Author Topic: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough  (Read 7934 times)

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Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2011, 03:22:28 PM »
Chau, how do you think it would go if you compared the two starting from the same time when the yeast-salt were mixed with either the hydrated flour or dry flour?
Bill


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2011, 04:08:25 PM »
Chau, how do you think it would go if you compared the two starting from the same time when the yeast-salt were mixed with either the hydrated flour or dry flour?
Bill

I think it would depend on the overall fermentation time, but initially there would be a bigger difference in the way the dough feels and handles that would seem to deminish over time towards the end of fermentation, especially if I were to employ the same techniques of stretch and folds.  

If I'm not mistaken, I developed the gluten slowly as I proceeded through the process of fermentation with periodic stretch and folds instead of kneading to full gluten developement right away.  Through stretch and folds (gentle handling), the differences in gluten strength between the 2 methods was more obvious.   I think if I had kneaded to full gluten developement initially, the difference would have been harder to detect.   Not to say it's not there, but that it would be harder to appreciate it.  

I think the point to drive home is that if the dough is allowed to hydrate properly the quality of gluten that is formed is higher b/c the flour/dough/gluten is undamaged by the effects of salt and yeast, however small that effect actually is.  

To me the 2 doughs handled deceivingly similar.  It was only by paying attention to the smaller details of the dough that I was able to detect the differences there and when I saw the result it all made sense.  

Chau
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 05:34:31 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2011, 09:35:38 PM »
But I will also say that though both doughs looked nearly identical throughout most of the later stages of fermentation, it was the difference in how they tolerated balling that was really noticeable.  Both handled very similarly during balling, until right at the end when I was sealing up the edges.  I noted that the EF dough was splitting, cracking, breaking etc at the seams and this never happened with the EH dough.  This was seen twice when the doughs were balled/folded at different intervals during the process.  

What a great experiment Chau. And that coppa pie is one of your best. As I noted earlier in the thread, the extended autolyse without salt and yeast is supposed to make the dough more extensible. This may be why you noticed and easier time with the EH balling.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2011, 10:27:32 PM »
Thank you John.  I agree and think that both the extended autolyse and extended fermentation makes doughs much more extensible.  So much so that we can drop the hydration levels significantly compare to a same day 12hour dough.   Both these doughs were so slack and were more extensible than my 68% hydrated 12 hour room temp doughs.  Again, both doughs were extremely extensible and easy to handle and ball.  The only difference was that I felt that the lengthy classic autolyse actually helps improve the gluten development and actually made the dough stronger.  The lack of salt and yeast appears to allow the gluten to develop without interruption.  Once the gluten stands set up and salt and yeast get mixed in, their damaging effects to the gluten structure seem to be limited.  At various intervals throughout the process, the EH dough was actually a bit stronger (more elastic and less extensible, but only to an extent and not overtly).  This was also confirmed on the bake with the difference in oven spring, being that oven spring is partially dependent on gluten strength.

When I use this method again next time, I'll actually have to drop the hydration below 63%, possibly to 58% or below.   This is a revelation for me, because up until now, I was tethered to much higher hydration doughs attributing it mainly to my dry climates.  Who knew that just a change in technique could drastically affect the way dough behaves.

Chau 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2011, 10:49:32 PM »
Chau,

Since the protease enzymes are active during the autolyse to attack the gluten structure, do you think that that might have been a major contributing cause of the increased extensibility? See, for, example, the discussion on protease performance at http://books.google.com/books?id=XqKF7PqV02cC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=protease+enzymes+dough&source=bl&ots=hpsOfgO7wQ&sig=Zb3uKWL0Vjn4AFV5ppbTuMrGucM&hl=en&ei=jA8ZTtOADIuLsAKIypjCBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=protease%20enzymes%20dough&f=false. I might add that bakers sometimes add protease enzymes to a dough in order to speed up the gluten breakdown to shorten production time.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2011, 11:34:06 PM »
Chau,

Since the protease enzymes are active during the autolyse to attack the gluten structure, do you think that that might have been a major contributing cause of the increased extensibility? See, for, example, the discussion on protease performance at http://books.google.com/books?id=XqKF7PqV02cC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=protease+enzymes+dough&source=bl&ots=hpsOfgO7wQ&sig=Zb3uKWL0Vjn4AFV5ppbTuMrGucM&hl=en&ei=jA8ZTtOADIuLsAKIypjCBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=protease%20enzymes%20dough&f=false. I might add that bakers sometimes add protease enzymes to a dough in order to speed up the gluten breakdown to shorten production time.

