Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 374206 times)

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Offline mkevenson

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2160 on: August 07, 2013, 10:10:36 AM »
Salvatore di Matteo and Omid , looks like you could be brothers.

Omid, thanks for sharing with us.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles


Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2161 on: August 07, 2013, 07:16:17 PM »
I would like to welcome my Facebook friend Augusto Folliero to San Diego, California! Augusto is a young, gentlemanly, and energetic pizzaiolo who was born and raised in Naples, Italy. He recently moved from his homeland to San Diego in order to continue his career as a Neapolitan pizzaiolo at the newest Neapolitan pizzeria, known as Pommarola, here in town.

Last night, I paid him a visit at the pizzeria, where I enjoyed a "La Regina" pizza (crushed tomatoes, buffalo mozzarella, basil, and olive oil). I would characterize his style of pizza similar to that of Pizzeria di Matteo in Naples. In fact, Salvatore di Matteo and Augusto are good friends.

The Pizzeria Pommarola is equipped with a gas oven made by Marra Forni. Although it is a gas oven, Augusto fuels the oven at the same time with some wood logs, which he places to the right side of the gas outlet inside the oven. His level of skills in managing his dough and the small-size oven enables him to simultaneously bake 3 to 4 pizzas (12 inches in diameter) in 73 seconds or less per pizza. The whole time that I spent there, sitting about 8 feet away from the oven, no pizza exceeded 73-second bake. Moreover, his oven management skills did not allow the oven floor to grow cold while he perpetually kept loading and unloading 3 to 4 pizzas at a time. His time management skills in dividing his attention between assembling new pizzas on the bancone and baking pizzas already inside the oven were also impressive. At last, his dough opening skills, employing the so-called "Neapolitan slap", were worthy of attention.

It was a pleasure for me to finally meet Augusto. I wish him success! I am also thankful to Mr. Fabio Speziali, a co-owner, for his hospitality.

Omid

Excellent post Omid. It brings to light another side of Naples pizzas that we're not used to very much. but I gotta tell you…. that Marra Forni gas oven is PROBLEM as you know with no doubt. Augusto deserves better oven than that that. I bet many members here didn't expect to see pizza like that from a neapolitan pizzaiuolo, I mean Augusto. Many many pizzas in Naples are like that. Da Michele and Ciro an few others are anomalies which I most definitely prefer over the rest. Notwithstanding the rest are part of Naples landscape.

Pictures below prove my point maybe?

1. Augusto Folliero Pizza
2. Port'alba Pizza
3. Del Presidente Pizza
4. Straita Pizza
5. Trianon Da Ciro pizza
6. Di Matteo Pizza

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2013/01/serious-eats-guide-to-eating-pizza-in-naples-napoli-italy-neapolitan-pizza.html

In this forum we're so accustomed to see neapolitan pizzas populated with leopard spots. anything less we disregard quickly. Some of us shoot for super super long fermentation just to have the magical "spots". When I spent 4 months in Naples last year, the pizzaioli <<including Ciro Salvo>> told me that no naples pizzerias intentionally ferment dough 48 hrs. Not even da Michele. Many Naples pizzerias make 2 or 3 dough batches a day. No cold fermentation. I suspect that's what Augusto does. Grant it Augusto's pizzas would have been many many times nicer if baked in a true neapolitan oven rather than the inferior gas oven. Poor guy must be having hard time with the oven. I guess now I see what you mean when you said a pizzeria's business decisions come in conflict with it's culinary efforts sometimes. Management/manager/owner v. Pizzaiolo. IMHO America has set a new trend in neapolitan pizza making that does not like challenges of dough making much. Not all of course. How can refrigerating dough pass as SKILLFUL dough making?

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2162 on: August 07, 2013, 07:30:45 PM »
1 more Augusto Folliero pizza I found on the net
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 04:24:01 AM by Pulcinella »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2163 on: August 15, 2013, 06:52:40 PM »
I see that in the Antico dough balls, some balls have began to form large bubbles. What is the general thought on the merits or drawbacks of this happening? How do you guys handle this? Pop them?

