Author Topic: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?  (Read 4181 times)

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Offline David

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King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« on: June 08, 2005, 02:12:18 PM »
Protein 11.3% High Ash Hard Red Winter.Said to mimic European flour.has anyone done a comparison to Caputo with this?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 03:40:23 PM »
David,

Marco may know the answer to your question, but here are the stats on the two flours as best I could find them today:

ORGANIC SELECT ARTISAN FLOUR
Milled from 100% certified organic hard red wheat. Modeled after the lower protein, higher ash flours that are common in Europe, this flour produces a dough with the appropriate mix of extensibility and elasticity-making it the perfect flour for a wide variety of artisan baking applications.

Protein (14% M.B.): 11.3% +/- 0.2%
Ash (14% M.B.): .54% +/- 0.02%
Falling Number: 260 +/- 30 sec.
Enriched: No
Moisture: 14.0%
Wheat Type: Hard Red Winter
Treatment: Certified Organic Malted Barley Flour
Farinograph
Absorption%: 61.0 +/- 2.0
Peak: 7.0 min. +/- 1.5
Stability: 12.5 min. +/- 3.0
MTI: 30 B.U. +/- 10

Caputo 00 pizzeria

Protein 11,5-12,5
Wet Gluten 32-34
W 240-260
Absorption 55-57
Falling number 340-360
p/l 0,5-0,6

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2005, 10:43:47 AM »
David,

To satisfy my curiosity, I went back and looked more carefully into the flour data that I posted yesterday on the King Arthur Select Artisan (KASA) flour and the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour.

Having done some research on the matter, I think it is safe to say that the two flours are not analogs of each other. Looking at the protein levels, however, I think it is easy to see how one might think that one could be used in place of the other. Maybe the following analysis will help clarify the issues and more directly answer your question beyond just posting the specs for the flours as I did yesterday.

Protein. Looking at just the protein levels, one might think that the two flours are fairly similar. However, protein levels alone don't tell much about the type and quality of protein or gluten. It's possible for two flours to have similar protein levels and behave quite differently. One has to look at other parameters of the flours to discern the true differences. We do know, however, that the KASA is milled from hard red winter wheat, which produces a "strong" flour.  By contrast, the Caputo 00 is milled from national grains and blended with a "strong" flour, known as Manitoba, which increases the overall protein level of the Caputo 00 flour. Because of that supplementation, the Caputo 00 flour has more overall protein than other brands of 00 flour available in the U.S., such as the Bel Aria, Delverde, etc.

Ash. Ash is a measurement of what remains after a sample of a flour is incinerated. A high number suggests a high extraction rate (the removal of things like bran, germ, etc.). The KASA has an ash number of 0.54. I don't have the corresponding number for the Caputo 00, but my recollection is that it is somewhere around 0.50. I know that at one time, the maximum ash content under Italian law was 0.50. If my number is correct, that suggests that the KASA retains more of the bran, germ, etc., where the mineral content is highest.

Falling Number. The falling number is a measurement that indicates the level of amylaze enzyme activity in a flour. It is viewed in relation to the amount of damaged starch in the flour that the amylase enzymes converts to sugar to feed the yeast during fermentation. The greater the starch damage, the greater the tendency on the part of millers to supplement the amylase enzyme (with barley malt or fungal amylase). The degree of amylase enzyme activity is inversely proportional to the falling number (i.e., the higher the number the lower the amylase enzyme activity, and vice versa). The low falling number for the KASA (260) implies the addition of barley malt to supplement the natural amylase enzyme levels of the underlying flour. The high falling number for the Caputo 00 (340-360) implies no malt supplementation and low amylase enzyme activity. This suggests that a Caputo 00 dough is capable of long fermentation. 

Absorption. Absorption has to do with the ability of a flour to absorb water and attain a certain dough consistency. We often refer to it as hydration percentage. For the KASA, it is 61%; for the Caputo 00, it is 55-57%. The differences in these values tells us that the type of protein/gluten in the KASA is capable of absorbing more water than the type of protein/gluten in the Caputo 00. It also suggests that the KASA is a somewhat "stronger" flour than the Caputo 00 even though the protein levels are comparable.

W . W is a number that is proportional to the strength of a dough and its ability to resist deformation. Molino Caputo publishes this figure but, like almost all U.S. companies, King Arthur doesn't. The Caputo number of 240-260 is in a range that implies a dough that is strong enough to withstand reasonably long fermentation. However, it is not as strong as other doughs based on higher gluten flours.

p/l. The p/l number is an indication of the elasticity ("springback")/plasticity (extensibility) characteristics of a dough. A high figure suggests higher protein content and higher absorption. The typical range for p/l for bread dough is 0.4-0.7. At 0.5-0.6, the Caputo 00 falls within that range.  A Caputo 00 dough will handle better than doughs made from other 00 flours but not as well as one based on much higher protein/gluten levels.

