Author Topic: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)  (Read 17046 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2011, 11:27:07 AM »
After browsing some info,I did not read all of it,does anyone know the Lombardi's dough recipe or was that still kept a secret by Evelyn?Just curious,If it was posted,I havent gotten that far yet.

Bill,

Is there a particular version of a Lombardi's dough recipe that you are after? There was the original one before mixers and coolers and dry forms of yeast (ADY and IDY) were invented (but coal-fired ovens were in use), and then there is one in Evelyne's 1984 book (for the ordinary home pizza maker), and there is one that Evelyne modified from her book for our purposes on the forum, and there is the one she came up with for her own purposes (using a combination of room temperature and cold fermentation), and then there is the one Lombardi's has used in more modern times. Evelyne has even speculated that Lombardi's may be using par-baked crusts in order to meet the high volume with only one oven. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation evolved out of the Lombardi's dough but modified to use the straight-dough method and a day or more of cold fermentation, with a deck oven for baking. I believe that one might be able to piece together most of the Lombardi's dough recipes but for the one currently used, although even then one might be able to come reasonably close.

Peter


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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2011, 11:36:34 AM »
Peter, you really know how to spin a tale and keep things even more interesting here. 

Well, I don't exactly mean spin a tale...but these concentrated specific link heavy threads are a fascinating insight to the inner workings of  pizza fanatics. 

Reesa,

I have Evelyne's book and there is much more on the evolution of the NY style in the posts and threads I referenced above than in her book. Evelyne also wrote one or more articles on the evolution of the NY style for Pizza Today but Pizza Today re-did their website a few years ago and since then I have not been able to locate articles that were available before the re-work. Even the archive lookback sites can't find the articles. Also, most of such articles are copyrighted and can't be reproduced here without permission.

Peter

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2011, 12:06:59 PM »
Peter,

I was just curious as to what they did in the old days.Not after a particular kind,just like reading about all this.

Thanks!



-Bill

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2011, 02:07:59 PM »
Peter, thanks for posting those links.

There is indeed much more information there about pizza in New York than there is in TPB. I just printed all of those posts and am going through them in detail.

I also now have 125 articles I have printed, predominately from the NY Times, but a couple from the New Yorker as well, starting as far back as pizza goes in those archives (at this point most of them from around the WWII years). I have used up my monthly allotment of NY Times archive views for this month (allowed 100 per month), but will resume next month. Some interesting articles for sure, and Evelyne's posts help give credence to many of them. I may eventually make a very informal, unofficial, history of NYC pizza and post it here, being sure to cite resources, articles, etc (no copying of articles in their entirety).

What is intriguing is that Sloman's various material (TPB and posts here) shows that Lombardi's originally utilized the cheese first, then sauce, romano and olive oil sequencing that is used at Totonno's as well. We know that Anthony "Totonno" Pero of Totonno's and John Sasso of John's worked at Lombardi's before opening their own shops. However, Evelyne also mentions that Gennaro Lombardi sponsored other immigrants for 2-3 years who eventually went on to open their own shops elsewhere (most of such sponsoring was apparently done before the immigration quota system took effect in the 1920's).

The NY Times first mention of pizza was in 1944 and the pizzeria mentioned was not Lombardi's, but Luigino's Pizzeria alla Napoletana. The same sequencing used at Lombardi's is mentioned in the article...mootz first, then sauce, romano and olive oil. One has to wonder if Luigino learned this sequencing through watching pizzas being made at Lombardi's and/or Totonno's while visiting those shops or if he in fact was sponsored by and worked for Lombardi at one time?

While the 1944 NY Times article does not say how long Luigino's had been opened at that point, a later 1966 NY Times article speculated that Luigino's "may be the oldest established pizza house in the city", which hints that it may have opened much earlier than 1944?

It would be interesting to know if Luigino Milone of Luigino's did in fact work at Lombardi's, as we would have yet another branch from the Lombardi's tree which we knew about (even though Luigino's is now closed). --K
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 02:22:19 PM by pizzablogger »
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2011, 02:31:18 PM »
I was just curious as to what they did in the old days.Not after a particular kind,just like reading about all this.

Bill,

From what Evelyne has written, I tried to reconstruct what might have been the Lombardi's dough recipe as originally constituted and practiced. If I am not 100% correct, I believe that I am fairly close.

