Struggling with the dough!!!

[rshoward]

Hi.  I am struggling with Jeff Varasono's dough recipe.  The problem is that the dough "fights me" - it doesn't want to stretch and it tears.  This is my procedure:
1.) mix 330 grams filtered water, 382.2 grams King Arthur Bread Flower, 18 grams sea salt and 45 grams sourdough starter (poolish) for about a minute and let sit for 20 minutes.
2.) turn mixer (KitchenAid) on low and mix for about 5-6 minutes then begin adding remaining flour (127.5 grams), clicking speed up a notch. 
3.) when dough forms a ball stop and let rest for 20 minutes.
4.) move dough to floured marble surface, form into a ball, and cut into 3 equal portions.
5.) rest about 20 minutes and place into plastic containers that are put in 'fridge.

Problem is that when I attempt to make the pizza the dough just won't cooperate.  I have tried working the dough straight from the fridge and letting it warm for 1 hour.  No luck. 

Any help and advice would be MUCH appreciated!

Thanks,
Steve

[The Dough Doctor]

Steve;
Your procedure won't work when you use a starter as you are. Instead, after you divided the dough into pieces, place each into an oiled, plastic container and cover lightly with a piece of foil, and set aside to ferment at room temperature. I can't say how long this will take as I don't know anything about the type or strength of your starter, but it could take anything from 5 to 6-hours at the short end to 1 day or more at the long end. Watch the dough balls, when they have grown somewhat, and are resilient to the touch, try opening one up, if it opens easily, they are ready to go, if not, you will need to wait longer.
Can you add yeast? Yes you can, and then you don't need to wait nearly as long, but the yeast will become the dominant microflora, completely overwhelming the bacteria in the sour, hence your sour flavor will be lost.
One last thing, most sourdough starters are used at around 20% of the total flour weight. This is assuming a wet, active starter.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[rshoward]

Dear Tom.  Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post.  I am using one of Ed Wood's starters so it's about a 50/50 mix of flour and water.  It is the Italian culture and is very active (lots of nice foam and bubbles).  I did exactly as you said yesterday, letting the dough ferment at room temp for about 6 hours, but still no luck.  When I tred to form the pizza the dough simply resists my attempts to stretch it out - it pulls back and sometimes tears.  The first 5 minutes of my mixing (after the autolyse has completed) is with 75% of the flour and then I start to add the additional 25% of the flour slowly.   When I finish the dough is no longer sticking but is more or less a ball.  Also, during the final stages of mixing the dough tends to "climb" the hook of my KithenAid.  Do you think maybe I'm just not mixing properly?  Once again, I do appreciate any advice.

Steve

[Jet_deck]

When and how do you add the salt?

[rshoward]

I have been mixing the salt in the water and adding it to the dough/starter mix just before autolysing.  I got this advice from Ed Wood's book. 

[rshoward]

Also, a follow up to my response to Tom.  I made a batch of dough yesterday, and put 2 of the balls in the fridge and kept one out at room temp.  About 6 hours later I tried to use that one to make a pizza, and sure enough the dough just wouldn't perform. 

Steve

[Jet_deck]

66% hydration, .03% salt.  You mix for 5 min with 75% of the flour, autolyse (how long ?) and mix again for how long?  C hook, paddle, or dough hook?

[rshoward]

I autolyse for 20 minutes at room temp, then mix with a KitchenAid using a dough hook.  My suspicion is that mixing is the problem, but I am a beginner so I don't really know what to look for.  I think all goes well while the dough is still wet, but I'm worried about what happens as I add the rest of the flour.  It usually takes about 5-10 minutes to mix the rest in.  Once again, I really appreciate you responding to my posts.

Thanks,
Steve

[Jet_deck]

I'm a newbie too.  Everyone is always very helpful here.  I suspect your over kneading it. It takes 5-10 minutes because you make it take that long or because your eye says its not mixed properly?

[rshoward]

Well, I just keep mixing until the dough is more or less a ball.  I'm afraid I don't have enough experience to know what the "feel" or "look" of the final dough should be. 

[Jet_deck]

... I'm afraid I don't have enough experience to know what the "feel" or "look" of the final dough should be.... 

You and me both, but it does get easier. It is not as pretty as you might think.  It can still be tacky, and look rough like an orange peel. Once it rests and develops gluten it looks much nicer.  I don't know if this is an option, but the Tartine Bread book by Chad Roberts has brought alot of info to the forum.You should get a copy if you see fit.  It seems that members are being kinder and gentler to the dough than ever before.

Just for kix and giggles, why don't you try a 2 minute mix, autolyse, and then no more than 4 minutes on the final mix.  Let it rest and then ball.  See if they open up any easier.  Good luck, keep us posted.

[chickenparm]

Well, I just keep mixing until the dough is more or less a ball.  I'm afraid I don't have enough experience to know what the "feel" or "look" of the final dough should be. 

On Jeff's website,his dough mix looks a lot like a wet batter.There are pictures of when he pours it out and makes it into a dough ball on the bench with a little flour.He is using a very wet dough intended for very high temps.Are you mixing until it looks like a dough ball in the mixer bowl?

[dellavecchia]

Steve - How long are you letting the dough sit in the fridge?

John

[Pete-zza]

Steve,

By any chance are you re-balling or re-kneading or otherwise re-forming the dough balls before opening them up to form skins?

Peter

[doodneyy]

Take a look at the pics about 3/4 down the page http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10826.140.html
As you can see the dough is pretty wet.  I bet Peter is correct.

m.

[Pizzeria Agustini]

It seems to me that since you're having a hard time opening and stretching your dough ball it might be that your gluten has not developed all that well. Perhaps you're putting in to much flour since it takes you 10 minutes to complete the kneading with your dough hook. 

I would suggest that you try getting the right consistency before you autolyse while mixing at low speed. When your dough is tacky sticky stop adding flour.

Rest your dough for 10-20 minutes and then mix again at medium. Maybe about 4-5 minutes. Do the window pane test. (pinch a  ping pong ball size of dough and stretch it slowly and gingerly while turning it trying to achieve the thinnest film of dough without tearing) If you are able to get that window pane "translucent" consistency then your ball is good to go.

Scoop out and make a ball. Pour a little oil into a stainless steel bowl and turn your dough ball in the bowl coating the entire ball with oil.

Bulk rest. When it doubles in size you can start portioning.

You should be able to get that stretch you're aspiring for.

[chrisgraff]

I wonder if your starter is too young.  Try adding a pinch of IDY (or ADY).  You might also try the Raquel dough.  It is nearly impossible to mess up!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.20.html (reply #24)