Author Topic: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough (Read 3862 times)

wheelman · « **on:** July 04, 2011, 11:29:42 PM »

I've been following Pizza Napolatano's threads with interest as i know others here have. i think i've made some real progress as a result. i tried some things i've never thought about before. tonight i tried two doughs again: both with Ischia starter, both at 60% hydration, one with 12 hr. preferment and 12 hr. autolyze, the other wtih 18 hr bulk at 63 deg. the preferment was better in every way including texture.
i took a few pics:
bill

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2011, 11:59:21 PM »

Bill are the first 2 the 18h bulk, and the 2nd 2 the 12h autolyze?

What was the total fermentation time for each? One batch was decidely better?

wheelman · « **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:26:07 AM »

Chau,
yes, you got it right. total fermentation was 24 hours on both. the bulk dough was stronger and easier to work with but it didn't have a very good oven spring. i expected it to be softer but it really wasn't. the preferment dough was both tastier and had great rise, but it was much weaker to open - almost takes no stretching at all. i wouldn't say the taste was hugely different but we agreed the preferment was better.
bill

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:28:51 AM »

Very Nice job Bill!

Matt

wheelman · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:37:22 AM »

thanks Matt! I'm trying to settle on a method for a party i'm having at the end of this month with some folks who i hope to please. they're a pretty serious bunch who know their pizza...

bill

Pete-zza · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:41:10 AM »

Bill,

Can you describe the psrticular type of preferment you used ( e.g., poolish, biga, etc.) and its composition?

Peter

wheelman · « **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:55:05 AM »

Peter,

the preferment - based on TXCraig's UPN dough,
11g starter
98 g water
106 g caputo pizz. OO

the dough -
207g water
394 g OO mixed and left 12 hours with the preferment

+ 12g salt and preferment

mixed in KA, looked very wet and strange. i added about a tablespoon of OO and it came together nicely. sit for 40 min, knead for 30 sec, sit for 20 min, knead a couple of times and bulk at 63 degrees for 6 hours. balled and rested at 74 for 6 hours

dellavecchia · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2011, 10:47:45 AM »

Bill - Excellent use of two concepts that came together with great results. Can't wait to try the extended autolyse this weekend.

John

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2011, 10:53:26 AM »

So Bill if I haven't misunderstood, you mixed the preferement in one bowl. In a separate bowl you mixed flour and water. Let both sit for 12h then mixed them together. Is this correct?

Did you also add oil to the other batch? Do you typically use oil in your formulation? I have nothing against oil, just curious is all.

Any theories on what occured here?
Chau

thezaman · « **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2011, 11:06:27 AM »

Bill, did you by any chance try either after the pizza cooled? if so did either or both maintain a tender chew . those pizzas look really beautiful. the first with the grape tomatoes is extremely appetizing !! you may want to use that on your Christmas cards this year.

RobynB · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2011, 11:30:48 AM »

Chau, Where are you seeing oil? I don't see him adding oil to either?

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #11 on:** July 05, 2011, 11:39:59 AM »

Quote from: RobynB on July 05, 2011, 11:30:48 AM

Chau, Where are you seeing oil? I don't see him adding oil to either?

Whoops, I read that incorrectly. I mistook the tablespoon of OO for olive oil instead of 00 flour. Thanks.

Was reading too fast from my cell phone.

wheelman · « **Reply #12 on:** July 05, 2011, 11:50:14 AM »

chau, you're right on my mixing - i mixed both together with the salt after 12 hours.
i think the preferment dough was better than it has been in the past without the autolyze step. i would like for the dough to be a little stronger on the bench but other than that i'm pretty happy with it. my cooking technique definitely has room for improvement, i think i over cooked all those last night.

Zaman, thanks for the props! we did try both after they cooled and noticed that they were a little tougher but not much. the preferment was probably less so with the less dense crown.
bill

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 05, 2011, 01:01:51 PM »

Great looking pies, Bill.

CL

wheelman · « **Reply #14 on:** July 05, 2011, 02:36:18 PM »

thanks Craig. any advice for making the dough a little stronger on the bench? I thought i would try a lower hydration next, maybe 58 or 59%. I also thought about cooling my marble table down with ice before going to work but last night it was only 77 deg. measured with the gun, so i doubt that would help much. Matt's comment about dough turning to glue on a sunbaked table got me thinking about that.
bill

DannyG · « **Reply #15 on:** July 05, 2011, 03:01:51 PM »

Quote from: wheelman on July 05, 2011, 09:55:05 AM

Peter,

the preferment - based on TXCraig's UPN dough,
11g starter
98 g water
106 g caputo pizz. OO

the dough -
207g water
394 g OO mixed and left 12 hours with the preferment

+ 12g salt and preferment

mixed in KA, looked very wet and strange. i added about a tablespoon of OO and it came together nicely. sit for 40 min, knead for 30 sec, sit for 20 min, knead a couple of times and bulk at 63 degrees for 6 hours. balled and rested at 74 for 6 hours

Bill, do you think IDY could be substituted for the starter in this formula? I was thinking something in the order of 2%.
Do you think

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 05, 2011, 03:16:41 PM »

Quote from: wheelman on July 05, 2011, 02:36:18 PM

thanks Craig. any advice for making the dough a little stronger on the bench? I thought i would try a lower hydration next, maybe 58 or 59%. I also thought about cooling my marble table down with ice before going to work but last night it was only 77 deg. measured with the gun, so i doubt that would help much. Matt's comment about dough turning to glue on a sunbaked table got me thinking about that.
bill

In addition to lowering the hydration, maybe up the salt to 3%?

CL

dellavecchia · « **Reply #17 on:** July 05, 2011, 04:11:00 PM »

Quote from: wheelman on July 05, 2011, 02:36:18 PM

any advice for making the dough a little stronger on the bench?

Bill - If you are referring the dough made with the extended autolyse, one of the effects of this process is dough extensibility. The enzyme activity is jump started (specifically protease) to break down some of the gluten bonds, which causes the dough to be much more extensible. You confirmed that this works as expected by observing the dough nearly fell open when you went to stretch.

John

wheelman · « **Reply #18 on:** July 05, 2011, 04:39:58 PM »

DannyG - I haven't tried to make a preferment with IDY. it's worth a shot though, i imagine it will work at some percentage. let us know if you try.

Craig, I'll up the salt when i try a lower hydration next time to see how much difference it makes. thanks for the help!

John, I've been fighting this problem all summer, even before trying this mixing method. it wasn't worse than before this time but i was at a lower hydration so maybe that balanced it out some. thanks for the explanation

wheelman · « **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2011, 10:42:13 PM »

i left one of each dough in the fridge since monday and cooked calzones tonight in my gas oven at about 600 deg. they were both a little tough as they always seem to be when cooked at lower temps but they were as good as any calzones we've made inside. the preferment was again the favorite. easy to tell which one that is by the better rise..
bill