My third stone broke, what to do.

[The Dub Oracle]

My pizza stones keep on breaking.
I made my own electric oven and it works great i must say but today my third stone broke.
The first two stones broke because i thought that they where to close to the bottem and the heating wire.
A to great heat differance i thought, so i chaned it.
I made my stone gliders higher in the oven so the stone will not get any direct heat from the wires below, but today it still broke.
I think of some moist that came over the rim, that caused scrimping because of the temperature difference and expantion, so it broke.
I want to ask if there are even good stones, i had 3 broken all from differend brands.
I pre-heat them for 10 minutes when the oven reaches a temperature of 450 celcius, then i bake a pizza in about 3 minutes.
Am i doomed to make a alluminium tray to hold the broken pieces ?
I can think about nothing else that will solve this problem.
A stone must can handle moist spoils, or temperature chances when you place a cold pizza on top.
Are these stones ment for normal ovens or so, or is it a design failure.
The guidance that came with the latest stone said that you dont must pre-heat the stone, a bit silly because than you never can bake a good pizza, but still they call there product a pizza stone.  
Any advice ?

[The Dub Oracle]

Or would it be about this topic, a old stone, if that would work for me.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14647.0.html
Looks like it, how to do it for yourself for less i would say, 50 dollar is mutch.

[doodneyy]

I would Totally agree..."Old Stone Oven" makes the best commercial brick for home use.
It is the thickest of all the home oven pizza stones...
I had used one for 20 yrs never had an issue until I wfo'd...  

As an aside I have also tried soapstone in the wfo which has resulted in great results...
Found some very inexpensive so gave it a try...
Also, you can always use 1/2 fire brick stones which are perfect for the indoor oven..

Best of fortune..

Ahh.. Just saw you oven & man is it a master...piece!..
Now i understand your issue.

Trythe soap...

m.

[dmcavanagh]

How the hell do you get your electric oven to 450 degrees celcius?

[The Dub Oracle]

I would Totally agree..."Old Stone Oven" makes the best commercial brick for home use.
It is the thickest of all the home oven pizza stones...
I had used one for 20 yrs never had an issue until I wfo'd...  

As an aside I have also tried soapstone in the wfo which has resulted in great results...
Found some very inexpensive so gave it a try...
Also, you can always use 1/2 fire brick stones which are perfect for the indoor oven..

Best of fortune..

Ahh.. Just saw you oven & man is it a master...piece!..
Now i understand your issue.

Trythe soap...

m.

What do you mean with wfo'd ?
My english is not that, i live in Holland see.

I only want to ask you if you use that old stone in the same way as i do, do you pre-heat it ? and also use it in the temperature ?
I just want to be sure, but that stone must be it i would think.
I have also my ferrari G3 oven stil standing, that stone seems to be a lot better, but it can be that the operating temperature is also lower.

[The Dub Oracle]

How the hell do you get your electric oven to 450 degrees celcius?

First of all, this a homebuild oven, i had full control in how to reach these temperatures, and i even reached a temperature of 600 degree celsius.
Before i started building i studied commercial pizza ovens.
I saw that most ovens runned on 380volt and where about 3 kilowatts or more, in that way you must have a 3 fase connection in your home what is expensive to have installed, and those professional ovens are expensive to.
I just recalculated wattage (power consumption) into oven size, because these ovens are mutch bigger.
In that way you can calculate oven volume into power consumption, just make it smaller is the answer.
That became totally clear when i found the first ovens that did run on normal 220volts, from the brand Diamond.
The inner measures of these ovens where about 40*40*20 cm, and they consumed about 2 kilowatts.
My oven is made out of a metal box with the measures of about 41*41*18cm and cunsumes also 2000watts.
The inner space of my oven is even some smaller because i had those durox stones placed of 3 cm thick because they hold the heating wires, you cant connect them to metal.
All must be heated, plus these stones, so you have the same power consumption.
It is just recalculated the resistance of the heating wire into wattage, thats just a electrical formula. ( W=I*U) and (U=I*R)

