Author Topic: Pizza Bianca  (Read 28614 times)

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Offline frascatano

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Pizza Bianca
« on: June 08, 2005, 06:11:52 PM »
I'm a new member.  I have just come back from five years living in Frascati and was closely involved with the cuisine of Lazio and Rome.  I am a proficient home-pizzaiolo in the neapolitan style and try to stick to authenticity.  The one thing that always seems to escape my abilities is Roman Pizza Bianca.  I can't explain to any of you how extraordinary this stuff is.  I know that you have to make it in big ammounts, but I have alot of equipment.  The problem is that no one knows what it is, or they don't know how to make it if they do know of it(me included).  Another problem is that peolpe automatically assume I am talking about some kind of focaccia or other bread that goes by the name of "white pizza" in the Italian Republic.  I anyone knows about the real Roman pizza bianca, or, more importantly, knows how to simulate it here, please let me know.



Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 07:38:14 PM »
frascatano,
Welcome.

Do not give up hope. We have a number of members that can and probably will help you. It's only a matter of time. I can think of two right off the top of my head that would know exactly what you are referring to.

We also like to reverse engineer different types of pizza. Your description of Pizza Bianco could be a fascinating challenge. I would personally be interested in assisting as I'm sure a handful of others would be as well. Why don't you describe Pizza Bianco at whatever level of detail you can to launch the challenge.

You might be surprised to see how much this community can help.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

roberto

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2005, 06:59:10 AM »
Hi,I`m native  from Rome,live know in Gernamy and will try to help you.

Pizza Bianca is made of  normal Pizza dough,cooked in "Pans" (45*65cm) but as used in Rome- in an electric ofen (also at high temp.>350C).
On The Pizza they put only olive oil,salt and a bit of Rosmarin(<= hope in english it is called so).The pizza is about 1 cm thick,very soften in the middle...
"with bigger bubbles of air" (hope you can understand what I mean)

and...that´s all....

It taste very well - I know.......I missed it too :( 
 


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2005, 08:40:04 AM »
I first had pizza bianca at the Antico Forno in Campo de' Fiori. It is awesome stuff and not so hard to bake something that is close. The dough is easy.; loading it into the oven so that is stretches out thin enough is not so easy because it so sticky, but even when it comes out thicker than the real thing, it is still fabulous and light and full of big whole and lots of flavor. A lot of salt goes on this bread, but it is absolutely essential.

Here is the dough recipe I use, based on one from Steingarten:

                     
* Exported from MasterCook *

                                Pizza Bianca

Recipe By     :
Serving Size  : 0     Preparation Time :0:00
Categories    : Breads                          Pizza

  Amount  Measure       Ingredient -- Preparation Method
--------  ------------  --------------------------------
  480            Grams  Bread Flour
  1           Teaspoon  Salt -- 1 1/4
  1 1/4      Teaspoons  Sugar
  1           Teaspoon  Instant Yeast
  470            Grams  Water
     1/8           cup  bread flour
         
                        Olive Oil
                        Salt
                        Flour

In bowl of electric mixer, stir together flour, yeast, salt, and sugar, and water

5 minutes @ #1

2 minutes @ #2

2 minutes @ #4

10 minutes @ #6

8 minutes @ #8 until completely balled

Mix in 1/8 cup flour @ # 2 for 1 minute

Scrape dough into oiled bowl. Cover with plastic/

Place in refrigerator overnight

Take out 3 hours before baking

Allow to rise to 3x

Heavily flour contertop and pour out dough.

Fold over in half

Cut into 3 pieces

Stretch each piece into 12" x 4" rectangle

Roll tighly into a cylinder 8" across

Place rolls seam side down onto floured surface

Brush with olive oil

Sprinkle each with scant 1 teaspoon of salt

Allow to rise until doubled - when you poke a finger into dough, it will not spring back much. Each piece should be 4-5" wide and 10" long

Lightly flour peel with rice flour.

Place a dough into center of peel. dimple the dough using fingers of both hands 6-8 times

Brush oil in and around the dimples avoiding the edges

Dimple again about 20-30 times to stretch the dough into 8" x 12" rectangle

Here is the tricky part: when unloading into the oven, pull and jerk the peel to stretch out the dough.

Bake until golden brown

Let cool briefly and brush with more oil, the best EVO oil you have

Description:
  "Based on Pizza Bianca - Steingarten"
Cuisine:
  "Italian"
                                    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 08:42:04 AM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2005, 04:38:14 PM »
I have to correct most of you. Pizza bianca is not made with a normal pizza dough. It is made with a 90% hydration dough!!!

Yes, I have not made a mistake in typing. 90%. The best one you can find in Rome, according to some experts, is at Pizzarium. The owner/chef/pizzamaker is also a baking teacher at Gambero Rosso cooking school.

To achieve this is necessary a technique called "rigeneri" and high speed spiral mixers. I have partially described the technique in the Sicilian pizza threads.

