 300 years of history), not always easy to completely understand meaning of tradition. (my opinion is Americans value technology and inovation over tradition.) We want make TRADITIONAL pizza napoletana but we miserably fail to understand the tradition --- ending up reinventing the wheel. Almost 99% neapolitan pizzerias in USA are examples in my opinon. They claim to offer "traditional/authentic neapolitan pizza" but what you get is scandalous corruption of the tradition/authenticity. Their prides blinds them to their ignorance. I almost fell in the same trap till a member convinced me of my ignorance. After months of pizza making i was ready to open up my TRADITIONAL NEAPOLITAN PIZZERIA I even leased leased a space, bought professional mixer and the rest. I know it would have been a prosperous pizzeria but prosperity is no synonym for "tradition". The advice that really stayed with me was that once you open up your pizzeria, the business will likely have a life of its own almost independent of your efforts. So, make sure you do everything right as much as possible from the beginning.  Still keep learning .. I have more questions than answers .. should neapolitan pizzerias use fridge or chilled box or room temp to ferment dough? should they ferment dough balls in individual containers or dough trays? should they open dough balls with neapolitan slap or on knuckles? can they use unusal cheeses? Must they use 00 flour? <<Ciro Salvo whose a AVPN instructor recently used a blend of 00 flour and WHOLE WHEAT.>> http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/torre-annunziata-pizzeria-masse-qui-ce-ciro-salvo-che-fa-delle-pizze-favolose/47810/

What about weight of dough balls, 250, 260, 270 grams? da Michele whose pizzas I have had many times can get away with 300 grams or more (look at the size of the pizza in the picture) and not using olive oil and bufala. I will be damned by critics if I use whole wheat, dough ball of 300 grams or more and seed oil. Where do you draw the line? Somebody told me this is not like rules of jungle, Ciro is Ciro and da Michele is da Michele, you are none. They have earned the right, what have you done to earn the same?
 
I thank Craig and other members for keeping this discussion alive. By the way, any one knows the history of 00 type flour? Did Antonio Testa, Domenico Testa and Raffaele Esposito use 00 flour <<with proper W and falling number>> when they made neapolitan pizzas for the royalty of Naples? Did they have the technlology to produce 00 flours in those days? If not, when did it start?

Dear Pulcinella, you made some critical points in your post. Mark Twain once said, "Get your facts first, and then you can distort [or modify] them as much as you please." Mozart first had to learn the rules of Baroque and Rococo compositions before being able to break or modify them for the sake of engendering his Classical compositions. In turn, Beethoven had to first master the preceding rules of Classical compositions before evolving them into his Romantic compositions.

In the same vein, if I were to establish my own Neapolitan pizzeria and uphold the tradition that has made it a possibility, first it is imperative for me to understand the tradition (which is an oral tradition for the most part, hence, not readily accessible and understandable) as a fundamental frame of reference that provides a mode of commitment, and, more specifically, as a system of thought, behavior, and rituals shared by a group of people to whom it is entrusted. Next, I would take a considerable amount of time to put to practice the system of thought, behavior, and rituals in making Neapolitan pizzas—the way Neapolitans do—until I have a relative mastery over them. So, I would have to forgo using non-"00" flour, dough fermentation in a refrigerator or chilled box, and the rest of the items you enumerated above. A tradition falls apart when there is no commitment to it and its prescribed norms. And, I am not saying that one should mimic all the norms like a parrot who utters words without understanding their meanings. In my estimation, there are sound reasons underlying the norms.

Once I have mastery over the tradition, which takes years, then I can commence to become creative about it. Ciro Salvo and Da Michele do what they do because they have already gone on a long journey which you and I have just begun. The journey is an odyssey, and every odyssey has an inbuilt sense of return to a distant past. To move forward, we must look back. Good day!

Omid

I bring the discussion here from Craig's thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26505.0.html
because we aren't talking 00 flour any more.

The neapolitan pizzauolo in your blog said

"If foreigners thoroughly understand the Neapolitan pizza tradition from our vantage point and learn how to fully appreciate it, then they may not need to distort it at all according to their own sensibility or in ways that are incompatible with our tradition. Of course, they should make pizza the way they enjoy, but should not name it 'Neapolitan pizza' if it does not conform to our tradition. Neapolitan pizza is a revered part of our culture and identity as the Neapolitan people, and it displeases us to see it deformed by opportunism or ignorance, as foreigners would not like to see someone defacing symbols that are sacred to them."