To reach these temperatures in a normal oven is a total differend story, the heating element has to less power or wattage, and the ovens are way to big in size, they reach about 250 degree celsius, and end story.
The only thing you can do is to resize it ( chainsaw  ) slice a big piece out of the middle and mount it back together.
And even than its the question if you can reach 450 celsius because the heating element has to less power, it must be around 2000 watts in those sizes i spoke of.
The only thing what you can do is to buy a old oven and take the heating element out, and mount that in your oven on the top or bottem ( parallel connected), or you must have ( a to big oven ) oven with a power consumption of 1800 watts and just make it smaller.
You can also buy this heating wire, and place that in your oven, just on the bottem mounted on durox connected parallel.
With other words you will be building it in the same way as i did, and you must have some electrical understanding how to connect these elements safe to reach those temperatures.
I just started from the bottem and build it all myself.
I could have bought that Diamond oven, but it costed about 1000 dollar, my own oven costed me around 100 dollar, but that could be even less if have the right materials at home, plating, stones, isolation and so on.  
  
The biggest problem with good pizza is the oven, thats for sure.
 

[The Dub Oracle]

Image of the situation right here, it makes it a better story to read  

[scott123]

Albert, Old Stone Pizza stones are cordierite, and, although they probably could help in your situation, the cost and shipping charges to Holland make them a poor choice.

I think you need to approach this issue three ways.

1. Get a more thermally resilient stone.  Cordierite is very resilient, but you seem to be pushing your stone a bit further than other common oven applications.  A local ceramic supplier should have cordierite kiln shelves, which would be good, but if you do a little hunting, a ceramic supplier should have cordierite-mullite or just plain mullite shelves, which are a little more durable.

2. Control the heat reaching the stone.  Ceramic, regardless of how thermally resilient it is, doesn't like to be heated quickly 10 minutes to 450 C. is quick.  Do you have any way of controlling the heat so the stone doesn't heat up so quickly?  If you don't have a way of controlling the heat, then I would suggest putting a metal barrier between the bottom heat source and the stone, such as sheet metal.

3. It takes some trial and error, but if you make the pizza smaller than the stone, stretch it carefully and use the right amount of cheese and sauce, you can avoiding any liquids getting on the stone. Not that cordierite can't handle spills- but if you make pizza properly you shouldn't be getting spills all that often.


Btw, what are the screws doing in the door?  Do those screws make contact with the stone?  You aren't moving the stones in and out of the oven, right?

Oh, and no aluminum, you're pretty close to aluminum melting temps.

[The Dub Oracle]

Albert, Old Stone Pizza stones are cordierite, and, although they probably could help in your situation, the cost and shipping charges to Holland make them a poor choice.

I think you need to approach this issue three ways.

1. Get a more thermally resilient stone.  Cordierite is very resilient, but you seem to be pushing your stone a bit further than other common oven applications.  A local ceramic supplier should have cordierite kiln shelves, which would be good, but if you do a little hunting, a ceramic supplier should have cordierite-mullite or just plain mullite shelves, which are a little more durable.

2. Control the heat reaching the stone.  Ceramic, regardless of how thermally resilient it is, doesn't like to be heated quickly 10 minutes to 450 C. is quick.  Do you have any way of controlling the heat so the stone doesn't heat up so quickly?  If you don't have a way of controlling the heat, then I would suggest putting a metal barrier between the bottom heat source and the stone, such as sheet metal.

3. It takes some trial and error, but if you make the pizza smaller than the stone, stretch it carefully and use the right amount of cheese and sauce, you can avoiding any liquids getting on the stone. Not that cordierite can't handle spills- but if you make pizza properly you shouldn't be getting spills all that often.


Btw, what are the screws doing in the door?  Do those screws make contact with the stone?  You aren't moving the stones in and out of the oven, right?

Oh, and no aluminum, you're pretty close to aluminum melting temps.