Ciao

Offline frascatano

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2005, 03:52:37 PM »
Thank you all for the wonderful information.  I am not convinced that anyone here has nailed pizza bianca as I know it from Rome and the Castelli, but it is helpful food for thought.  I would be inclined to agree that normal pizza dough is very far from the dough of pizza bianca.  I think that this opinion is from someone who has not had the pizza bianca that I am talking about.  Also, I know the stretching element is essential and that this is simply not possible for the home baker.  If anyone else has thought about this topic, please post them.  It is awfully helpful.  Also if anyone has a particular memory of this wonderful bread, send it my way.  I for one always loved the pizza bianca of an old bakery that simply posted the word "forno" above its door in Marino.  This stuff was fit for the gods.  Also, Ceralli, a great bakery in Frascati produced pizza bianca that far surpassed the antico forno by campo di fiori.  All the best!

Offline giotto

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 02:31:18 PM »
Frascatano

When in Rome, you are near perceived Gods.  Part of this forum is about sharing.  Right now, unfortunately, we only have a personal preference with regard to your pizza.  Please share with us more description and departures of Ceralli vs. Antico Forno.

What texture are you specifically looking for  (thinner, crispier, softer, moister, melting effect, stiffness factor and any other characteristics) and taste?  At least the attributes you are looking to mimic will extend to others.

Thank you.  I'll look forward to your home-pizzaiolo down the road as well as we re-engineer other Neapolitan styles.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 02:15:21 AM by giotto »

Offline Hank

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2005, 02:23:12 PM »
Hi I am new to the forum and to pizza making but give the Chicago crust pizza listed in the recipe 5 stars, it came out wonderful.  I am on a quest to find a white pizza recipe, the crust seems pretty basic but the one I have had was from a place in our area known  as Pizza Plus (upstate NY near albany)  IT had a wonderful garlic cheesy but also buttery flavor topping, it came with broccoli unless you said plain, it was very good, does anyone have a recipe or suggestions re: not losing the butter flavor withing the garlic and cheese, the forum is great, I am learning every time I read it :D

Offline Rick

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2005, 03:16:17 AM »
I have to correct most of you. Pizza bianca is not made with a normal pizza dough. It is made with a 90% hydration dough!!!

Yes, I have not made a mistake in typing. 90%. The best one you can find in Rome, according to some experts, is at Pizzarium. The owner/chef/pizzamaker is also a baking teacher at Gambero Rosso cooking school.

To achieve this is necessary a technique called "rigeneri" and high speed spiral mixers. I have partially described the technique in the Sicilian pizza threads.

Ciao


Hallo, last Friday I've just bought pizza from Pizzarium in Rome.... 
Wow.... it's amazing!!!!  The owner is one of the best in Rome and his pizza is simply stunning!!!  ;D

Offline mrbthree

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2007, 08:06:50 PM »
Bill,

I want to follow your modified recipe for this pizza, with the exception that I want to use Ischia starter. Would I be in the ball park if I substituted 15% of total dough weight for the 1 teaspoon of IDY? And, gave it a 12 hour room temperature rise time? What do you think?


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2007, 08:29:28 PM »
Bill,

I want to follow your modified recipe for this pizza, with the exception that I want to use Ischia starter. Would I be in the ball park if I substituted 15% of total dough weight for the 1 teaspoon of IDY? And, gave it a 12 hour room temperature rise time? What do you think?

If you're referring to the recipe above from 2005, I haven't made it that way for quite a while. But I substitute the Italian starters all of the time for recipes that call for commercial yeast. 15-20% of total dough weight is a good start, but fermenting and proofing times are generally much longer than those for commercial yeast (which is a good thing). You also need to account for the flour and water in the starter and adjust accordingly.

Bill/SFNM

Offline mrbthree

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2007, 02:34:52 PM »
Bill,

Thanks. Would you like to elaborate on how you make it now?

Do you have a formula you use to account for the water and flour in the starter?

I take about 1 cup of starter, add 1/2 cup of flour and 1/3 cup of water and activate it. After it begins to push up on the lid of a quart size yogurt container, I repeat this once more.
My starter is thicker than Dr. Wood's batter starter . My starter is very creamy and springy, but still sticky; it's thicker than the "batter" starter of Dr. Wood. Dr. Wood would call my starter a "sponge", I suspect.
So, I would guess that my starter is about 50% flour and 33% water when it goes into the pot.(edit): Wait, that can't be right, that's only 83%. I need help, I can't seem to get my head around this percentage concept.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 11:03:12 AM by mrbthree »

Offline ratana

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2007, 10:23:02 AM »
Hi, just want to know if anyone is still working on this one?  I haven't really noticed any activity since february.... I have given this a shot, many times now, and have been getting consistent results.  The only thing I have to compare to is my one experience with Sullivan St. Bakery's version of it (Manhattan).