The original Lombardi's dough as made in 1905 comprised only flour, water, yeast and salt. No sugar or oil were used. The flour was a bleached, bromated, malted bread flour with a protein content of around 12-13%. Since ADY and IDY did not exist at that time (they had not yet been invented), the yeast was fresh yeast. The hydration was quite high, as much as 65%. The salt, at around 1%, was on the low side by today's standards. Since commercial mixers and coolers did not exist at that time, at least in the pizza trade, the dough was made entirely by hand and kneaded on a table. This was usually done early in the morning. After fermentation, at room temperature (commercial refrigerators with compressors and refrigerants came later), the dough was divided and placed in wooden boxes pending use to fill orders. The amount of yeast was determined to fit the window within which the dough balls would be used. There were no scales to weigh things. Everything was done using volume measurements and "feel", based mainly on experience. The dough balls were formed into skins by working on the hands and the knuckles. Typically, the skins were not tossed in the air. That would have been very difficult with a hand made bread flour dough at a hydration of around 65%.

As you will see from Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42449.html#msg42449 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42502.html#msg42502, I devoted a lot of time and effort trying to come up with thickness factors for the Lombardi and other elite pizza doughs, based on information that Evelyne provided. The information that Evelyne provided was necessarily inexact inasmuch as no one at the time weighed anything. But, based on that information, I would say that a good starting point for a thickness factor for the original Lombardi's dough would be around 0.08. I don't know what size pizza Lombardi's originally made, but I believe the current size is 16". With modest effort on your part, and using one of the dough calculating tools, I think that you should be able to come up with a dough formulation that reflects what was used back in 1905, but updated to reflect current ingredients. As you may know, Lombardi's closed in 1984 (or so I read) and reopened in 1996. By that time, the Lombardi's dough formulation and dough preparation and management methods had changed. The flour used was different and commercial mixers and refrigeration were in use.

Of course, having an updated version of the original Lombardi's dough recipe using modern flours and access to modern equipment is one thing. The missing part is the coal-fired oven. Yet, you might still be able to make a decent pizza using your home oven. Those with modified ovens or using metal baking plates or better pizza stones, and those with LBE's and wood-fired ovens, might be able to get even better results approachiing but not recreating the pizzas made using a coal-fired oven.

Peter


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2011, 02:51:50 PM »
As you may know, Lombardi's closed in 1984 (or so I read) and reopened in 1996.
Peter

This is true, and is even posted on the Lombardi's website.

However, according to Slomon, apparently Lombardi's actually closed down twice. The original location closed in the 1970's and re-opened a short time later as a more serious (non-pizza) Italian restaurant, the oven by this point being damaged from vibrations of the subway beneath 53 1/2 Spring Street (4 & 6 Trains) to the point of being unusable and it was shut-up.

Then it closed again in 1984 before the space was re-located up the street in 1996 in an old bakery with a coal-oven on site. --K
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2011, 03:56:22 PM »
One of the interesting sidenotes that came up from my reading of Evelyne's posts is the pressure that publishers can put on authors in terms of what goes into a book. For example, the NY dough recipe in Evelyne's book at page 224 calls for 1 level teaspoon of ADY. Yet, for our members, she suggested 1/8-1/4 teaspoon of IDY. Apparently, the higher amount was to be sure that home pizza makers would succeed with the recipe and to speed up things and not have to wait a day or more to make a pizza, which was a matter of concern to the publisher. At one point, Evelyne talked about re-doing a revised expanded version of her original book or a completely new one (to which Evelyne alluded to in one of her posts). I detected great enthusiasm on Evelyne's part. But apparently that was not something that interested prospective publishers, as Evelyne noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42171.html#msg42171. I sometimes wonder how many other things are changed in books that turn something that is good or right into something that is less good or right solely to please a publisher who may know next to nothing about the subject in question.

Peter

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2011, 04:35:30 PM »
Peter,wow I was not expecting you to go to all that trouble to post anything more about the Lombardi dough,but many Thanks for doing so.

 :)

I have been making a lehmanns dough recently with just (KABF and sometimes Bouncer HG) Flour,water,yeast and salt.I'm experimenting between 63-65% at times.So far,they have been the best doughs I ever made.