What doyou think about AVPN? isn't it the job of AVPN to make us know/preserve the tradition?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2158 on: July 28, 2013, 07:44:11 PM »
I bring the discussion here from Craig's thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26505.0.html
because we aren't talking 00 flour any more.

The neapolitan pizzauolo in your blog said

"If foreigners thoroughly understand the Neapolitan pizza tradition from our vantage point and learn how to fully appreciate it, then they may not need to distort it at all according to their own sensibility or in ways that are incompatible with our tradition. Of course, they should make pizza the way they enjoy, but should not name it 'Neapolitan pizza' if it does not conform to our tradition. Neapolitan pizza is a revered part of our culture and identity as the Neapolitan people, and it displeases us to see it deformed by opportunism or ignorance, as foreigners would not like to see someone defacing symbols that are sacred to them."

What doyou think about AVPN? isn't it the job of AVPN to make us know/preserve the tradition?

Frankly, I do not have full knowledge of AVPN's means and ends, so I can not intelligently speak for them. For me, personally, it is a matter of personal integrity and sense of duty. When a pizzeria declares to the public that it offers "traditional Neapolitan pizza", that is a great burden. The "burden" is precisely the "tradition"! Can the pizzeria burden itself with the manifold responsibilities that the tradition demands of it? Or, is it going to hide behind the guise of the tradition?—for, you know, the pizzeria needs to make money. There is a dichotomy of responsibilities that more often than not come into conflict with one another. On one hand, there are the "culinary responsibilities", and, on the other, the "business responsibilities". Sometimes business concerns swallows up serious concerns for culinary matters.

Experience has taught me that AVPN certificates and rave reviews are often no concrete proofs of traditionality of a Neapolitan pizzeria. I put the emphasis on a pizzeria's "integrity" and "sense of duty".

In the United States, the risks for establishing a "traditional Neapolitan pizzeria" are so manifold (even if a pizzeria's owner and pizza-makers are from Italy) that one may doubt if this fruit can ever ripen. The scope and tower-building of the pizza business—not excluding the pressures of the business environment and the consumer demands—have grown enormously, and with this also the probability that an aspiring pizzaiolo grows weary or gets sidetracked while still learning, or allows himself to be detained somewhere along the way—so that he never attains his proper rank, the proper height. There are many factors that can lead him to delay somewhere along the way. The genuine aspirant feels the burden and the duty of hundreds of attempts and temptations; he risks himself constantly, paying no heed to the babbles and excuses while keeping his strength and enthusiasm in harness. Not easy!

Omid
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 03:11:36 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2159 on: August 07, 2013, 04:16:16 AM »
I would like to welcome my Facebook friend Augusto Folliero to San Diego, California! Augusto is a young, gentlemanly, and energetic pizzaiolo who was born and raised in Naples, Italy. He recently moved from his homeland to San Diego in order to continue his career as a Neapolitan pizzaiolo at the newest Neapolitan pizzeria, known as Pommarola, here in town.

Last night, I paid him a visit at the pizzeria, where I enjoyed a "La Regina" pizza (crushed tomatoes, buffalo mozzarella, basil, and olive oil). I would characterize his style of pizza similar to that of Pizzeria di Matteo in Naples. In fact, Salvatore di Matteo and Augusto are good friends.

The Pizzeria Pommarola is equipped with a gas oven made by Marra Forni. Although it is a gas oven, Augusto fuels the oven at the same time with some wood logs, which he places to the right side of the gas outlet inside the oven. His level of skills in managing his dough and the small-size oven enables him to simultaneously bake 3 to 4 pizzas (12 inches in diameter) in 73 seconds or less per pizza. The whole time that I spent there, sitting about 8 feet away from the oven, no pizza exceeded 73-second bake. Moreover, his oven management skills did not allow the oven floor to grow cold while he perpetually kept loading and unloading 3 to 4 pizzas at a time. His time management skills in dividing his attention between assembling new pizzas on the bancone and baking pizzas already inside the oven were also impressive. At last, his dough opening skills, employing the so-called "Neapolitan slap", were worthy of attention.

It was a pleasure for me to finally meet Augusto. I wish him success! I am also thankful to Mr. Fabio Speziali, a co-owner, for his hospitality.