Dear JF, all pizzaioli, whether professional or non-professional, have to deal with the "big bubbles" that may appear on dough balls. Some are of the belief that professional pizzaioli never have such bubbles in their dough balls. That is not true at all. I have personally encountered Ciro Salvo's and Da Michele dough balls that acutely exhibited such large bubbles. Again, my point is that all pizzaioli need to learn how to deal with the bubbles.

Generally speaking, a merit of the bubbles is simply that fermentation is taking place. On the other hand, a major drawback is that a large bubble, especially when popped, on the surface of a dough disc, not cornicione, may represent a weak or vulnerable spot, meaning that it may tear on the oven floor if the pizza is not carefully manipulated with a turning peel. Briefly put, the spot where a large bubble appears on the surface of a raw dough disc (which initially was on the surface of the dough ball) often has a lower density, hence is "weaker" or more "vulnerable", than the rest of the spots. The lower density also partly accounts for appearance of the undesirable burnt bubbles on the cornicione. Under such conditions, skillful handling of dough balls on the bancone and oven floor is of import. Good day!

Omid

Dear JF, I have brought the discussion on large dough bubbles from Wheelman's thread to this thread in order not to interrupt his thread. I thought I share with you a Youtube video, attached hereunder, for the sake of demonstrating one way, amongst others, of handling dough bubbles on or about the cornicioni. See time-marks 1:21—1:23, 1:28, and 3:29—3:31. Notice how pizzaiolo Gaetano Fazio press down or poke the bubbles with his finger tip. Several times, I witnessed both Ciro Salvo and Da Michele pizzaioli lightly muffling large bubbles on the cornicioni with the hypothenar muscles of their palms while opening dough balls with the so-called "Neapolitan slap". In my experience, how to deal with the bubbles is circumstantial. Good day!

Omid

Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2164 on: August 24, 2013, 03:58:23 AM »
Dear Pulcinella, I hope these are what you were looking for. Click on the images to magnify them. Good day!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 04:00:31 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2165 on: August 24, 2013, 04:50:05 AM »
And the new one


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2166 on: August 24, 2013, 05:36:00 AM »
And the new one

Dear Sub, I thank you very much for kindly posting the technical data for "00" Pizza Metro flour. Do you have, by any chance, the data sheet for Caputo "00" Super flour? If you do, will you post it here, please? Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 05:38:13 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2167 on: August 24, 2013, 08:25:20 AM »
What exactly is reinforced about the Rinforzato? Why is the W number highlighted on the Rinforzato sheet?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2168 on: August 24, 2013, 03:56:30 PM »
Dear Sub, I thank you very much for kindly posting the technical data for "00" Pizza Metro flour. Do you have, by any chance, the data sheet for Caputo "00" Super flour? If you do, will you post it here, please? Good day!

Omid

You're welcome,

Unfortunately not, if I find it I'll come post it, you can found technical data for the other flours on caputoflour.com

I only know it's a 220-240W flour optimal for 6-10 hours at ambient temperature and for 24 hours in winter (from Ciro Salvo post on pizza.it)

An Italian thread with pictures
Caputo 00 Super sacco giallo ...coming soon

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2169 on: August 26, 2013, 07:09:20 AM »
What exactly is reinforced about the Rinforzato? Why is the W number highlighted on the Rinforzato sheet?

Dear Craig, I am not sure what is the answer to your question. I do not even know what the term "reinforced" is supposed to denote. Gluten quality, quantity, both, or else? Nonetheless, allow me to make an appreciation, however narrow or inconclusive, of the flour. Having experimented with Caputo "00" Rinforzato for some time, and disregarding, for now, the Rinforzato's chemico-rheological data published by Caputo, I can tell you that Rinforzato is indubitably a much stronger flour than Caputo "00" Pizzeria. The flour is capable of forming very robust gluten network. Because of the tenacious nature of its gluten, it can more readily handle higher hydration percentages than Pizzeria flour. And, in my assessment, one would be, perhaps, well-advised to use higher hydration levels, than one would use with Pizzeria flour, in making Rinforzato dough in order to achieve an appropriate degree of dough fluidity, consistency, and maturation that is conducive to production of light pizza base and cornicione.