They smell so good the next day after a fridge then room rise,and they taste incredible when cooked.Much better than the doughs I made with oil and sugar.

Anyway back to the topic,reading about the old days,makes me want to try even more simple dough recipes or tweak them around some more at home.

They really knew what they were doing back then.I love reading about the History and all the great comments.
 :)






« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:44:48 PM by chickenparm »
-Bill

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2011, 05:21:46 PM »
This article says that in NY the first mention of pizza was in 1903 from the New York Tribune.  “Pizza Pomidore”

http://firstmention.com/pizza.aspx

Another blog that mentions  “pomidore pizza” or “tomato pizza” before 1905  http://restaurant-ingthroughhistory.com/2009/02/09/basic-fare-pizza/

The comments can be seen at the end of the article.

Norma
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2011, 05:48:57 PM »
Thanks for the links Norma. Interesting!  :D

In the first link there is a mention of, "And no, it wasn't from Ray's Pizzeria (the real one, on Seventh Avenue)"

I'm assuming they are referring to the Famous Original Ray's Pizza on 7th Avenue in the Theater District, which was opened in 1964....or five years after Ray's Pizza opened on Prince Street in 1959 (the actual first "Ray's" incarnation). Although many are perhaps most familiar with Famous Ray's (11th & 6th in Greenwich Village).

The Ray's confusion is always humoring to see. --K
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2011, 07:31:40 PM »
Kelly and anyone else that might be interested,

I don’t know if you ever saw this article or not, but I will post it.

http://nymag.com/restaurants/cheapeats/2009/57894/


Norma
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2011, 08:25:08 PM »
In the first link there is a mention of, "And no, it wasn't from Ray's Pizzeria (the real one, on Seventh Avenue)"

I'm assuming they are referring to the Famous Original Ray's Pizza on 7th Avenue in the Theater District, which was opened in 1964....or five years after Ray's Pizza opened on Prince Street in 1959 (the actual first "Ray's" incarnation). Although many are perhaps most familiar with Famous Ray's (11th & 6th in Greenwich Village).

The Ray's confusion is always humoring to see.

Kelly,

There was an article recently at the New York Times, at http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/25/nyregion/in-a-pizza-war-it-s-3-rays-against-the-rest.html?scp=2&sq=Ray's%20pizza&st=cse, that touches on the question of who Ray is/was. Several years ago, after reseaching how many pizzerias there were in NYC with the name "Ray" in them, I also reported on a couple of explanations of who "Ray" was, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,640.msg5841.html#msg5841. The explanation in the NYT article seems to be essentially the same as the FoodNetwork came up with through its research. (For those who are interested, Peter Reinhart's explanation is at pages 38-39 of his book American Pie.)

For fun today, I decided to update my earlier lists of the different Ray's in NYC, using the NYC yellow pages. If my eyeballs didn't deceive me with all of the similar names, here is the updated list (with the number of stores in parentheses):

Famous Original Ray's Pizza (16)
Ray Bari Pizza (10)
Ray's Pizza (7)
Harlem Rays Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Ray's Pizza
Famous Ray's Pizza (3)
Original Ray's Pizza & Restaurant (2)
World Famous Ray's Pizza (2)
Original Ray's Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Original Ray's Pizza & Restaurant
Ray's Real Pizza (1)
New York Ray's Pizza (1)
Ray Pizza Inc (1)--this may be a holding company
Ray's Pizza Bagel Cafe (1)
Bagel Cafe Rays Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Ray's Pizza Bagel Cafe
Ray Bono Pizza (1)
Not Rays Pizza (1)

The number of pizzerias in the above list is 49. In 2004, there were 47 Ray's. In 2008, when I last updated the list, there were 50-52 Ray's on the list. It doesn't look like they are "evolving" all that much. However, it should be noted that there are several Ray's in NJ and apparently in several other states. I remember eating at one (a franchise) in Scottsdale, AZ several years ago.

Peter






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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2011, 08:53:35 PM »
Kelly and Peter,

Was there a big lawsuit or legal battle over the Ray name for a while? I kept thinking I seen that on TV a while back but was not 100% sure.

Sounded like in the end,just the Lawyers got Rich,and they came to an agreement of some kind?