Omid
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 06:52:59 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline mkevenson

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2723
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
  • Roos! Protector of Fowl
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2160 on: August 07, 2013, 10:10:36 AM »
Salvatore di Matteo and Omid , looks like you could be brothers.

Omid, thanks for sharing with us.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline Pulcinella

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 60
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2161 on: August 07, 2013, 07:16:17 PM »
I would like to welcome my Facebook friend Augusto Folliero to San Diego, California! Augusto is a young, gentlemanly, and energetic pizzaiolo who was born and raised in Naples, Italy. He recently moved from his homeland to San Diego in order to continue his career as a Neapolitan pizzaiolo at the newest Neapolitan pizzeria, known as Pommarola, here in town.

Last night, I paid him a visit at the pizzeria, where I enjoyed a "La Regina" pizza (crushed tomatoes, buffalo mozzarella, basil, and olive oil). I would characterize his style of pizza similar to that of Pizzeria di Matteo in Naples. In fact, Salvatore di Matteo and Augusto are good friends.

The Pizzeria Pommarola is equipped with a gas oven made by Marra Forni. Although it is a gas oven, Augusto fuels the oven at the same time with some wood logs, which he places to the right side of the gas outlet inside the oven. His level of skills in managing his dough and the small-size oven enables him to simultaneously bake 3 to 4 pizzas (12 inches in diameter) in 73 seconds or less per pizza. The whole time that I spent there, sitting about 8 feet away from the oven, no pizza exceeded 73-second bake. Moreover, his oven management skills did not allow the oven floor to grow cold while he perpetually kept loading and unloading 3 to 4 pizzas at a time. His time management skills in dividing his attention between assembling new pizzas on the bancone and baking pizzas already inside the oven were also impressive. At last, his dough opening skills, employing the so-called "Neapolitan slap", were worthy of attention.

It was a pleasure for me to finally meet Augusto. I wish him success! I am also thankful to Mr. Fabio Speziali, a co-owner, for his hospitality.

Omid

Excellent post Omid. It brings to light another side of Naples pizzas that we're not used to very much. but I gotta tell you…. that Marra Forni gas oven is PROBLEM as you know with no doubt. Augusto deserves better oven than that that. I bet many members here didn't expect to see pizza like that from a neapolitan pizzaiuolo, I mean Augusto. Many many pizzas in Naples are like that. Da Michele and Ciro an few others are anomalies which I most definitely prefer over the rest. Notwithstanding the rest are part of Naples landscape.

Pictures below prove my point maybe?

1. Augusto Folliero Pizza
2. Port'alba Pizza
3. Del Presidente Pizza
4. Straita Pizza
5. Trianon Da Ciro pizza
6. Di Matteo Pizza

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2013/01/serious-eats-guide-to-eating-pizza-in-naples-napoli-italy-neapolitan-pizza.html

In this forum we're so accustomed to see neapolitan pizzas populated with leopard spots. anything less we disregard quickly. Some of us shoot for super super long fermentation just to have the magical "spots". When I spent 4 months in Naples last year, the pizzaioli <<including Ciro Salvo>> told me that no naples pizzerias intentionally ferment dough 48 hrs. Not even da Michele. Many Naples pizzerias make 2 or 3 dough batches a day. No cold fermentation. I suspect that's what Augusto does. Grant it Augusto's pizzas would have been many many times nicer if baked in a true neapolitan oven rather than the inferior gas oven. Poor guy must be having hard time with the oven. I guess now I see what you mean when you said a pizzeria's business decisions come in conflict with it's culinary efforts sometimes. Management/manager/owner v. Pizzaiolo. IMHO America has set a new trend in neapolitan pizza making that does not like challenges of dough making much. Not all of course. How can refrigerating dough pass as SKILLFUL dough making?

Offline Pulcinella

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 60
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2162 on: August 07, 2013, 07:30:45 PM »
1 more Augusto Folliero pizza I found on the net
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 04:24:01 AM by Pulcinella »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2163 on: August 15, 2013, 06:52:40 PM »
I see that in the Antico dough balls, some balls have began to form large bubbles. What is the general thought on the merits or drawbacks of this happening? How do you guys handle this? Pop them?

Dear JF, all pizzaioli, whether professional or non-professional, have to deal with the "big bubbles" that may appear on dough balls. Some are of the belief that professional pizzaioli never have such bubbles in their dough balls. That is not true at all. I have personally encountered Ciro Salvo's and Da Michele dough balls that acutely exhibited such large bubbles. Again, my point is that all pizzaioli need to learn how to deal with the bubbles.