Those screws i had placed are to support the stone when i move it out, than i can better place the pizza on top.
The last 3 pizza's i made without a outher rim, in this oven the dought rises even better then before, but the last time it spoiled some moist.
Wont be a problem to overcome, i must make just a little rim.
My oven heats up some slow, i measured it last time, it took 20 minutes to reach 440 celsius, a other 10 minutes to heat up the stone.
The air temperature in the oven is about 350 when i bake the pizza, it took about 3,5 minutes.
The melting point of aluminium is 650 celsius by the way, i looked into that in choice of materials.

Thanks for your advice by the way for the stones.
I can order here also some stones, like these.
The round one is made from soapstone, and cost 50 euro.
The square one costs 70 euro, but this one looks like that cordierite you spoke of, only because it looks brown i believe.
I can order here also a big green EGG pizza stone for also 50, that one looks also like cordierite
Witch one to order ? what will hold best under these baking temperatures
 

[scott123]

Albert, the price tags on those stones might be a bit high, but it doesn't make them quality stones.

The first stone in the photo isn't soapstone, nor do I think it's cordierite.  It will last you about as long as the other stones you've been using (not long).

If you can get soapstone... it's taken me some time to get to this point, but I would advise against it.  Soapstone has a very long history in oven use and, although, for the longest time, I was under the assumption that it was thermally indestructible, being a natural product, there's always the chance for flaws, and, where you have flaws, you have thermal weakness.  So soapstone, for me, is too much of a gamble, especially in an oven environment as stressful as yours.

The second stone certainly looks like cordierite, but there's absolutely no guarantee that it is, and, as I said before, cordierite is not ideal.  You want a step up from cordierite- cordierite-mullite or mullite.  Holland has to have potters.  Where you have potters, you have ceramic suppliers/kiln shelf resources.  This is where you want to go. Stop looking online and start looking in the phone book.

Also, I don't think this is contributing to breakage, but you definitely want to avoid moving the hot stone.  Leave the stone where it is and launch the uncooked pizza from a floured peel.

[The Dub Oracle]

Albert, the price tags on those stones might be a bit high, but it doesn't make them quality stones.

The first stone in the photo isn't soapstone, nor do I think it's cordierite.  It will last you about as long as the other stones you've been using (not long).

If you can get soapstone... it's taken me some time to get to this point, but I would advise against it.  Soapstone has a very long history in oven use and, although, for the longest time, I was under the assumption that it was thermally indestructible, being a natural product, there's always the chance for flaws, and, where you have flaws, you have thermal weakness.  So soapstone, for me, is too much of a gamble, especially in an oven environment as stressful as yours.

The second stone certainly looks like cordierite, but there's absolutely no guarantee that it is, and, as I said before, cordierite is not ideal.  You want a step up from cordierite- cordierite-mullite or mullite.  Holland has to have potters.  Where you have potters, you have ceramic suppliers/kiln shelf resources.  This is where you want to go. Stop looking online and start looking in the phone book.

Also, I don't think this is contributing to breakage, but you definitely want to avoid moving the hot stone.  Leave the stone where it is and launch the uncooked pizza from a floured peel.

The stone always broke during baking, not when it what out and i placed the pizza.

I looked somewhat on the internet about this mullite, but then i must go to a oven maker or company that has tiles from this material if understand you clearly.

You said that my oven temperatures where some extreme, but it seems normal to me.
I dont know how most people bake their pizza here on the forum, but when you have a oven that reaches 450 celsius you can bake them also in 3.5 minutes, its called napoli style i believe.
On you tube i saw a movie from napels of a baker that says they bake their pizza in 2 minutes or less.
The bigger the pizza the longer it will take to bake, but i bake them all under 4 minutes.
This is also a smal oven that will reaches quicker the original air temperature when you open the door and place the pizza.
The stone could be more under stress because of that.

But i know enough, at first i will spend no more money on it.
I repaired my first broken stone with some wire and try that for now.
When it brakes again and again, i repair a other stone till nothing more is left from these crap stones.
I wonder if a cordierite will brake or not, in anyway if i must buy a other stone i go for a cordierite-mullite one.
Mullite makes porcelain strong and more heat adaptive i saw on wiki, it makes sense.