Author Topic: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough  (Read 7711 times)

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Offline wheelman

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I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« on: July 04, 2011, 11:29:42 PM »
I've been following Pizza Napolatano's threads with interest as i know others here have.  i think i've made some real progress as a result.  i tried some things i've never thought about before.  tonight i tried two doughs again: both with Ischia starter, both at 60% hydration, one with 12 hr. preferment and 12 hr. autolyze, the other wtih 18 hr bulk at 63 deg.  the preferment was better in every way including texture.
i took a few pics:
bill


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2011, 11:59:21 PM »
Bill are the first 2 the 18h bulk, and the 2nd 2 the 12h autolyze?

What was the total fermentation time for each? One batch was decidely better?

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 09:26:07 AM »
Chau,
yes, you got it right.  total fermentation was 24 hours on both.  the bulk dough was stronger and easier to work with but it didn't have a very good oven spring.  i expected it to be softer but it really wasn't.  the preferment dough was both tastier and had great rise, but it was much weaker to open - almost takes no stretching at all.  i wouldn't say the taste was hugely different but we agreed the preferment was better.
bill 

Offline Matthew

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 09:28:51 AM »
Very Nice job Bill!

Matt

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 09:37:22 AM »
thanks Matt!  I'm trying to settle on a method for a party i'm having at the end of this month with some folks who i hope to please.  they're a pretty serious bunch who know their pizza... :'(
bill

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 09:41:10 AM »
Bill,

Can you describe the psrticular type of preferment you used ( e.g., poolish, biga, etc.) and its composition?

Peter

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 09:55:05 AM »
Peter,

the preferment - based on TXCraig's UPN dough,
11g starter
98 g water
106 g caputo pizz. OO

the dough -
207g water
394 g OO mixed and left 12 hours with the preferment

+ 12g salt and preferment

mixed in KA, looked very wet and strange.  i added about a tablespoon of OO and it came together nicely.  sit for 40 min, knead for 30 sec, sit for 20 min, knead a couple of times and bulk at 63 degrees for 6 hours.  balled and rested at 74 for 6 hours

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 10:47:45 AM »
Bill - Excellent use of two concepts that came together with great results. Can't wait to try the extended autolyse this weekend.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 10:53:26 AM »
So Bill if I haven't misunderstood, you mixed the preferement in one bowl.  In a separate bowl you mixed flour and water. Let both sit for 12h then mixed them together.  Is this correct?

Did you also add oil to the other batch?  Do you typically use oil in your formulation?  I have nothing against oil, just curious is all.

Any theories on what occured here?
Chau
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 11:00:34 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline thezaman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 11:06:27 AM »
Bill, did you by any chance try either after the pizza cooled? if so did either or both maintain a tender chew . those pizzas look really beautiful. the first with the grape tomatoes is extremely appetizing !! you may want to use that on your Christmas cards this year. ;D

Offline RobynB

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 11:30:48 AM »
Chau,  Where are you seeing oil?  I don't see him adding oil to either?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 11:39:59 AM »
Chau,  Where are you seeing oil?  I don't see him adding oil to either?

Whoops, I read that incorrectly.  I mistook the tablespoon of OO for olive oil instead of 00 flour.  Thanks.

Was reading too fast from my cell phone.

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 11:50:14 AM »
chau, you're right on my mixing - i mixed both together with the salt after 12 hours.
i think the preferment dough was better than it has been in the past without the autolyze step.  i would like for the dough to be a little stronger on the bench but other than that i'm pretty happy with it.  my cooking technique definitely has room for improvement, i think i over cooked all those last night. 

Zaman, thanks for the props!  we did try both after they cooled and noticed that they were a little tougher but not much.  the preferment was probably less so with the less dense crown. 
bill

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 01:01:51 PM »
Great looking pies, Bill.