Peter

With such limited knowledge of chemistry, bread, and pizza I don't often study related material outside the forum.  Much of what I know, which is not much at all, has been gleaned from this forum in one way or another and from a few bread books that I own.   Peter, I do agree that autolyse allows enzyme activity to increase creating a more extensible dough.  I was able to see in my experiment that it is more specifically time, whether it be autolysing or a long fermentation that allows for increased enzyme activity.  I have actually seen this many times before but hadn't put it all together in the past.  To compensate for the increase extesnsibility at that time, I just did more stretch and folds to rebuild the strength.   Now, theorectically I can just cut back on the hydration and avoid the excess stretch and folds and should get a simiar dough.   It is surprising how much we are able to drop the hydration as time of fermentation is increase, and I do think that enzyme activity is the major reason for this.  

So one question to consider...is there a limit to this enzyme activity or a ceiling effect?  At some point, does the ezyme activity level out and a dough does not get anymore extensible?

Does a 5 hour autolyse create a more extensible dough than a 30m autolyse dough? 

In the link that you provided, it also mentions that gluten is formed during a 30min autolyse.  So this begs the question then does a longer autolyse build more gluten and is there also a ceiling effect?  I believe the answer is yes and yes, or at least this is what I have seen from this experiment.  

A third question to consider, can a dough be both extensibile and strong at the same time?  I believe so.  This would be an easy experiment to conduct should anyone have some time and inclination.   Make 2 batches using a straight mix and allow the dough to ferment for 24 hours or so.   At the 20th hour, lightly ball one of the doughs and not the other.   Upon opening and baking, both doughs will be very extensible, maybe one more so than the other but that one should also exhibit more strength and thus a higher oven spring.

I don't have examples of extensible yet strong dough on hand, but I have seen this type of dough many times before when watching videos of high hydration neopolitan and pizza romana doughs.  The dough looks very extensible, soft and pliable, but yet is able to be stretched (windowpaned) without breaking.

No doubt autolysing allows enzyme activity to make a dough more extensible, but in my mind, time will do the same whether a dough has been autolyse or just subjected to a long fermentation.  I think my experiment demonstrates this AND also shows that a longer classic autolyse actually helps build gluten while making a dough more extensible.  

Chau
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 08:30:49 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2011, 11:47:05 PM »
perhaps I should have posted these pictures earlier to help illustrate what I am talking about.

Pic 1 shows the EH dough with a 5h classic autolyse and after yeast and salt was mixed/kneaded in for 1.5m and then the dough was balled up.  You can almost see the gluten strength in the dough.

Pic 2 shows the EF dough after a 5 hour rest and the same 1.5m of kneading and balling.  This dough had salt and yeast in it from the beginning.  If you look closely at the surface of the ball you can see where it is weak and breaking.  

Pic 3 this is the bottom (seam side) of the EF dough after it was divided and balled in following morning, about 13 hours after it was initialy mixed.  You can see the weakness in the dough here as well.  I don't have a picture of the bottom of the EH doughball, but it didn't exhibit this weakness at this point where I pinch the ball to seal it.  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 08:32:32 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2011, 11:55:43 PM »
Here is a picture of what balls from both batches looked like after they were divided and balled the following morning.   Both doughs looked, handled, and behave very very similiarly.  The only difference that I noted was in the gluten strength.   In this picture, the balls on the right side are of the EH dough and was balled first.   The balls to the left are of the EF (labelled LF for Long Fermentation), and divided and balled about 5 minutes later.  The picture was taken immediately after the EF balls were placed in the container so the other ones look slightly flatter.

Pic 2 shows how the same balls from both batches flattened out like pancakes after an 11 hour proof.   I got out of work late and came home to this.  Ideally I would have reballed again sooner, but I ended up reballing these around 4:20pm.

This picture was taken upside down, and the flattened disks on the left are actually of the EH dough.  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 11:58:16 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline doodneyy

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2011, 02:21:09 AM »
nice work.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 12:03:14 PM by doodneyy »


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2011, 05:49:03 AM »
Chau,

Since the protease enzymes are active during the autolyse to attack the gluten structure, do you think that that might have been a major contributing cause of the increased extensibility?
Peter

Peter - FWIW, Saus says this explicitly as the main outcome (extensibility).

