Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 524233 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1120 on: March 26, 2015, 09:47:48 PM »
Thanks, Peter. Here's my recipe:

100% KA Bread Flour (906g)
2.5% Hodgson Mills VWG (22.65g)
63% Water (571g)
.25% IDY (2.27g)
1.75% salt (15.87g)
1% oil (9.07g)

The percentage of VWG was calculated in a different thread (I think)...although at this point I'm not 100% sure.

There better be a next time! We didn't spend thousands of dollars to build a WFO for me to buy pre-made pizza dough.  :o

Thanks so much.
pfhlad0,

There are a couple of ways to handle this: The way that I would do it, and the way that you did it. I will start with the way I would do it.

Let us assume that the original recipe calls for 906g of KABF and you want to use a blend of the KABF and the Hodgson Mill VWG so that the protein content of the blend (906g) is 14%. which is roughly the protein content of the blend you used. Using the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ with the two ingredients selected in the two pull-down menus (A and B) and using 906 in the Mass box and 14 in the % box, the 906g becomes 884.15g KABF and 21.85g Hodgson Mill VWG. The sum of these two numbers is 906g. Now, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html with a Dough Weight of 1503.96g, we end up with the following dough formulation:

KABF/VWG Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166%):
906 g  |  31.96 oz | 2 lbs
570.78 g  |  20.13 oz | 1.26 lbs
2.27 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
15.86 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.84 tsp | 0.95 tbsp
9.06 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.01 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
1503.96 g | 53.05 oz | 3.32 lbs | TF = N/A
*The KABF/VWG Flour Blend comprises 884.15g of KABF and 21.85g of Hodgson Mill VWG, for a total of 906g
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Using your method, where you just added VWG (22.65g) to the original amount of KABF (906g), it becomes necessary to increase the rest of the ingredients in relation to the total of the two ingredients, that is, 928.65g. Using the expanded dough calculating tool again, and doing a bunch of calculations and tweaking the baker's percents, we get the following dough formulation:
KABF (100%):
Water (64.5741%):
IDY (0.2557%):
Salt (1.794%):
Olive Oil (1.026%):
Hodgson Mill Vital Wheat Gluten (2.5%):
Total (170.1498%):
906 g  |  31.96 oz | 2 lbs
585.04 g  |  20.64 oz | 1.29 lbs
2.32 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
16.25 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.91 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
9.3 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.07 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
22.65 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 7.56 tsp | 2.52 tbsp
1541.56 g | 54.38 oz | 3.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation; the volume measurements for the VWG were adjusted to relate to the Hodgson Mill brand of VWG

As you can see, the math gets quite tricky, and it took me a long time to tweak all of the percents as you can see from all of the decimal places I had to use. You will also note that the amount of dough the way you did it is more than the way I did it. That means that when you make the dough, you should scale it to the dough ball weight you want to use. You will also see that my suggestion to increase the hydration by about 1.5-2% was pretty close. Note also the increases in the amounts of IDY, salt and oil.

I think you can now see why using the method I used and using the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator is a far easier and more accurate way of doing things. The same methodology can, and ideally should, be used with other flour blends.

Peter

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1121 on: March 27, 2015, 07:25:37 AM »
Oh my goodness, thank you so much. That was a lot of work and I really appreciate the time you spent on it.

Obviously, there's nothing I can do about the batch that's in the fridge now, but hopefully it's not too far off and it will be fine. I will definitely use your method the next time I try this.

Thanks again so much. You are an invaluable resource and a very nice guy.  :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1122 on: March 27, 2015, 08:38:03 AM »
Oh my goodness, thank you so much. That was a lot of work and I really appreciate the time you spent on it.

Obviously, there's nothing I can do about the batch that's in the fridge now, but hopefully it's not too far off and it will be fine. I will definitely use your method the next time I try this.

Thanks again so much. You are an invaluable resource and a very nice guy.  :)
pfhlad0,

I'm glad to help.

You can see how Tom Lehmann addresses the matter of adding VWG to a given flour, at his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/dough-protein.4343/#post-23630. Tom's advice is usually for professionals, and often his advice on adding VWG to a flour is for professionals who are not in the U.S. and whose flours are not as high in protein as our flours in the U.S. Tom usually does not address what to do with the rest of the ingredients in the dough recipe when vital wheat gluten is added to an existing flour although he discusses how to increase the hydration of the recipe. Presumably, the answer is that the changes in the amounts of the other ingredients such as salt, oil, yeast, etc., are minor. If you compare the two formulations I gave you, you will see that the differences in the ingredients other than the water are slight, almost not measurable. But, if I can get more precision, I am all for that. And using the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator and the methodology I discussed gives me that option. In that respect, we have an advantage over professionals who do not use tools like the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator. It was a member of the forum (by the name of November), a nonprofessional, who designed that tool.