Generally speaking, a merit of the bubbles is simply that fermentation is taking place. On the other hand, a major drawback is that a large bubble, especially when popped, on the surface of a dough disc, not cornicione, may represent a weak or vulnerable spot, meaning that it may tear on the oven floor if the pizza is not carefully manipulated with a turning peel. Briefly put, the spot where a large bubble appears on the surface of a raw dough disc (which initially was on the surface of the dough ball) often has a lower density, hence is "weaker" or more "vulnerable", than the rest of the spots. The lower density also partly accounts for appearance of the undesirable burnt bubbles on the cornicione. Under such conditions, skillful handling of dough balls on the bancone and oven floor is of import. Good day!

Omid

Dear JF, I have brought the discussion on large dough bubbles from Wheelman's thread to this thread in order not to interrupt his thread. I thought I share with you a Youtube video, attached hereunder, for the sake of demonstrating one way, amongst others, of handling dough bubbles on or about the cornicioni. See time-marks 1:21—1:23, 1:28, and 3:29—3:31. Notice how pizzaiolo Gaetano Fazio press down or poke the bubbles with his finger tip. Several times, I witnessed both Ciro Salvo and Da Michele pizzaioli lightly muffling large bubbles on the cornicioni with the hypothenar muscles of their palms while opening dough balls with the so-called "Neapolitan slap". In my experience, how to deal with the bubbles is circumstantial. Good day!

Omid

Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2164 on: August 24, 2013, 03:58:23 AM »
Dear Pulcinella, I hope these are what you were looking for. Click on the images to magnify them. Good day!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 04:00:31 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 707
  • Location: Belgium
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2165 on: August 24, 2013, 04:50:05 AM »
And the new one


Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2166 on: August 24, 2013, 05:36:00 AM »
And the new one

Dear Sub, I thank you very much for kindly posting the technical data for "00" Pizza Metro flour. Do you have, by any chance, the data sheet for Caputo "00" Super flour? If you do, will you post it here, please? Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 05:38:13 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15889
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2167 on: August 24, 2013, 08:25:20 AM »
What exactly is reinforced about the Rinforzato? Why is the W number highlighted on the Rinforzato sheet?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 707
  • Location: Belgium
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2168 on: August 24, 2013, 03:56:30 PM »
Dear Sub, I thank you very much for kindly posting the technical data for "00" Pizza Metro flour. Do you have, by any chance, the data sheet for Caputo "00" Super flour? If you do, will you post it here, please? Good day!

Omid

You're welcome,

Unfortunately not, if I find it I'll come post it, you can found technical data for the other flours on caputoflour.com

I only know it's a 220-240W flour optimal for 6-10 hours at ambient temperature and for 24 hours in winter (from Ciro Salvo post on pizza.it)

An Italian thread with pictures
Caputo 00 Super sacco giallo ...coming soon

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2169 on: August 26, 2013, 07:09:20 AM »
What exactly is reinforced about the Rinforzato? Why is the W number highlighted on the Rinforzato sheet?

Dear Craig, I am not sure what is the answer to your question. I do not even know what the term "reinforced" is supposed to denote. Gluten quality, quantity, both, or else? Nonetheless, allow me to make an appreciation, however narrow or inconclusive, of the flour. Having experimented with Caputo "00" Rinforzato for some time, and disregarding, for now, the Rinforzato's chemico-rheological data published by Caputo, I can tell you that Rinforzato is indubitably a much stronger flour than Caputo "00" Pizzeria. The flour is capable of forming very robust gluten network. Because of the tenacious nature of its gluten, it can more readily handle higher hydration percentages than Pizzeria flour. And, in my assessment, one would be, perhaps, well-advised to use higher hydration levels, than one would use with Pizzeria flour, in making Rinforzato dough in order to achieve an appropriate degree of dough fluidity, consistency, and maturation that is conducive to production of light pizza base and cornicione.

All things being equal, per my experiments, Rinforzato dough needs a longer time interval than Pizzeria dough to reach dough maturation. And, once it reaches an optimal state of maturation, thereafter it seem to manifest a longer shelf-life than Pizzeria dough. Per my observations, Rinforzato dough can handle warm room temperatures quite well without resorts to using a marble chamber or ice chest.