Norma,thanks for the link.I laughed when I read this:
2006: Domino’s introduces “Brooklyn style” pizza; incurs wrath of Brooklynites.
 :-D
-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2011, 01:37:45 PM »
I am not sure how to verify this article to see if it is true or not, but in this article it tells about how the first big pizzerias in NY had to use mozzarella supplied by the mob and why the pizzerias weren’t allowed to sell slices of pizza.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroad/2011/04/a_detail_about.php

Another article with a timeline on the left of the article about pizza and pictures of Lombardi’s Pizzeria on right. http://www.interestingamerica.com/2011-01-12_Lombardi_Pizza_NYC_by_C_Doherty.html

I wonder what kind of mozzarella was used on the first pizzas in NY, since I don’t think they had Bufala Mozzarella all those years ago in NY.  I did see on the web that Giuseppe Pollio did start making mozzarella at Coney Island, Brooklyn in 1899, under the name Pollio Dairy Company, then it became Polly-O, now owned by Kraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polly-O
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/08/nyregion/q-a-mark-pettie-keeping-alive-100-years-of-cheese-making.html

Norma
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 01:40:34 PM by norma427 »
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2011, 09:14:01 AM »
Norma, the mozzarella used on the first pizzas in NYC was fior-di-latte (fresh mozzarella), made by local persons in the neighborhood, if not by the pizzeria itself. In fact, Slomon does mention that when fresh mozzarella wasn't available from the local purveyor of Lombardi's, they had to obtain curd and make it fresh themselves.

I have a couple of newspaper articles from the 40s which also cite fresh mozzarella being used on pizzas at the time.

Keep in mind there were no distribution networks for pizza stores back then, as pizza didn't really become more widespread, in fact even known by much of the general public, until the late 40s and 50s.

The first instance of mozzarella di bufala being used that I know about was by Domenico DeMarco at DiFara pizza, which opened up in 1964 and from all accounts used bufala from the start.

Looking forward to reading your article links Norma, thanks --K
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 09:49:32 AM by pizzablogger »
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2011, 11:15:04 AM »
Norma, the mozzarella used on the first pizzas in NYC was fior-di-latte (fresh mozzarella), made by local persons in the neighborhood, if not by the pizzeria itself. In fact, Slomon does mention that when fresh mozzarella wasn't available from the local purveyor of Lombardi's, they had to obtain curd and make it fresh themselves.

I have a couple of newspaper articles from the 40s which also cite fresh mozzarella being used on pizzas at the time.

Keep in mind there were no distribution networks for pizza stores back then, as pizza didn't really become more widespread, in fact even known by much of the general public, until the late 40s and 50s.

The first instance of mozzarella di bufala being used that I know about was by Domenico DeMarco at DiFara pizza, which opened up in 1964 and from all accounts used bufala from the start.

Looking forward to reading your article links Norma, thanks --K

Kelly,

Thanks for the information about the cheese.  :) I find any kind of history interesting, and especially anything about pizza, or what they might have done years ago in NY.  I did contact the Museum of Food in NY to see if they have any other information about pizzas years ago in NY, but they emailed me back that they didn’t have any of that information. 

Will be looking forward to what you find and post, and also what any other members finds and posts.  I really think this thread is interesting.

I knew no distribution networks were available back in the first days of pizza in the US.  Would be interested in seeing your newspaper articles if you can post them.

There are pictures on Getty images, that some of them go back years ago, but not to the beginning.  I don’t know if I link those images if that will infringe on copyrights or not.

Norma
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2011, 06:05:28 PM »
Kelly,

I don’t know if you already found out any of this information or not, or if others might be interested, but here are some more things I found.

The book 97 Orchard: by Jane Ziegelman:  An Edible History of Five Immigrant Families in One New York Tenement tells the story of how food and pizza played into the NY scene years ago.  This is a video on Book TV C-Span2 about the book. 

http://www.booktv.org/Watch/11653/97+Orchard+An+Edible+History+of+Five+Immigrant+Families+in+One+New+York+Tenement.aspx

In the book 97 Orchard: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7833009-97-orchard
It tells about how Italian peddlers hawked the cheese-and-tomato pies known as pizzarelli.  If you click on more, under the story introduction, the above sentence can be seen.