Peter

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1123 on: March 27, 2015, 03:48:42 PM »
Well, I am very grateful for everyone on this board. Especially those with the extensive knowledge...like you.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1124 on: March 28, 2015, 10:14:45 AM »
Also, how do tell if dough is over or under mixed?
pfhlad0,

I see that I forgot to answer your question as posed above.

In my experience, there is no single or best or right answer to your question. There are a lot of factors involved, including the type of flour being used, the type of dough and pizza being made, and the type of equipment used to mix and knead the dough. Often people will marvel at how well a professional's dough will handle and ask themselves why their dough doesn't handles as nicely as the doughs made by professionals. A good part of the answer is that professionals use commercial mixers. In a home setting, it is hard to replicate a dough made using commercial equipment. Our members might use a standard home mixer, but they might also use a food processor or a bread maker. And some will knead the dough by hand, and they might use one or more series of stretch and folds, which works especially well with high hydration doughs, with rest periods in between the stretch and folds. And some might use autolyse or similar rest periods. Stretch and folds and autolyse come out of the bread making art, not out of pizza making.

As a general rule of thumb, many of our members will knead the dough for a period of time related to the expected period of fermentation. For example, if the dough is to ferment for a few days in the refrigerator, they might underknead the dough and let biochemical gluten development do most of the heavy lifting. Conversely, if the fermentation period is to be short, they might knead the dough more at the outset. The type of flour used might also dictate how much mixing and kneading of the dough one should do.

As you might expect, Tom Lehmann has often spoken on this subject. For example, here is a quote from one of his posts:

You want to mix the dough just enough so that when you take an egg size piece of dough, and form it into a ball, then holding it in two hands, with the thumbs together (pointing away from you), and on top of the dough piece, gently pull the thumbs apart. The dough skin should not tear. If it tears, you should mix the dough a little longer. The dough will have a decidedly satiny appearance. Prior to the satiny appearance the dough will have more of a curdled appearance. Do not stretch the dough out between the fingers to form a gluten film. This test for development is for bread and roll doughs, not pizza. Pizza dough is not fully developed at the mixer, instead, it receives most of its development through biochemical gluten development (fermentation). After the dough has been in the cooler for about 24 hours, you should be able to stretch the dough in your fingers and form a very thin, translucent gluten film.

The above quote is in respect of a commercial application although it still applies to a home environment. The video below shows how Tom tests the dough in a commercial setting.

You might also find this post of interest: Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27536.msg279957#msg279957.

With experience, most members will learn when a dough is ready by touch and feel. But it is important to keep in mind that that touch and feel can be different for different types of pizza dough.



Peter


Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1125 on: Yesterday at 09:55:55 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Peter.

I finally got around to cooking the pizzas and I have to say that it was by far the best we've ever made. I used the recipe in my previous post (KABF, VWG, 63% hydration) and the Prima Gusto whole milk mozzarella cheese from GFS. I'm sure both contributed to the success of the pizza. Previous bakes produced cheese that was too brown and crust bottoms that had no leoparding. This time I had beautifully melted cheese with a chewy crust and brown bottom. If every attempt turned out this well, I'd be a happy camper.

That all being said, I do have a question for you. I made the dough with the intent if a 2-day cold ferment. Unfortunately, I didn't get to bake it until the 3rd day. What changes occurred between the 2nd and 3rd day? I ask because when I make it the next time, I don't know if I should repeat my successful outcome and ferment for 3 days, or go back to the original recipe of 2 days. Not sure it had anything to do with the ferment time, but my only "complaint" would have been that the outer crust/rim didn't puff up as much as I would have liked. Is it possible that the yeast activated too much in the fridge and there wasn't much left when it came time to bake? If not, any tips in getting a puffier rim?

Again, if I changed nothing I'd be happy to serve this pizza to all of my guests. Being the perfectionist thst I am, however, I'd love to tweak it just a bit more to get the rim perfect.