I have mainly followed Steingartens method, with the 90 minute rise.  I've also retarded the dough overnight in the fridge, with 1/4t yeast, and then a 6 hour room temperature rise.   I found the retarded rise makes for a subtle but noticeable difference in the character/texture of the bread, not so much the flavor.

So I have some questions for those of you who have been making this one -

1 - I have found that trying to slide it off of my peel into the oven and shake it and stretch it out has only resulted in disaster. I stretch it on parchment paper with no cornmeal underneath (not really a big fan of cornmeal on bread or pizza).  This actually might be a tip for some who want to avoid a mess 100% of the time, but, just wondering for those who have been successful with the peel, shake method, if you have any advice or tips on how not to get it to immediately bond to the stone and cause a mess often.


2 -I am finding I cannot really get the "dimples" to stay there in the final product after the oven spring.  It's not a big deal but I'm wondering if it's an indication I am trying to stretch it too much on the parchment, etc.  I can tell when the dough has overrisen and "collapsed" so its definitely not a question of that, it's more like I can't achieve the texture I experienced at sullivan street.  Part of the problem may be that the way the steingarten method calls for rolling into cylinders, etc, it's just not as WIDE as the bianca I've had.  mine are at most maybe 5 inches wide.  so maybe that's it. but wondering what everyone elses experiences are.

3- I want to experiment with longer, room temperature fermentation, to really get closer to Sullivan St and how I'm sure they do it in Rome.  Anyone have any ideas how much yeast/time to use? I  recently got a thermokool fridge as mentioned in the prep equipment section of the site, so am excited to mess around with some controlled risings..

Offline damselfish

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 03:16:27 PM »
Rose Levy Berenbaum has a recipe in The Bread Bible that's an attempt at replicating the Sullivan Street Bakery Pizza Bianca. In the book she calls it Rosemary Focaccia, but on her blog she calls it "The Infamous Rosemary Focaccia" because so many people have written to her telling her about their failures with the very wet, pourable, dough. I've tried it a couple of times. Although it's not Sullivan Street, it is the closest I've come so far. But then, I've been working with focaccia, not pizza, recipes. You might want to try hers and see if you think it's worth experimenting with.

parallei

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2010, 09:55:03 PM »
Reviving an old thread I guess.  Some things old are new to others....

I’ve been messing about with thicker pies, some successful, some not. Below are a few photos of tonight’s Pizza Bianca using Jim Lahey’s no knead method.  We liked it quite a bit.  It had a nice thin layer of crispness (not hard, just a snap) on the top and bottom and was moist on the inside.  Next time I might give it a few more minutes and/or stretch it out a bit thinner.  It was great split and stuffed with whatever one wanted.  A keeper for sure.

parallei

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2010, 11:17:59 PM »
This stuff is addictive  :-D

14" Pie

Flour (100%):  400.22 g| 14.12 oz | 0.88 lbs

Water (87.5%):  350.19 g | 12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs

IDY (1%):  4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp

Salt (1%):  4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.72 tsp | 0.24 tbsp

Sugar (1%):  4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp

Total (190.5%):  762.42 g | 26.89 oz | 1.68 lbs
TF = 0.1747

Mix dry ingredients
Add water mix - cover and let set 9-12 hrs.
Onto bench (well floured) fold over 2 or 3 times
Brush with olive oil, sprinkle with course salt
Let rise 1 to 2 hrs.
On to peel (or I used parchment paper) and dimple/spread to 14" dia. or equivalent
Drizzle with more olive oil - fresh rosemary
On to stone @ 500F for 12 to 15 min.


Offline norma427

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2010, 08:08:24 AM »
parallei,

That looks like great focaccia!  :)  I bet it was nice and light with all those voids.

Norma

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2011, 04:54:38 PM »
Parallei, thank you for linking to this thread.   I am experimenting with a thick sicilian/pizzarium/foccacia pizza/bread thingy tonight.   :-D  I'm gonna try and make it out of my typical pizza dough. 

Your results look fabulous.  I will have to study this recipe you posted and see what I can get out of them.  Do you recall what type of flour you used?  I assume BF of some sort or was it a HG flour?  Fantastic photography as well.  Good job.

Chau
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 06:03:12 PM by Jackie Tran »

parallei

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2011, 05:33:14 PM »
Yeah Chau, to many names for this stuff :-D.  This stuff is much lighter and crisper than any foccacia I had while in Liguria.

I used KAAP.....seems to work fine. I did it on the stone and found parchment paper a must, but that's just me.

Best,

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Bianca
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2011, 06:02:22 PM »
Yeah Chau, to many names for this stuff :-D.  This stuff is much lighter and crisper than any foccacia I had while in Liguria.

I used KAAP.....seems to work fine. I did it on the stone and found parchment paper a must, but that's just me.

Best,

Paul

Thanks for the tip.  Mine tonight is made with 75% 00 flour and 25% HG.  I will remember to use the parchment paper.   

Chau