Author Topic: Giordano's-style Deep Dish  (Read 27214 times)

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Offline buzz

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Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« on: June 11, 2005, 12:03:10 PM »
Tomorrow I'm going to make a Giordano's crust and up the oil content. The most important thing in making Chicago deep dish is the very short kneading time (otherwise you have a glutenized bread dough), so I'm curious how the extra oil will affect the outcome!


Offline Randy

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2005, 12:49:23 PM »
If you add it up front it should help reduce the gluten formation.  That may be why Chicago  pizza has so much oil to counteract the higher gluten content of northan flour.

Take pictures if you can

Randy

Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2005, 01:46:49 PM »
I'm sure they just use AP--it's al about profit!

I don't have a digital camera, so I can't take photos. But I'll give a report.

Offline DKM

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2005, 09:35:09 PM »
Is this based on the recipe you posted before Buzz?

I'm making one based it tomorrow (Sunday).  I'm not using a mixer at all.  Kind of an Emeril thing.

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Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2005, 10:32:24 AM »
Same general idea, but I'm using more oil. I ran into a guy who used to work for Giordano's and he said the raw dough just dripped with oil.

No mixer is good--half the fun is doing it by hand! But the short kneading time (1-2 minutes) is essential for the biscuit-like texture--otherwise you're making bread.

Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2005, 03:28:10 PM »
Here's what I did (cheese deep dish pizza)!

1.5 cups KA AP
6 Tablespoons water
9 teaspoons canola oil
.80 teaspoons yeast
.40 teaspoons Kosher salt
.40 teaspoons sugar

I proofed the yeast in warm water, added it to flour, salt, sugar, and oil. Kneaded it about 1.5 minutes (less than 2 minutes, anyway)--it came together very nicely, very quickly. Let it rise at room temperature for 8 hours. Beautiful piece of dough at this point. I punched it down, let it rest for half an hour. Then rolled it out with a rolling pin and put it immediately into the 10" pan with no further rising. Added half a pound of cheese (half Stella, half Sorrento mozzarella), sauce, and "Parmano" cheese.

Sauce (uncooked) was:

1 28-oz. can 6-in-1 tomatoes
2 cloves garlic, minced
.75 teaspoon Kosher salt
Fresh cracked black pepper
.50 teaspoon sugar
Dried pizza spices, red pepper flakes

It was an excellent pizza, very Giordano's-like, but I made a couple of mistakes. As an experiment, I rolled the dough out very thinly, and this didn't work as well as a slightly thicker dough. Also, I think 9 tsp. is too much oil (I could could taste the oil in the crust)--7 is probably closer to what is needed.

Very, very tasty overall, though!

Offline Randy

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2005, 04:36:22 PM »
What temperature and how long did you cook it Buzz?

Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2005, 10:39:20 AM »
The usual--cooked it at 450 for @30minutes.

Offline burn8

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2005, 11:17:36 PM »
I cant imagine that Giordano's hand kneads their dough. If they are using a mixer for their dough, any idea how they preserve the flakiness of their crust?

-Allan

Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2005, 08:28:27 AM »
Obviously they have to use a mixer--I'm assuming they just shorten the mixing/kkneading time.


Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2005, 09:16:36 AM »
If you look on Giordano's website, the owners say that their recipe was inspired by their mother's Italian Easter pie, aka Pizza Rustica, Torta Rustica, etc.

Here is one such recipe; others use yeast:

3 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
3/4 cup (1 1/2 sticks) cold unsalted butter, cut into pieces
1/4 cup cold solid vegetable shortening, cut into pieces
1 teaspoon salt
3 large eggs, beaten to blend
2 to 4 tablespoons ice water
Blend the flour, the butter, the shortening and salt in a food processor until the mixture resembles coarse meal. Blend in the eggs. With the machine running, add the water 1 tablespoon at a time until the dough forms. Gather the dough into a ball. Divide the dough into 2 pieces, with 1 piece twice as large as the second piece. Flatten the dough pieces into disks. Wrap in plastic wrap and refrigerate until the dough is firm enough to roll out, about 30 minutes.


Here is a short  kneading time (just until it comes together) and lots of fat--both elements will produce a more flaky, biscuit-like dough. I know that Giordano's uses only oil, so the flakiness has to be the result of just the right amount. I need to play around some more!
 