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2011, 09:10:42 AM »
Chau,

I also am not an expert on any of these matters. However, I would like to offer up the following comments and observations:

1. I, too, experienced many of the principles you observed when I attempted to make long (20-24 hours), room-temperature fermented doughs. In my case, I made straight (non-autolysed) doughs. I reported on my results in the opening post in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. As noted in that post, I concluded that for such a dough to succeed in my high room temperature environment, it was necessary to reduce the hydration value that I would normally use for the dough formulation in question by about 5% from the rated absorption value for the flour I used. I did this in the belief that the protease enzymes were destroying the gluten structure and causing the water in the dough to be released from its bond. This latter effect also made it necessary for me to re-ball the dough a few hours before use to improve the dough strength. Ideally, I would have preferred not to have to do any re-balling, as I so noted in the above-referenced post.

2. The protease enzymes are temperature sensitive. They will be denatured and rendered ineffectual (non-functional) when the temperature in the dough reaches 60 degrees C, or 140 degrees F (see http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html). So, for all practical purposes, the protease enzymes (along with other enzymes) will be destroyed during baking of the dough. The protease enzymes are also pH sensitive and can be rendered non-functional at certain pH values. However, these values are unlikely to obtain for most normal doughs, and certainly those that are used with commercial yeast rather than natural leavening systems. Finally, the protease enzymes are salt sensitive. That is one of the reasons why salt is omitted from a classic autolyse--to optimize the softening effects of the protease enzymes and improve hydration of the dough (and shorten dough production times). On the other side of the issue, it might also help explain why higher than normal salt levels are used with doughs, like Neapolitan-style doughs, that are to be subjected to long room temperature fermentations. The salt, in addition to helping strengthen the dough, will keep the protease enzymes in check so that they do not materially harm the gluten structure and release the water from its bond. As I see it, so long as the protease enzymes are not functionally disabled, they will continue to work to take apart the gluten structure. Given enough time, they can literally destroy the dough. I tested this thesis successfully for both commercially leavened doughs and doughs with natural leavening agents.

3. About a couple of years ago, when my interest in autolyse rest times was piqued, I looked at the dough recipes that Professor Calvel, the father of autolyse, put in his book The Taste of Bread to see what duration of autolyse rest periods were used. I reported on my results in Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624/topicseen.html#msg74624. As noted there, the longest autolyse rest period was 30 minutes, and that was for amounts of dough of over 70 pounds. Some members, including djones48, experimented with much longer autolyse rest periods (see the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7770.msg66722.html#msg66722) although in his case he used an overnight cold autolyse and he was looking for more sugar production than improved hydration. I believe that John (dellavecchia) also conducted some experiments with autolyse rest periods far in excess of the autolyse rest periods contemplated by Professor Calvel (the Suas methods that John has cited).

To be honest, in the final analysis, what is more important in my opinion than trying to fully grasp all of the phenomena and principles at play is whether the final results are acceptable and whether they can be reproduced on a consistent basis. It is much like how a child, like my 9-year old granddaughter, can use her iPad with remarkable facility without having the faintest idea as to the technology behind the device. By analogy, it is like presenting a dough formulation with precise values (like baker's percents/weights/volumes) and a detailed set of instructions that just about anyone should be able to follow. It would be a different story if one were tasked with creating a new dough formulation for a particular application. Then, it certainly helps, and may even be necessary, to understand most of the phenomena and principles that come into play.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2011, 05:28:09 PM »
Thanks for your reply Peter.   I agree that so long as we can get the intended results, it's not absolutely necessary to know and consider every minute detail.  Of course there is a balance between following a recipe blindly (without any understanding) and having too much info to the point that it overwhelms us and makes us less effective.  I think, each of us find that we are most comfortable somewhere between the 2 extremes. 

My only point in raising all those questions was to say that there maybe so much more to what is going on with dough than can be simply stated that autolyse causes extensibility.   Even my own observations of what is happening may not even be accurate or correct.  Only time, more learning and testing will reveal the truth.

I was really quite surprise by my results because I was sure that either there would not be a difference or that it would be insignificant.  I'll have to do more experiments to see the true value of a long autolyse or how to exploit this enzyme activity, either for texural benefits in the finished crumb or to suit my particular schedule for making dough.

Chau

Offline wheelman

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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2011, 11:04:07 PM »
I think there's something to this effective hydration...  my dough was probably the best i've made tonight.  10 hour preferment with 10 hour autolise.  7 hour bulk and 3 hour balled up.  i kneaded the dough a little after bulk before balling and it seemed to cure my too soft dough problem.  i got great spring in the WFO and nice texture and flavor.  pics are: filetti, guanciale and peppadews, and margarita. thanks Omid.
bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2011, 11:39:24 PM »
Very nice leoparding Bill.  So are you noticing any textural differences from your normal pies?