All things being equal, per my experiments, Rinforzato dough needs a longer time interval than Pizzeria dough to reach dough maturation. And, once it reaches an optimal state of maturation, thereafter it seem to manifest a longer shelf-life than Pizzeria dough. Per my observations, Rinforzato dough can handle warm room temperatures quite well without resorts to using a marble chamber or ice chest.

In terms of flavor and texture, so far I have not noticed considerable differences between Rinforzato and Pizzeria—as long as each is given due time to be properly hydrolyzed, fermented, and matured. For me, a fruitful application of Rinforzato would entail mixing about 10‑25% (depending on the intensity of room temperature and other interrelated factors) of it with Caputo Pizzeria flour solely for the purpose of procuring a stronger dough with a longer shelf-life that can withstand warm ambient temperatures longer than Pizzeria dough can. Rinforzato-Pizzeria dough might prove to be ideal for some pizza truck operators during very warm and humid seasons when they have no control over dough temperature. Also, a proper Rinforzato-Pizzeria mixture may prove to be worthwhile for those who shoot for exceedingly long fermentation, either using room temperature or an ice chest, so that later there would be no need to struggle with the dough on the bancone and/or oven floor. If properly formulated and developed, Rinforzato-Pizzeria dough can, in my opinion, facilitate dough handleability both on the bancone and oven floor. Please, see the following related post which I posted here on Nov. 5, 2012:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg221764/topicseen.html#msg221764

Now, let us take a look at Caputo's chemico-rheological data for the Rinforzato flour, of which two versions exist, one dated January 2008 and the other April 2013. Also, let us take a look at Caputo's chemico-rheological data for the Pizzeria flour, of which also two versions exist, one dated October 2006 and the other April 2013. See the images below. (Click on the images to magnify.)

As you can see, there are some discrepancies between the two versions for each flour. With regard to the "W" factor for Rinforzato, the data sheet of Jan. 2008 discloses "280-320" while the data sheet of April 2013 discloses "300-330". Which is correct or more accurate? (Or, maybe, I am asking the wrong question!) After all the experiences that I have had with the flour so far, I am more inclined to accept the data sheet of April 2013 as more representative of the way the flour has behaved in the dough systems that I have experimented with within the last 18 months. Perchance, Tom had a good point when he remarked:

Get a bunch of sample bags and try them.  Until you use them up, those data sheets are meaningless.  You can't design a good pizza on paper or in CAD, you have to have flour in the hair on your head and no hair left up to your elbows.

I invite you to check out this short thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14175.0

Maybe, member Foodimp (that is, Mr. Fred Mortati of Orlando Foods, a U.S. importer of Caputo flours) has an explanation for the discrepancies. Could it be the case that Caputo reengineered both flours in April 2013 or earlier? Coincidentally or not, I believe that it was around April of this year or a bit earlier when Caputo slightly redesigned the prints and artworks on the 25-kilo bags for Rinforzato and Pizzeria. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:36:34 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2170 on: August 26, 2013, 10:33:02 AM »
with limited experience I can confirm that Rinforzato is a benefit to mobile pizza operation on a hot afternoon.  With very helpful advice from Omid, I made 3 different dough batches to take to our wheels on wheels pizza event last night.  one was 100% caputo pizzeria, which I used first, the second had 10% rinforzato, and the last was with 25% rinforzato.  over a 2 hour period baking pizzas like crazy, I noticed all 3 doughs developing through their window of use.  the 25% dough was last and even at the end in much better shape to handle on the table and the oven floor than either of the others.  I would recommend trying this for similar use.  i'll be experimenting further to make a better informed opinion. 
thanks Omid for the advice!
bill

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2171 on: August 26, 2013, 12:02:24 PM »
Omid,

As noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1817.msg16092/topicseen.html#msg16092, as far back as 2005, Naples 45 in New York City, which at the time was in the capable hands of Charlie Restivo, used a blend of the two Caputo flours, although back then we tended to refer to the Rinforzato simply as Rosso. I believe that Charlie is now in Orlando and, since Naples 45 is part of a mini-chain, it is possible that he is still using the blend somewhere. No doubt Charlie told me the percentages of the two flours but I did not note that information anywhere in my files.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2172 on: August 26, 2013, 10:32:23 PM »
The revised Rinforzato numbers make a lot more sense.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2173 on: August 28, 2013, 01:24:58 PM »
Hi Omid,