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1126 on: Yesterday at 10:00:58 PM »
I should mention that the first picture shows a nice, holey, puffy rim. Not all of the rims were that nice. Also, I used .25% IDY in case you need that to answer my question about 2-day vs 3-day ferment.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1127 on: Today at 09:56:01 AM »
That all being said, I do have a question for you. I made the dough with the intent if a 2-day cold ferment. Unfortunately, I didn't get to bake it until the 3rd day. What changes occurred between the 2nd and 3rd day? I ask because when I make it the next time, I don't know if I should repeat my successful outcome and ferment for 3 days, or go back to the original recipe of 2 days. Not sure it had anything to do with the ferment time, but my only "complaint" would have been that the outer crust/rim didn't puff up as much as I would have liked. Is it possible that the yeast activated too much in the fridge and there wasn't much left when it came time to bake? If not, any tips in getting a puffier rim?
pfhlad0,

To answer your question about the two days versus three days of cold fermentation, the dough at three days had more fermentation and, therefore, more byproducts of fermentation that contributed to the final crust flavor, taste, color, aroma and texture. As you go out further on the fermentation curve, and assuming that the dough doesn't expire, you should get even more byproducts of fermentation and an even better finished crust. Most people tend to stay on the two or three days of cold fermentation for the Lehmann NY style, but I have pushed the envelope out to over twenty days of cold fermentation using a dough formulation such as you used. For example, see Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370. In that case, I also used 0.25% IDY and no sugar, and the dough was used after about 10+ days. The hydration was higher than you used since I had sifted the flour and I used KASL, but your value would have been close to 65% with the KABF had you increased the water content because of the use of the VWG. But here is the summary of the results described in Reply 23:

The finished pizza exhibited reasonable oven spring and the crust had a few large bubbles and a profusion of very small bubbles at the rim. I had not expected the large bubbles inasmuch as the dough had not risen much during its entire time of fermentation. The texture of the crumb was soft and chewy and bore a resemblance to crusts that I have made before using natural preferments. The crust had normal coloration and, as with my more recent efforts, was noticeably sweet. This continues to amaze me since I added no sugar to the dough. After 10 days, I would have expected almost no crust coloration and low, almost undetectable residual sugar levels (on the palate). These characteristics, along with the normal byproducts of fermentation, helped contribute to a finished crust that I found to be very flavorful.

I cite the above example to demonstrate how difficult it can be to design specific attributes into your pizzas. The pizza I described above seemed to defy all of the rules. But if I were to make a suggestion to you about getting a larger rim, rather than trying to adjust the baker's percents I would suggest using a bit more dough and pushing it out toward the rim to enlarge it when you open up the dough ball to form a skin. If you also keep the sauce, cheese(s) away from the rim area a reasonable distance, that might also promote a larger rim. Actually, the rims of classic NY style pizzas do not have large rims. When I volunteered to start this thread many years ago, I did not know that. It took a few trips to NYC for me to learn that, although some members did point out to me before then that some of my rims were too large. But to be honest, I personally like a somewhat larger rim, as do other members on the forum for the NY style.

In your case, to be on the safe side you might also add a bit of sugar to your dough if you want to go out beyond two days of cold fermentation. I would try 1-2%, just as Tom Lehmann usually advises. You might also increase the hydration about a percent or two, as I previously discussed, if you continue to use the VWG with the KABF. Unless it is on the cool side where you live, I would stick with the 0.25% IDY.

You should just continue to play around with the recipe and get more experience and practice using it but keeping changes minimal so that you can see the effects of the changes. Eventually, you you find the sweet spot.

Peter

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1128 on: Today at 10:42:41 AM »
Thanks, Peter. I know that I can do a better job to manually creating a rim when I stretch the dough -- I typically find myself using my fingers all the way to the end of the rim. I will also try using less sauce on the outer edge. I think both of those will help. BTW, I did add 1% sugar to my dough knowing that I was going to cold ferment for 2 days.

Reading back through my posts, I noticed something odd in post #1120. You gave your formulation based on my ingredients, and then you calculated "my" formulation based on the same ingredients.  Your formulation shows a 63% hydration even with the VWG (although you did reduce the amount of KABF to account for the VWG). Is this correct? Or, was that the "base" recipe and then you would add 1-2% additional water to account for the VWG?

I know this isn't an exact science and that you have to do a lot by "look and feel", but being a newbie to pizza making it really helps to have some concrete numbers to go by.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1129 on: Today at 12:32:24 PM »
Reading back through my posts, I noticed something odd in post #1120. You gave your formulation based on my ingredients, and then you calculated "my" formulation based on the same ingredients.  Your formulation shows a 63% hydration even with the VWG (although you did reduce the amount of KABF to account for the VWG). Is this correct? Or, was that the "base" recipe and then you would add 1-2% additional water to account for the VWG?
pfhlad0.

Whenever I want to use a blend of flours to simulate a higher protein flour from the standpoint of protein content and absorption value, I use the rated absorption value of the flour I am trying to simulate and I use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to tell me how to apportion the base flour and the VWG in the blend. For example, if I want to simulate the KASL flour, which has a protein value of 14.2%, I know that the rated absorption value of that flour is 63%. So I use 63% as the hydration value in my modified recipe. To know how much KABF and VWG to use in the modified recipe, I rely on the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator. Remember, however, that the sum of the KABF and VWG have to equal the amount of the KASL in the original recipe.