CL
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 02:36:18 PM »
thanks Craig.  any advice for making the dough a little stronger on the bench?  I thought i would try a lower hydration next, maybe 58 or 59%.  I also thought about cooling my marble table down with ice before going to work but last night it was only 77 deg. measured with the gun, so i doubt that would help much.  Matt's comment about dough turning to glue on a sunbaked table got me thinking about that.
bill 

Offline DannyG

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 03:01:51 PM »
Peter,

the preferment - based on TXCraig's UPN dough,
11g starter
98 g water
106 g caputo pizz. OO

the dough -
207g water
394 g OO mixed and left 12 hours with the preferment

+ 12g salt and preferment

mixed in KA, looked very wet and strange.  i added about a tablespoon of OO and it came together nicely.  sit for 40 min, knead for 30 sec, sit for 20 min, knead a couple of times and bulk at 63 degrees for 6 hours.  balled and rested at 74 for 6 hours



Bill, do you think IDY could be substituted for the starter in this formula? I was thinking something in the order of 2%.
Do you think

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 03:16:41 PM »
thanks Craig.  any advice for making the dough a little stronger on the bench?  I thought i would try a lower hydration next, maybe 58 or 59%.  I also thought about cooling my marble table down with ice before going to work but last night it was only 77 deg. measured with the gun, so i doubt that would help much.  Matt's comment about dough turning to glue on a sunbaked table got me thinking about that.
bill 

In addition to lowering the hydration, maybe up the salt to 3%?

CL
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 04:11:00 PM »
any advice for making the dough a little stronger on the bench? 

Bill - If you are referring the dough made with the extended autolyse, one of the effects of this process is dough extensibility. The enzyme activity is jump started (specifically protease) to break down some of the gluten bonds, which causes the dough to be much more extensible. You confirmed that this works as expected by observing the dough nearly fell open when you went to stretch.

John

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2011, 04:39:58 PM »
DannyG - I haven't tried to make a preferment with IDY.  it's worth a shot though, i imagine it will work at some percentage.  let us know if you try.

Craig, I'll up the salt when i try a lower hydration next time to see how much difference it makes.  thanks for the help!

John, I've been fighting this problem all summer, even before trying this mixing method.  it wasn't worse than before this time but i was at a lower hydration so maybe that balanced it out some.  thanks for the explanation


Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2011, 10:42:13 PM »
i left one of each dough in the fridge since monday and cooked calzones tonight in my gas oven at about 600 deg.  they were both a little tough as they always seem to be when cooked at lower temps but they were as good as any calzones we've made inside.  the preferment was again the favorite.  easy to tell which one that is by the better rise..
bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2011, 11:52:42 AM »
After an exchange of a few posts with member Pizza Napoletana in the thread linked to above by wheelman, I also wanted to do an experiment comparing the effects of a long classic autolyse (CA) (effective hydration) versus an extended fermentation (EF).

For the effective hydration (EH) part of the experiment, I am using an extended classic autolyse (CA)method of mixing the flour and water and allowing that mixture to rest for 5 hours in order to attempt to effectively hydrate the flour and then mixed in the salt and yeast.

For the (EF) part of the experiment, the flour, water, salt, and yeast were all very briefly mixed together at the outset and then allowed to sit for 5 hours.

At the end of the 5 hours, both doughs were given the same treatment and assessment of the dough was made at varying invtervals throughout the process.

Flour 100% Caputo Pizzeria 00
Water 63% tap water
IDY 0.04% for (EH) dough and 0.025% for the (EF) dough.
Salt 2.5%

I started out by mixing the EH (effective hydration) dough, flour and water, briefly for about 1 minute just to get a fairly even mixture.  I covered the bowl and allowed it to hydrate over the next 5 hours.
For the EF (extended or long fermentation) dough, I dissolved the salt and IDY into the water then hand mixed in the flour for about 1 minute to just to get an even mixture as before.  Covered the bowl and allowed it to rest over the next 5 hours.  