Some websites offer a look inside of some of the pages of 97 Orchard.  On the table of contents on it shows the Baldizzi Family. http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Immigrant-Families-Tenement/dp/0061288500/?tag=pizzamaking-20   It can be seen on the notes where someone might search for more information.  Some of those articles are old and might be hard to find.


On page 9 of this PDF. Document http://www.ait.org.tw/infousa/zhtw/DOCS/ijse0704.pdf
it tells about how Italians immigrants from Naples, arriving at Ellis Island, and how before too long there were living around Mulberry St. in Manhattan and were desperately trying to reproduce the food of their homeland.  From those efforts did come pizza and other Italian foods. 

Norma
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2011, 11:15:24 AM »
Kelly or anyone that might be interested,

I did contact the Library of Congress at: http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/
under, ask a librarian.  http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/  to see if I could find any articles that might have be printed in newspapers before 1905 about pizza.  I did specifically ask about the article mentioned in the New York Tribune.

This is what I wrote, and what the librarian replied from the Library of Congress.

Question History:

Patron: Do you have access to any old (1900- 1905) newspaper articles from NYC
about how Italian immigrants brought over and made the first pizzas, before any
pizza businesses were opened, or maybe where I could find information about the
first pizza business maybe by some kind of Italian posts. I am studying about
pizza in NYC and would like to find out what I can.  I do have a lot of
information and the earliest thing I can learn was from 1903 when a pomidore
pizza was made in NY.  I think that article was in the NY Tribune.

Thanks!

Librarian 2: I did find the article you mentioned from the New York Tribune.
However, I haven't found many other newspaper articles in our indexes. Here are
two though, the second of which goes into some detail:

1. Headline: What to Eat; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Morning Herald, published as The Morning Herald; Date: 12-29-1902;
Volume: 32; Issue: 363; Page: 2; Location: Lexington, Kentucky
 
2. Headline: "Hot Cakes" in North Street Toothsome Dainties, Favorites with
Neapolitan Palates, Are Pizze Cavuie And; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Boston Journal, published as Boston Sunday Journal; Date: 10-04-1903;
Issue: 522; Page: 12; Location: Boston, Massachusetts

Scans of the articles are attached.

I would suggest that you search for "pizza" in Google Books. Limit your search
to 19th century publications and you will find mentions decades before 1900.
Since books before 1923 aren't under copyright, you should typically be able to
view these books in their entirety through Google.

I hope this information is of some help. Thank you for contacting the Library of
Congress.

Thomas P Jabine
Newspaper and Current Periodical Room
Serial and Government Publications Division
Library of Congress

Explore history's first draft at Chronicling America: Historic American
Newspapers - <http://www.loc.gov/chroniclingamerica/>


This is the link I found after searching the above link.

 http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1903-12-06/ed-1/seq-35/;words=pizza?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1904&proxtext=++Pizza&y=14&x=5&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

And this is the scanned article, that I typed out from the Library of Congress.  A few of the scanned words, might not be correct, because the scan was kind of hazy.

“Hot Cakes” IN NORTH STREET

Toothsome Dainties, Favorites with Neapolitan Plates, Are Pizza Cavuie and Taraluccio--Beer, Not Wine, Therewith.

Scattered though North and Prince streets and other portions of the Italian colony where Neapolitans congregate are occasional little shops with the words “Pizze Cavule” on the windows.  The words mean simply “hot cakes” in the Neapolitan  dialect.  But only a traveler would know that the pizze are one of the famous products of Naples, eaten by rich and poor, high and low, and dutifully partaken of by every tourist as one of the features that must be “done” in order to say that one has seen Naples.  The devotion of the American race to pie is a poor thing in comparison, with that of the Neapolitans for their pizze.  It is a deeper passion  than that of Devonshire for clotted cream, or of Boston for baked beans. Every restaurant serves them, and after the play is over the theatre-goers pour into cafes to eat hot pizze.

Neapolitans in Boston say that there are few place in the city to which the famous Naples specialty has been successfully transplanted.  A visit to one these reveals a window piled so high with great round Italian cheeses that the interior is invisible.  Entering, one sees a long table, covered with brown oilcloth and bounded by long black benches.  One side of the room is lined with little private supper rooms about the size of theatre boxes, petitioned off with black wood.  Each is filled with a party of men, peacefully dining on pizze.  A bright tin bucket of beer is in the centre of the table, and passes from lip to lip without the formality of glasses.  The shop does not sell beer.  When a man gives his order he takes a bucket from a stack provided for the purpose, and goes to a neighboring bar for his beer.  By the time he gets back his order is ready, for the pizze cook quickly.