Another thing I do is to adjust the formula hydration when I add oil to an existing recipe. I do this because oil also has a wetting effect on the flour even though it does so through a different mechanism than water. So, for example, if I added some oil to a recipe that didn't previously use any oil, I adjust the formula hydration of the original recipe so that the sum of the hydration and oil in the modified recipe is the same as the original recipe. So, for example, if I used 63% hydration in the original recipe and I want to now add 2% oil, I would use 61% hydration in the modified recipe (so that 61% + 2% = 63%).

Peter


Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1130 on: Today at 12:43:24 PM »
I understand what you're saying, Peter, but I'm still unclear as to why your recipe used 63% water and the recipe you calculated based on my original measurements used 64.5% water. They both used the same ingredients.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1131 on: Today at 01:07:47 PM »
I understand what you're saying, Peter, but I'm still unclear as to why your recipe used 63% water and the recipe you calculated based on my original measurements used 64.5% water. They both used the same ingredients.
pfhlad0,

Now I see your confusion.

The reason is that in the way I did it for the first formulation I showed in Reply 1120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg372531#msg372531, the combined weight of the KABF and the VWG is 906 grams. In the way you did it, which is reflected in the second formulation I posted, the combined weight of the KABF and VWG is 906 + 22.65 = 938.85 grams. Your blend needs more water than mine because your blend weighs more than mine. 

Peter

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1132 on: Today at 01:50:42 PM »
Oh, now I get it.  :)

So based on everything you've taught me, if I wanted to adjust my numbers from a 5-ball batch to an 8-ball batch, I would go from this:

King Arthur Bread Flour: 884.15g
Hodgson Mill VWG (2.5%): 21.85g
Water (63%): 570.78g
IDY (0.25%): 2.27g
Salt (1.75%): 15.86g
Olive Oil (1%): 9.06g
Sugar (1%): 9.06g
Total (166%): 1513.03g
Single Ball: 302.61g

to this:

King Arthur Bread Flour: 1414.64g
Hodgson Mill VWG (2.5%): 34.96g
Water (63%): 913.25g
IDY (0.25%): 3.62g
Salt (1.75%): 25.37g
Olive Oil (1%): 14.5g
Sugar (1%): 14.5g
Total (166%): 2420.85g
Single Ball: 302.61g

I know I could calculate any size recipe, but if I have these two recipe sizes, I can double, triple, combine, etc. to get the measurements I need.

If I really wanted to be a "pizza psycho" as my daughter calls me, I could calculate it per-ball and make the exact number of balls I need for each dinner party I'm having. My best guess would be:

King Arthur Bread Flour: 176.83g
Hodgson Mill VWG (2.5%): 4.37g
Water (63%): 114.16g
IDY (0.25%): 0.45g
Salt (1.75%): 3.17g
Olive Oil (1%): 1.81g
Sugar (1%): 1.81g
Total (166%): 302.61g
Single Ball: 302.61g

I think I'm starting to scare myself.  :P

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1133 on: Today at 02:08:51 PM »
pfhlad0,

Now you've got it ;D.

However, one potential negative is that if someone tries to use your numbers in the expanded dough calculating tool, for example, for a single dough ball, this is what they will get:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (1%):
Vital Wheat Gluten (2.5%):
Total (169.5%):
178.53 g  |  6.3 oz | 0.39 lbs
112.47 g  |  3.97 oz | 0.25 lbs
0.45 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
1.79 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.79 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
4.46 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
302.61 g | 10.67 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A

The reason for the difference is that all of the ingredients in the formulation are calculated by the expanded dough calculating tool with respect to the flour only, not the flour and the VWG. As discussed, the solution is to treat blends like I discussed using both the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator and the expanded dough calculating tool.

Peter


Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1134 on: Today at 07:35:16 PM »
Understood. That's why I took the "(100%)" off of the flour line. I guess as long as my numbers are correct I won't stress about it anymore.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of your help. Your thorough and speedy responses were invaluable to me.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1135 on: Today at 07:51:49 PM »
I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of your help. Your thorough and speedy responses were invaluable to me.
pfhlad0,

Glad to help. I wish you continued success.

The Lehmann recipe is a good one to cut your teeth on and once you have mastered it, the experience will be helpful to either improve it or move on to another style. There may be a few bumps in the road but that is quite normal and part of the learning experience. And don't be in too much of a hurry to try all kinds of fancy stuff. Master the basics first and then add new things gradually as your knowledge base grows and you understand what you are doing.

Peter


 

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