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2011, 07:26:44 AM »
Bill,

Great to hear you think something happens to make the pizzas with effective hydration better.  Your pizza looks very good!  :) Very good leoparding and crumb shots.

It has been fun watching your experiments.

Norma
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: my hair looks so much better too!
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2011, 08:16:01 AM »
I think there's something to this effective hydration...  my dough was probably the best i've made tonight.  10 hour preferment with 10 hour autolise.  7 hour bulk and 3 hour balled up.  i kneaded the dough a little after bulk before balling and it seemed to cure my too soft dough problem.  i got great spring in the WFO and nice texture and flavor.  pics are: filetti, guanciale and peppadews, and margarita. thanks Omid.
bill

They look illustrious and tasteful!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2011, 09:06:21 AM »
Very nice leoparding Bill.  So are you noticing any textural differences from your normal pies?

Chau
thanks Chau.  these are softer.  my dough was stronger like i've been looking for so that really helps with stretching.  i didn't have to deal with a mess when sliding it onto the peel and adjusting the shape.  the balls held their shape really well too, maybe partially because i only left them for 3-4 hours. 
these were cooked at about 850 for 60 sec.  I tried not to burn them up.  i think i like a little longer bake, maybe 80 or 90 sec at 800 or so.  I'm going to work with this method for my next few bakes and see where it takes me. 

thanks Norma!

and thanks to you Omid, you have been a great addition to the forum. 


Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2011, 09:41:59 AM »
still working with the biga naturale/eff. hydration dough.  i'm a little confused as to why, but it was better again this time.  i didn't do any additional kneading after bulk but had to mix a little longer to bring the eff. hydrated flour and the biga together.  i hope i can make this consistantly in future bakes.  going to try again wed.   
i used a different buff. mozz. this time.  holy buffalo, it was $15!  good though. really good. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2011, 09:50:24 AM »
Bill you paid $15 for how many ounces?

Chau

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2011, 09:57:09 AM »
that one ball, just about 8 oz.!  it was double the cost of what they used to carry. WF still has garofolo for about $8.  i'll go there next time. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2011, 10:07:40 AM »
Yeah my WFs has one for $12 for 7-8 oz and I've been just too cheap to try it.  TJ's is about a dollar an ounce which is tolerable but the quality is just okay.  I've heard good things about the garofolo brand.

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2011, 09:09:59 AM »
yesterday i used the paddle instead of the hook on my KA when mixing the preferment and the hydrated flour.  Before - with the hook, this step left me with such wet dough that i would have to add a good bit of flour to bring the dough together.  with the paddle, it worked fine without extra flour.  i'm guessing that the hydrated flour, which looks like a dense dough, wasn't dispersing as well as i thought.  this dough was perfect on the bench after mixing during a couple of short kneads.  i'm thinking about a different mixer now...
here's a couple shots of the pies:

Offline DannyG

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2011, 09:34:08 AM »
I always use the paddle on the initial mix. The hook just doesn't bring everything together as quickly.

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2011, 09:23:38 AM »
i tried this effective hydration method again but this time, after reading one of Omid's comments about 12hr. being excessive, i tried only a 1 hour hydration of the flour.  same everything else.  i noticed that the dough was much stronger and not as easy to open.  less pillowy. the crust was tougher.  not sure where this leaves me on this experiment, but i think i like the longer way better.  my next experiments will involve a different mixer. 
first pic is homemade pesto and ricotta with padrones, manchego and peppadews, we really liked the way the manchego cooked.

Offline wheelman

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Re: I tricked my KA into hydrating my dough
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2011, 10:52:58 PM »
I'm reading Wild Bread by Lisa Rayner and came across a reference to "Soakers."  She states that this is a technique from Peter Reinhart's New Techniques, Extraordinary Flavor.  it sounds exactly like the long effective hydration flour/water autolise that i've been trying here.  it says that: "this method allows the malt sugar to accumulate in greater amounts before the sourdough lactobacteria get a chance to start eating it. Thus, more malt sugar ends up in the finished bread, adding sweetness and enhancing the Maillard browning reactions during baking. Salt must be added to prevent runaway enzyme activity.  Soakers are left at RT for 8-24 hours or up to 3 days refrigerated." also " because these breads contain a higher than normal percentage of malt sugar, they must be baked at temperatures 25-50F lower than other breads to avoid over-carmalization(browning) of the crust."

can anyone help me understand this better? it seems that these pizzas have shown nice browning but i'm not sure what the runaway enzyme activity might be doing - i've never added salt to the eff. hydration part of the dough (yet). 
thanks,
bill