Making the Cake

In behind, two Neapolitan bakers, clothed in white are baking pizze from morning till night, and almost from night until morning.  Quantities of dough are kept prepared, made in fat rolls.  The baker takes a roll, and with a few deft slips flattens it as flat as a pancake but somewhat thicker and little larger than in ordinary pie.  Then he dobs bits of lard on its surface.  Over this he sprinkles grated cheese, from a dish which stands always full beside him.  Then he pours on cooked tomato and on top he throws a handful of oreganta, the spicy aromatic herb which is such a favorite Italian seasoning.  The cheese used is Roman, so much employed for culinary purposes.  The whole operation has not taken him more than a minute.  The he slaps it on a broad, flat, long-handled paddle, and thrusts it into the furnace.  In two minutes it is done. 

It comes to the table on a big, flat pewter plate. Ordinarily individual plates are not furnished or required,  for every true Neapolitan takes his piece of pizze, folds it over so that the crust is outside, and eat it from the hand.  The pastry seems to be a cross between bread dough and pie crust, and is not lacking in suggestions that when cold it might lie somewhat heavily upon the unaccustomed interior.  But as a whole the confections is enticing, by reason of its delectable hot-ness and crispness, and the cunning blend of spicy flavors for which it is renowned.  It is probably indigestible, but certainly no more than Welsh rarebit.

On the walls of the pizze shop are the pictures of the King and Queen and of Garibaldi, and also a placard which with elaborate politeness begs the customer to be so kind as not to be in a hurry, as patience will enable them to be better served, and also to have the goodness not to be offended if on Sunday, by reason of crowd, the are required to pay when they give their order.

A cake of this size is 10 cents, and there are smaller one for 5 cents.  In Naples the price ranges from 10 cents down to a penny for little one containing only a good-sized mouthful.  A favorite cry for them at the doors of the bakeries in Naples is “Ca’pumarola e elice”, which is dialect for “With tomatoes and anchovy,” some of them being made with anchovy there, though the fish is never added here.  Men may sometime be seen on the streets, particularly on feast days, carrying tray of the hot cakes fresh from the bakeshops, and crying “pizzelle”.  These are merely the baked dough, however, without any of the added ingredients which make the pizze so succulent a morse.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2011, 01:04:16 PM »
Norma, excellent sluething.

Great minds think alike.....I am going to go to the LOC soon for some research digging. It's not too far from where I live. Was a lot closer when I lived in DC thought.

I also have access to a couple of public libraries which have some older newspaper archives as well.

I'm not sure what I am trying to do with all of this.....the initial NY Times articles I have are mostly short, but there are some interesting tidbits which help support some of the history given in various pizza books. I guess I just find it very interesting to read and gain these echoes from the past, however faint they are.

The key with all of this information is how to distill it into a presentable form. I have started this in some fashion, but I'm not sure it will ultimately be any more meaningful than the various pizza histories already published in various pizza books. It certainly won't make anyone a better pizza maker. But then again I have always liked the history and background information for anything I am interested in. I'm not sure why it has taken me so long to dig into the newspaper archives yet. Still another 2 weeks before I can access my next 100 articles on the NY Times archives as part of my subscription (100 articles per month).

BTW Norma, good pull on the 97 Orchard Book. I have ordered it from Amazon and am awaiting delivery. Have you ever strolled down Orchard Street on a Saturday afternoon? All types of clothes, furnishings etc (non-"corporate" and totally unlike the fiasco of Broadway in SoHo & NoHo) at often very sharp prices. And if you start on the Southern end and walk North, you end up in Chinatown and Little Italy....good bite to eat after a walk. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2011, 01:33:18 PM »
Norma, the North Street article is fantastic....and further prooves the point that there is no clear answer to who or where pizza was first sold in America. I would imagine the very first places selling pizza sprang up in various Northeaster cities within a short period of time.

Thanks so much for posting that!  :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell