Author Topic: Coloration  (Read 4050 times)

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Offline David

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Coloration
« on: June 10, 2005, 02:55:09 PM »
I notice that after looking a numerous pictures of pizzas produced at DaMichelle and Trianon that they seem to have an intense amount of very small blisters that I have taken to refering to as 'Leoparding'.If it wasn't for this I imagine that the Pizzas would look quite pale?I think i read somewhere that this was due to the fermentation (under?) If anyone could throw some light on this it would be appreciated.
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Offline ebpizza

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2005, 03:06:35 PM »
the blistering is from the very hot wood fired ovens of Naples.
700+ degrees.

Offline David

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2005, 03:19:14 PM »
I tend to think that there is more to it than that?I have seen countless Pizzas produced in wood fired ovens worldwide  so if it was purely a case of intense heat I think that they would all exhibit similar characteristics.With respect to Bill/SFNM ,we can see from the recent photos of the Pizza he produced in a wood fired oven that this phenomenon is surely created by some other reaction.
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Offline dinks

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2005, 03:52:29 PM »
DAVID:
  Good Afternoon to you. You are right my friend .Small blisters on the surface of a yeasted lean dough product is associated with improper fermentation & or excessive hydration. Good luck & have a nice day my friend.
  ~DINKS.

Offline David

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2005, 03:58:57 PM »
Improper in what way Dinks?
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2005, 04:02:38 PM »
With respect to Bill/SFNM ,we can see from the recent photos of the Pizza he produced in a wood fired oven that this phenomenon is surely created by some other reaction.

David,
The crust color of my last pizza, which was the first to use natural starter only, was different from my previous attempts. The bottom did have many small black spots, but the top just had a few larger ones and the edge was paler than normal.  It should be noted that pizzas near the end of the batch had more spots on the top that earlier ones, so underproofing may be a factor.

My oven roof is more of a dome than the flattened shape Marco recommends that radiates more heat back onto the top of the pie. When removing the pie from the oven, I usually lift it up close to the roof for 10-15 seconds to give the top a quick, hot,  blast. This time I did not do that because I wanted to observe how my oven handles the different natural starters. I've got another pizza baking session scheduled for tomorrow using the Camodoli culture and I'll try a few different things to see what the effect is on the color.   

To be honest, I'm so thrilled to be using these natural starters and getting really good results, that color is less important than texture and flavor, but  crust color can be a strong indicator of flavor. As the Japanese saying goes, "you begin eating with your eyes" .


Offline David

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2005, 04:20:04 PM »
Can you try holding one up to the roof of the oven before you place it on the cooking floor rather than before you remove it Bill?.I had posed this question before but no one commented,so i,m interested to see yor results.Cheers Bill.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2005, 04:27:46 PM »
Pizza should not brown, but rather amber and with the blistering. Bread crust needs to brown.

If a pizza is yellow on the base, that is due to too much flour that also results in a bitter taste.

The blistering for improper fermentation are different to the one we are talking about at Da Michele or in my pizza.
When the dough has not fermented properly, it form very small, tiny little boubles that then blister in an hot oven.

That is not the case at Da Michele.

I would like also to add something:

The good development of a dough in an home setting (without the professional three cold rooms/ three temperatures necessary for cold fermentation) can only be achieved by a long fermentation at room temperature with tiny amount of yeast. The enzymes work better at temperature above 18 degree celsius, and that is a fact!

Ciao

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2005, 04:29:51 PM »
David

you can't do that...

The pizza needs to firm up on the hot oven floor before you lift it. Remember mastering the cooking in a wood oven is not easy, but once you get hold of it, a new world will open.

Offline dinks

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2005, 04:28:25 PM »
DAVID:
  Good Afternoon to you. I am sorry I was tardy in answering you. I have had some medical problems.
  David, Improper fermentation can be many things. One that comes to mind because it is the summer time is when a yeasted lean bread dough is mixed it is left to fully frerment. If left carelessly in a draft in the corner of a room with either a fan or air-conditioning is working it wiill be in  a draft....cool air.This will result in a retarted dough. Another scenerio is fermenting in the re-fridge.  These blissters occur most often when the baking is done on the hearth. They are caused by escaping gases from the crust. Gas is lost more quickly in cool dough because cooling increase the solubility of carbon dioxide in water.
  Food scientist claim these blisters are caused by gas being lost from the outer layers of the crust faster (In speed) than new gas can come about & diffuse into the cells (To Circulate).
  Upon baking, the water in the crust will accumulate in the small cells remaining & under heat will  form blisters.
  David, good luck & have a nice day.
   ~DINKS.


Offline David

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2005, 04:59:29 PM »
Very interesting and thank you Dinks.I trust you are feeling better and appreciate you response.
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Offline frascatano

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 01:24:44 PM »
Gentlemen,

Thoughtful and interesting discussion.  I am primarily a bread baker, and these tiny bubbles are actually the sign of a highly complex and well fermented bread.  As has been pointed out, a long fermentation, retarded by low temperatures, increases this blistering.  This is just the sort of thing that makes for a great french country loaf.  But I have never seen such blisters in Naples pizzerie.  So I would say that while they are not authentic for this style of pizza (or any pizza for that matter), to say "improper fermentation" might be a bit off the mark.  It is simply a different method for a different product.

All the best,
TB

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Coloration
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2005, 02:39:49 PM »
We are talking about two type of different blistering.

The Traditional neapolitan one are due to the 2 stage fermentation (in bulk and then in balls) while the small tiny ones are either due to the cold- hot effect or to improper fermentation (gluten not mature that cannot expand and then burst....)

Ciao