In terms of flavor and texture, so far I have not noticed considerable differences between Rinforzato and Pizzeria—as long as each is given due time to be properly hydrolyzed, fermented, and matured. For me, a fruitful application of Rinforzato would entail mixing about 10‑25% (depending on the intensity of room temperature and other interrelated factors) of it with Caputo Pizzeria flour solely for the purpose of procuring a stronger dough with a longer shelf-life that can withstand warm ambient temperatures longer than Pizzeria dough can. Rinforzato-Pizzeria dough might prove to be ideal for some pizza truck operators during very warm and humid seasons when they have no control over dough temperature. Also, a proper Rinforzato-Pizzeria mixture may prove to be worthwhile for those who shoot for exceedingly long fermentation, either using room temperature or an ice chest, so that later there would be no need to struggle with the dough on the bancone and/or oven floor. If properly formulated and developed, Rinforzato-Pizzeria dough can, in my opinion, facilitate dough handleability both on the bancone and oven floor. Please, see the following related post which I posted here on Nov. 5, 2012:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg221764/topicseen.html#msg221764

Now, let us take a look at Caputo's chemico-rheological data for the Rinforzato flour, of which two versions exist, one dated January 2008 and the other April 2013. Also, let us take a look at Caputo's chemico-rheological data for the Pizzeria flour, of which also two versions exist, one dated October 2006 and the other April 2013. See the images below. (Click on the images to magnify.)

As you can see, there are some discrepancies between the two versions for each flour. With regard to the "W" factor for Rinforzato, the data sheet of Jan. 2008 discloses "280-320" while the data sheet of April 2013 discloses "300-330". Which is correct or more accurate? (Or, maybe, I am asking the wrong question!) After all the experiences that I have had with the flour so far, I am more inclined to accept the data sheet of April 2013 as more representative of the way the flour has behaved in the dough systems that I have experimented with within the last 18 months. Perchance, Tom had a good point when he remarked:

Get a bunch of sample bags and try them.  Until you use them up, those data sheets are meaningless.  You can't design a good pizza on paper or in CAD, you have to have flour in the hair on your head and no hair left up to your elbows.

I invite you to check out this short thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14175.0

Maybe, member Foodimp (that is, Mr. Fred Mortati of Orlando Foods, a U.S. importer of Caputo flours) has an explanation for the discrepancies. Could it be the case that Caputo reengineered both flours in April 2013 or earlier? Coincidentally or not, I believe that it was around April of this year or a bit earlier when Caputo slightly redesigned the prints and artworks on the 25-kilo bags for Rinforzato and Pizzeria. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:36:34 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2170 on: August 26, 2013, 10:33:02 AM »
with limited experience I can confirm that Rinforzato is a benefit to mobile pizza operation on a hot afternoon.  With very helpful advice from Omid, I made 3 different dough batches to take to our wheels on wheels pizza event last night.  one was 100% caputo pizzeria, which I used first, the second had 10% rinforzato, and the last was with 25% rinforzato.  over a 2 hour period baking pizzas like crazy, I noticed all 3 doughs developing through their window of use.  the 25% dough was last and even at the end in much better shape to handle on the table and the oven floor than either of the others.  I would recommend trying this for similar use.  i'll be experimenting further to make a better informed opinion. 
thanks Omid for the advice!
bill

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23371
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2171 on: August 26, 2013, 12:02:24 PM »
Omid,

As noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1817.msg16092/topicseen.html#msg16092, as far back as 2005, Naples 45 in New York City, which at the time was in the capable hands of Charlie Restivo, used a blend of the two Caputo flours, although back then we tended to refer to the Rinforzato simply as Rosso. I believe that Charlie is now in Orlando and, since Naples 45 is part of a mini-chain, it is possible that he is still using the blend somewhere. No doubt Charlie told me the percentages of the two flours but I did not note that information anywhere in my files.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15889
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2172 on: August 26, 2013, 10:32:23 PM »
The revised Rinforzato numbers make a lot more sense.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 707
  • Location: Belgium
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2173 on: August 28, 2013, 01:24:58 PM »
Hi Omid,

Let me share with you another great article: La classifica delle migliori 10 di Ciro Salvo al Massè di Torre Annunziata

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2174 on: August 29, 2013, 07:29:23 AM »
Hi Omid,

Let me share with you another great article: La classifica delle migliori 10 di Ciro Salvo al Massè di Torre Annunziata

Dear Sub, I sincerely thank you for the link and all your contributions to the entire forum. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/