Let me share with you another great article: La classifica delle migliori 10 di Ciro Salvo al Massè di Torre Annunziata

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2174 on: August 29, 2013, 07:29:23 AM »
Hi Omid,

Let me share with you another great article: La classifica delle migliori 10 di Ciro Salvo al Massè di Torre Annunziata

Dear Sub, I sincerely thank you for the link and all your contributions to the entire forum. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2175 on: September 02, 2013, 07:01:58 PM »
Below are some videos of pizzaioli napolitani that you might find interesting. I find it interesting to see the diversity of their workflows from initiation to completion (using different flours, techniques, dough manipulation, etc.). Good day! 

Salvatore Salvo


Gino Sorbillo


Di Matteo


Franco Pepe


Enzo Coccia


Pasqualino Rossi


Armando Messina Cacialli & Felice Messina


La Stesura


Intro
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline foodimp

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2176 on: September 04, 2013, 05:02:40 AM »
Omid, all,

Just a quick note to clarify a few of the questions raised below with regard to the Caputo Spec sheets and bag designs.  After having worked with Caputo for the past 15+ years I can attest to their continuous efforts to search for the best varieties of wheat available on the worldwide market in order to deliver the characteristics which are sought in the finished product (pizza dough, pasta dough, pastry dough, etc).  Because this means sourcing product from many different countries(something few others can do well) they are not static in their production specifications but instead modify these specs over time in function of the wheat characteristics with which they are dealing at that time.  The most recent Caputo Spec sheets from 2013 are accurate and updated.  One thing bears mentioning and that is that numbers in no way tell the entire story.  Caputo measures wheat on 4 important criteria and if all 4 of these important characteristics are not inherent in the wheat, they will not use it.  Therefore it is not so simple to look at W or Protein or other such factors alone.  Many can produce wheat with similar numbers, but I have yet to find one that produces the same quality.  many are good painters and can make a great picture, but the proof is in the dough in this case. With regard to bags and style, there are current updates to the logo and look to keep it fresh and current from time to time, as with all brands.
Keep up all the passion and good will towards Pizza Napoletana and best to all of you, who are the ones spreading the education in the industry whether you know it or not.
Fred Mortati
Orlando Food Sales, NJ

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2177 on: September 04, 2013, 05:53:52 AM »
. . . Because this means sourcing product from many different countries (something few others can do well) they are not static in their production specifications but instead modify these specs over time in function of the wheat characteristics with which they are dealing at that time.  The most recent Caputo Spec sheets from 2013 are accurate and updated. . . .

Fred Mortati
Orlando Food Sales, NJ

Mr. Mortati, I sincerely thank you for your consideration in addressing the issue of the discrepancies as referenced above in Reply #2169 above. Your explanation makes complete sense. I can imagine that it is a challenge for Caputo to keep pace with the quality of the grains they receive from around the world, where many factors (such as the seasonal and atmospheric conditions on which farmers do not have much control) impact the quality of the wheat. Again, I thank you for your time and care. Have a great day!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline PeterM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2178 on: September 04, 2013, 12:53:26 PM »
Thanks Omid, I have since removed the breaker bar. If your concern is with respect to cleaning, it's a breeze to clean & disinfect.

Matt

Matthew - I'm interested in installing a breaker bar on my SP5, but I see you decided to remove yours.  Would you mind providing your thoughts as to whether I'd be wasting my time and why you made the decision to remove it.  Also, if you have any specifications for the bar in terms of size, shape, how you mounted it, and whether it is adjustable, I'd appreciate the info.
Thanks,
PM

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2179 on: September 05, 2013, 01:37:34 PM »
Today I started a new thread on the Dough Ingredients board, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27399.msg277377.html#msg277377, to inform our members that Caputo now has a U.S. website at http://caputoflour.com/, with specs for all of their products but for the Crescito.

Peter


 

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