Offline burn8

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2005, 12:46:59 PM »
Im also interested in a recipe that provides a consistent level of flakiness.

I am currently trying a version of your posted recipe with zero trans fat crisco replacing boththe olive and canola oils. I didnt even wait for the dough to come together this time, i just pressed the scrappy mess into ball after about one minute of kneading and let it rise for one hour before putting it into the refrigerator. Even with the abbreviated knead, I still got more rise than I had expected to get.

-Allan

Offline IlliniPizza

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2005, 09:19:23 PM »
I live a couple of minutes from a Giordanos, my favorite pizza.

The recipe Buzz posted earlier is nearly dead on.  I have made the pizza using his recipe about 4 times now, and have come up with a few minor alterations that perfect it.

One point of contention that I make is that Giordano's pizza is stuffed, with a bottom layer of dough, and a very thin top layer.  I have looked over the menu, and have never seen a deep dish pizza on there.  Thou, you could easily make one.  The Easter Pie recipe that was just posted appears to point to 2 crusts.

Here is the menu from their website.  http://www.giordanos.com/menu.htm

If you look at the cover of Pat Bruno's book on Chicago Pizza you will notice that the crust bows.  That happens when you add the Sauce.  It weighs down the top layer of dough,  pulling the sides in and away from the pan.  If you have ever seen a finished Giordano's pizza you will notice that the crust around the pizza, always seems to seperate a little around the top, thus the 2 crusts.

Next time I get Giordano's I will take a picture of the crust.  But I did find a picture on the net.  Its not great. 


In the next post I will post the recipe I use to make Giordano's stuffed pizza.  Follow it exactly and you can't go wrong.

As for a flaky crust, I coat the pan with a heavy mixture of crisco, and Butter.  Lots of Butter!!



Offline IlliniPizza

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2005, 09:40:39 PM »
Thanks again buzz for an absolutely excellent recipe!

Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Crust Recipe
Scaled for 9inch Pizza

Dough Ingredients:
3 cups Ceresota or King Arthur Brand All-Purpose Flour  (Measured Scoop and Sweep using a butter knife)
1 ½ teaspoon Kosher Salt
1 ½ teaspoon Granulated Sugar
11 teaspoons Wesson Canola Oil  (individually measured level tsps.)
1 teaspoon Bertolli’s Classic Olive Oil
¾ cup Warm Water
1 ½ teaspoon SAF Yeast

Sauce Recipe:  Make Ahead of Time

1 – 28oz. Can Escalon Brand 6-in-1 All Purpose Ground Tomatoes (completely drained in a double fine strainer) (When I used escalon straight out of the can I got soup).
3/4  teaspoon Minced Garlic
1 teaspoon Sugar
¾ teaspoon Kosher Salt
1 teaspoon Dried Basil

Making the Dough

Proof the yeast. Mix the flour, salt and sugar. Add yeast mixture. With Kitchenaid start mixing with the paddle attachment on stir or speed 1.  Once all ingredients are added and blended.  Use your hands to start to form the dough into a rough ball, Add more water if necessary.

Switch to Dough Hook & knead Exactly one minute. This is the key to the biscuit/pie-like quality of Chicago deep dish pizza. The more you knead, the more bready the result will be. So a short knead is the real secret!

Weigh the dough ball.  Break off 1/3 of the dough ball by weight, this will be the top crust.

Let the dough rise once at room temperature, punch down and place in refrigerator for at least 7 hours.  Take out and let it reach room temperature (about 2 hours). 

Because of the amount of oil in the crust, you really don't need any bench flour.  I don't use any at all, and don't recommend it.

Roll the dough balls out very thin with a rolling pin, so they easily overlap the pan.  About 11 inches for the top crust.  12 inches for bottom crust

Grease a 9inch using a thin layer of Crisco, and lots of melted butter.

Once they rolled flat and thin for the final time, immediately put it in the 9" deep dish pan, don't let it rise in the pan. The size of the dough should be larger than the pan.  Fit the Bottom Layer so that it hangs freely over the edge of the pan evenly. Coat the Top of the dough with a thin layer of olive oil & butter. Add the cheese, layering the toppings and cheese.  Don’t use more then 10oz. of cheese.