At the end of the 5 hours, I poked both doughs with my fingers and the EH dough felt softer.  The EF dough felt just a bit stronger.  

I then mixed in the salt and IDY into the EH dough and kneaded for it for a few minutes.   I noted that the dough strength seemed particularly strong and I didn't see the dough visibly break under the pressure of kneading.   I also kneaded the EF dough for a few minutes as well.  Both doughs were rested for about 10m, and then give 3 cycles of folds every 10 min or so.  Though both doughs felt similar in the hand I did noted that the EF dough was breaking under the pressure of kneading or folding.  

At around 1130pm, I check the window paning of both doughs and both doughs look and felt identical at this point.  

I let both doughs rest covered over night and checked them in the morning for work.   I decided to divided and ball both batches at this point.   Again I noted how similar look both doughs were.  They looked identical, but when I went to ball the dough I noted the slight differences in how each balled up especially around the seams.  The EF dough again, was breaking under pressure.   I am contributing this effect to a lower quality of gluten development in the EF dough, as I did not notice this in the EH dough.

Both doughs were balled up and rested till about 4pm (~11hours).   They had really flattened out like pancakes, so I reballed them briefly before baking at ~530pm.  At this point both doughs seem to handle and ball up very similarly.  

I went to bake up both doughs  and noted a much bigger oven spring with the EH dough.  Both doughballs are 245gm.

EH dough baked 1st at around a temp of 875 ish and baked for 55 seconds.

The EF dough baked around 850 for 1m15s.  So just a bit longer.  

Both pies ate very similarly in texture and the crust tasted the same.  The only difference was the visible spring which I am contributing to better gluten development due to improved gluten development secondary to improve hydration of the dough.

EH pie - fresh mozz, sweet chinese sausage, garlic, cilantro
Pics 1&2 are of the same pie, just different angles.  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 01:24:13 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 11:54:44 AM »
Pie 2 EF (long fermentation) pie.  Bufala mozz, Coppa, garlic, basil.

Offline ponzu

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2011, 12:08:38 PM »
JT,

Interesting experiment.

The oven spring looks identical when comparing the EH pie to the well charred side of the EF pie.  Is this an illusion?  if not couldn't you argue that the spring is simply a product of a hotter floor temp?

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2011, 12:20:08 PM »
JT,

Interesting experiment.

The oven spring looks identical when comparing the EH pie to the well charred side of the EF pie.  Is this an illusion?  if not couldn't you argue that the spring is simply a product of a hotter floor temp?

AZ

The spring only looks identical in one small portion of the rim.  The majority of the rim on EH pie blew up!  So much so that I was a bit shocked by the rise given that the dough weight was the same and similar opening techniques were used for both pies.   I would like to believe that I'm fairly consistent (good or bad) with my opening techniques by now.   

IMO, you can't argue temp differences.  If you have sufficient or effective gluten development (relative to hydration and protein content of the flour, salt, type of yeast, etc, etc) then you will get a bigger spring even at lower temps.  So the difference in 25-50F in temps is negligeable IMO.

I have seen this multiple times in my different LBE experiments and I also saw this in a loaf of bread that I loaded at a about 100F lower than normal.  The ovenspring was just as big as usual. 
 
Having said that though, both pies ate very similary and had very similary texture, chew, and flavor.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2011, 12:27:44 PM »
Alexi, I also forgot to say that the differences in spring could arguably be from the fact that I topped the pies different.   The different ingredients, having different weights could have allowed more of the rim of the EH pie to blow up. 

But I will also say that though both doughs looked nearly identical throughout most of the later stages of fermentation, it was the difference in how they tolerated balling that was really noticeable.  Both handled very similarly during balling, until right at the end when I was sealing up the edges.  I noted that the EF dough was splitting, cracking, breaking etc at the seams and this never happened with the EH dough.  This was seen twice when the doughs were balled/folded at different intervals during the process. 

Chau