Author Topic: Caputo Problem  (Read 1210 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline austintjones

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 11
Caputo Problem
« on: June 28, 2011, 10:24:16 PM »
I have been reading the forum for some time now but I am yet to actually post, however I have a problem that I can't seem to solve. Here it is.

I have been working with a pretty standard formula for baking in my home oven and family's WFO.

WFO:
100% Caputo 00 (smaller red bag)
60% Water (65deg or so)
.08% CY
2.5% Salt

Home Oven:
100% KABF
59% Water (65deg or so)
2% Oil
.08% CY
2.5% Salt

I also practice a standardized routine of bringing all ingredients expect salt together in my KA mixer, 20 minutes autolyse, followed by a 7 minute kneading period while adding the salt, finished by some hand kneading to smooth it out a little, about 3 additional minutes. I generally let it ferment at room temp (70) for 24-40 hours, and hold it in the fridge if I have to ferment any longer, then I proof in balls an additional 4 hours. I open the pizzas with a slap and stretch technique.

PROBLEM:

The caputo dough is NEVER as strong as the KABF. I can barely open it up without getting holes in it. The KABF is ridiculously strong and never tears. This has been a commonplace problem for me, so I have tried several things out to see what the issue is. First, I thought that the caputo flour might be damp from poor storage (which I'm still pretty sure it is) so I bumped the hydration down to 58%... Still weak dough. I wondered if I wasn't kneading enough and the gluten was underdeveloped, so I hand kneaded another couple minutes... Still weak dough. I know that caputo is known for its strength, so I'm a little baffled on this subject. The flour is definitely not expired. I'm stuck, someone help me out!!
















Offline Jet_deck

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Location: Between Houston and Mexico
Re: Caputo Problem
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 11:04:47 AM »

The caputo dough is NEVER as strong as the KABF.



First, I don't believe that the Caputo flour necessarily is as strong as KABF.
Second, what ever gluten you have developed before you add the salt is likely lost when you add the salt that late in the mixing.  Not because it is salt, but because the granular form it is in shreads the dough into a million pieces.  Kinda like sand in your eye.

Would you consider adding the salt with the water in the beginning and trying again?

Just my .02 :chef:
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline austintjones

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 11
Re: Caputo Problem
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 09:44:57 PM »
Thats a great thought, I hadn't considered that to cause a problem. Also I am wondering how much stronger Capito pizzeria is than Caputo chefs flour, which I am currently using. Anyone who's compared the two want to weigh in??

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Caputo Problem
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 06:49:28 AM »
Thats a great thought, I hadn't considered that to cause a problem. Also I am wondering how much stronger Capito pizzeria is than Caputo chefs flour, which I am currently using. Anyone who's compared the two want to weigh in??



Austin - The flour you have is actually the Pizzeria in a different bag:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14175.msg142337.html#msg142337

As for your tearing issue, as a test I would double the yeast and cut the ferment time in half. See if you get the tearing. If so, you have a bad bag of flour.

John

Offline austintjones

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 11
Re: Caputo Problem
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 01:09:08 PM »
Austin - The flour you have is actually the Pizzeria in a different bag:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14175.msg142337.html#msg142337

As for your tearing issue, as a test I would double the yeast and cut the ferment time in half. See if you get the tearing. If so, you have a bad bag of flour.

John


Thanks John, I appreciate your help! I ran a couple different tests and here is what I found.

My best results came from when I kneaded for an additional 5 minutes (around 15 minutes total), resulting in great gluten development and a pizza that opened up well. The only downside is that it didn't have the perfect texture to it, a little too bread-like (though this could have been a result of neglecting to put oil in it and cooking in my home oven vs. the WFO). Why do I hear so many conflicting POV's on kneading? Some people need their pizza dough to death and some barely knead at all, seems a little baffling to me. I understand the science of gluten development fairly well, but I still find the discrepancy in kneading times to be interesting.

Here is what I think I'm doing wrong, which I will test as soon as I get a chance. I think I am forming the panetti too tightly and that the gluten is weakening in that step. Has anyone out their experimented with tight and loose panetti? Again, I have matter-o-factly heard they should have a tight skin to give the ball a structure to rise against, but I'm starting to see more and more evidence that a delicately formed panetti will still rise fine AND open up better. Just a guess at this point, will update!

Austin


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Caputo Problem
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 01:50:54 PM »
Why do I hear so many conflicting POV's on kneading? Some people need their pizza dough to death and some barely knead at all, seems a little baffling to me. I understand the science of gluten development fairly well, but I still find the discrepancy in kneading times to be interesting.

Austin

Austin, it's good that you mentioned that you understand gluten development because that is what it ultimately is about.  Gluten development/strength (along with the baking process) dictates crumb texture, not kneading times.

Kneading times are dependent on many variables including protein content, hydration levels, salt levels, use of autolyse or not and how long, oil, sugar, how the dough is mixed, the use of stretch and folds or not, cold fermentation or not and others.  All these variables have both an independent effect and a collaborative effect on gluten development.   It really doesn't matter how long you do or don't knead as long as you can arrive at your desired crumb texture post bake.  

So knead times alone are useless unless they are considered in context of the overall formulation, method, and bake.

And then to complicate matters more, you have the subjectiveness of ideal look and texture.  What is the right amount of "chew" to one person is too chewy to another.  The listed knead times, in light of the specific recipe and method, will not make a pie that will suit everyone's ideal.

Aside from all that, I have tested under kneading, moderate kneading, and over kneading and have found that again the differences texturally are truely dependent on the rest of the formula and method.  There is a lot of leeway here.  A lot of variables that will make up for under or overkneading.  But generally speaking, kneading develops gluten.  Generally speaking, the more kneading you do, the more gluten is developed which translates into a chewier/drier crumb.

Chau
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 03:51:22 PM by Jackie Tran »


 

pizzapan