Apply Top Layer of Dough, the top should be thin and roughly the same diameter as the previous dough.  Press the dough down to open up room for the sauce.  Poke a couple of thin holes in the top layer of the crust.  Now, Align the 2 doughs.  Using a Rolling Pin, roll around the outside edge of the pan pressing the 2 doughs together and cutting the excess dough off in the process. 

Apply a thin layer of Olive Oil & Butter to the top crust as well.  Don’t prebake the crust.

Now take the well drained sauce, and pour it directly onto the top of the Pizza, making sure not to spill over the sides.  You won't use all the sauce only about 18-20 ounces.

I let my oven pre-heat at 500 for 15 minutes. I put the pizza on the Bottom Rack, turn it to 450, and let it cook about 25 - 30 minutes.

Top with a little Grated Parmesan Cheese

Your Done!

Great Thin Crust pizza - Use the left over dough scraps.  If you didn't use any bench flour when rolling then the scraps should easily roll into a ball.  Using a rolling pin, roll very thin.  Place in pan, and parbake for 3 - 4 minutes.  Add left over Escalon Sauce, top with Mozzarella, and toppings, and bake at 450 for 8-9 minutes.


Offline burn8

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2005, 01:37:52 AM »
I would like to keep working on a canola/olive oil only recipe, but I built the all Crisco version this evening and I could not have been more pleased with the results. The crust was much more biscuit-like than the oil only version.

-Allan

Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2005, 10:21:01 AM »
Glad you liked it! I've had a lot of Girodano's deep dish (which they call "stuffed") pizzas and have watched them make them step-by-step, and there is no second crust--only the single dough layer in the pan. Not that you couldn't make it with a second crust (more to enjoy)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the Crisco--certainly this will produce a flaky crust, but I know that Giordano's uses only oil, so I've been trying to duplicate their pizza at home! The Crisco version results in a very different final taste--nothing wrong with it, but it's not what they have at the restaurant.

They do grease their pans with what looks like Margarine--I asked an employee and she said that she thought that's what it was. I've tried greasing the pan with butter and couldn't detect any measureable difference.

Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2005, 11:24:06 AM »
I also had a talk with a local pizzeria owner who makes a deep dosh quite similar to Giordano's. He said his formula is 50 pounds of flour: 1 gallon oil. If I scale this down correctly, for my 1.5 cups flour, it would be 4.5 TSP. oil.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2005, 08:14:35 PM »
Buzz,

Can you walk me through the conversion?

Peter

Offline buzz

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2005, 11:23:30 AM »
I just converted the entire formula to the number of TSP. involved in both the wet and dry amounts, then divided by 50 to arrive at the formula for one cup of flour--then took it from there. I'm assuming that you can do this for both wet and dry--let me know if this is wrong!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordano's-style Deep Dish
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2005, 01:24:53 PM »
Buzz,

I know you don't use a scale to weigh things so I wondered how you would be able to do the conversion. It occurred to me that you might have used a conversion chart somewhere (there are several on the Internet) that purports to convert weights of food items into volume measurements, but my experience with such charts is that they are unreliable.

I used a brute force method to do the conversion. Here is the sequence of steps I used to do the conversion:

50 pounds of flour = 800 oz. (weight) (50 lbs. x 16 oz. per pound = 800 oz.)
1 gallon oil = 768 t. (volume)
1 T. oil (canola) = 14 grams (weight)--this number came from the label on my canola oil bottle
1 t. oil (canola) = 4.666666 grams (weight) (14 grams/3 = 4.666666 grams)
1 t. oil = 0.164609 oz. (weight) (4.666666 grams/ 28.35 oz. per gram = 0.164609 oz.)
768 t. oil (canola) = 126.41971 oz. (weight) (768 t. x 0.164609 = 126.41971)
Ratio of oil to flour, by weight (baker's percent) = 126.41971/800 = 15.80246%
One and a half cups A-P flour (volume) = 7.40 oz. (weight) (this figure is from my digital scale)
15.80246% of 7.40 oz. = 1.169382 oz. (weight)
1.169382 oz./0.164609 oz. per t. = 7.10 t. oil (volume)

So, unless I made an error somewhere, it looks like your original 6 teaspoons of oil is closer to the amount used on a unit basis by the local pizzeria owner you spoke with. FYI, I assumed that the olive oil weighs the same as canola oil. For the amount of olive oil used, the difference would be de minimis.

Peter