Other Specs. The other specs, like Peak, Stability and MTI (Mixing Tolerance Index), have to do with relative strength of a flour and dough and the ability of the dough to withstand kneading for prolonged periods before the gluten suffers damage. The numbers for the KASA suggest a very high quality flour. We do not have the numbers for the Caputo 00 but I am reasonably certain they are lower than for the KASA because it is a somewhat weaker flour with lower absorption and, quite likely, because of a somewhat different protein/gluten profile.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 02:23:17 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline David

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2005, 12:01:13 PM »
Wow Peter!I'm on my first espresso of the day and by the third I might actually begin to "Get my head around " all that good stuff you have provided.I was actually wondering if any Forum members had with this KA flour,as I it was new to me.and when I get my starter ready I intend to try this and the OO.Thank you.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2005, 01:12:02 PM »
David,

You might not believe this, but I gave you the simple explanation. In millers circles there are a lot of charts and graphs that explain the subject in a more accurate way.

I might have added that it is not out of the question to try the KASA flour to make a Neapolitan style pizza. It is quite common to use all-purpose flour to make Neapolitan style pizza doughs, and recipes for doing this are quite common in pizza cookbooks. In fact, you are highly unlikely to find any dough recipes using 00 flour in any cookbook on the subject of pizza. The majority of them are at this forum. Even Pamela Sheldon Johns, who wrote an entire cookbook on Neapolitan pizzas, did not include a 00 dough recipe in it. She used a recipe calling for a combination of all-purpose flour and cake flour. Other similar recipes call for combining all-purpose flour and pastry flour or bread flour and cake/pastry flour in order to emulate the 00 flour. I suspect that these recipes came into being because very few people in this country were even aware of 00 flour and, if they were aware, they didn't know where to find it or it was a real hassle to get it. 

You might discover that the KASA flour won't quite work for Neapolitan style pizzas, or you may have to experiment with it, as by adding other flours as discussed above. Once you get the Caputo 00 flour, you may decide that it isn't worth playing around with the KASA flour to make Neapolitan style pizzas. I'll be very interested in your results in any event.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2005, 05:54:04 PM »
I would like to add that the ratio of gluten to total protein can vary considerably from flour to flour. That is why thje W factor is much more usefull.

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Offline Les

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 06:21:06 PM »
David,

Marco may know the answer to your question, but here are the stats on the two flours as best I could find them today:

ORGANIC SELECT ARTISAN FLOUR  . . . Protein (14% M.B.): 11.3% +/- 0.2%

Hi Peter.  First, great report.  Is this info available online?

Today I saw KA's Artisan Organic flour in the store, but the protein percentage listed on the back was only 3% (I think . . . it might have said 4%), while KA's bread flour shows 4%.  The highest protein flour I saw is made by an old West Coast company called Stone-Burr at 5%.  I bought some to try (anyone else ever tried it?).

Anyway, I am wondering if I am interpreting your 11.5 figure wrong somehow or if the stuff I saw in the store is different from what you are talking about.

Something else I saw was a variety of flour called "White Whole Wheat."  Has anybody ever tried to work with that?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 07:30:49 PM »
Les,

The specs for some of the King Arthur specialty flours can be found at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/Primary%20sell%20sheet.pdf. You have to interpret the numbers and what they mean in a practical sense, as I tried to do in the report you referenced. I got most of the data for the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour from a post by fellow member pizzanapoletana (Marco).

I believe you may have misinterpreted the protein numbers on the bags of flours you looked at. The protein is specified in grams per serving, which is usually 30 grams. For example, if a flour has 4 grams per 30 gram serving, you would be inclined to conclude that the percent protein is 4/30 = 13.3%. That might be right but it might also be wrong. You can't rely on the information on the package of flour to determine its percentage of protein because flour is subject to the round-off rule. So the 4 grams you mentioned can actually be as low as 3.5 grams or as high as 4.49 grams, which will give you a range that is so wide as not to convey anything useful to you. Unless you have access to spec sheets like at King Arthur, you really have to call the miller to get the actual protein percentage numbers.

I'm curious to know where you found the KA Artisan Organic flour in a store. I have never seen it at the retail level.

The Stone-Buhr flour you mention is a high quality, high-protein flour that comes from an old-line company that has been around for around 100 years if I am not mistaken. Its products are regional and therefore not available in most parts of the country. One of our members, addicted, has used it with good results, which he reported at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,685.msg6192.html#msg6192.

The King Arthur “White Whole Wheat” flour is a fairly new flour that is intended to be a substitute for traditional whole wheat flour. Where it is supposed to differ from the traditional whole wheat flour is that it is milled from hard white winter wheat rather than from hard winter red wheat. It is said to have the same high fiber and natural wheat germ of the whole wheat flour. The color of the flour will be lighter, which has appeal to many bakers.

Peter

Offline Les

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Re: King Arthur Artisan Organic Select / Caputo 00 Compare?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 08:39:23 PM »
Quote
I believe you may have misinterpreted the protein numbers on the bags of flours you looked at.

Yes Peter, I'm a moron.  Every quality or component listed on the bag is in percentages EXCEPT protein, which switches to grams.  But still, I was surprised to see the artisan flour showing less protein than their bread flour.

Quote
I'm curious to know where you found the KA Artisan Organic flour in a store. I have never seen it at the retail level.

Well, I live in the "wine country" north of SF, so you might suspect, being a big food state anyway, that some stores carry unique stuff.  I check the flours regularly at a gourmet store here, and today I saw the artisan flour for the first time.  They are selling it at a premium price, and only in what looked like a little 1 or 2 lb. bag.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them all out.


 

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