Author Topic: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)  (Read 34240 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2011, 08:56:54 PM »
I am not sure all of these articles or accurate. Anyone can correct it, if one or more of these articles are wrong.

This blog gives a good glimpse of Di Fara’s. 

https://homeslicepizza.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/the-mythic-difara/

This article says:

http://kitchenproject.com/history/pizza/index.htm

Pizza Only Became Popular in the US after WWII

"Pizza came to America at the end of the nineteenth century with immigrants from southern Italy. Italian immigrants built commercial bakeries and backyard ovens to produce bread they had eaten in Italy. In addition, Italian bakers used their ovens for flatbreads: northern Italians baked focaccia, while southern Italians made pizza. Initially, pizza was made by Italians for Italians, but hy the late 1930s after the Great Depression many Americans were eating pizza in Italian restaurants and pizzerias on the East and West Coasts...Over time, two basic and distinct styles of American pizza appeared. A thin-crust pizza, commonly called "East Coast" or "New York" style, is made with just a few toppings like pizza made in Naples.

http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Pizza/PizzaHistory.htm

20th Century

NOTE: For many people, especially among the Italian-American population, the first American pizzas were known as Tomato Pie. Even in the present 21st century, present-day tomato pie is most commonly found in the Northeastern United States, especially in Italian bakeries in central New York. Tomato pies are built the opposite of pizza pies - first the cheese, then the toppings, and then the sauce.

1905 - Gennaro Lombardi claims to have opened the first United States Pizzeria in New York City at 53 ½ Spring Street. Lombardo is now known as America's "Patriaca della Pizza." It wasn't until the early 1930s that he added tables and chairs and sold spaghetti as well.

1943 - Chicago-style deep-dish pizza (a pizza with a flaky crust that rises an inch or more above the plate and surrounds deep piles of toppings) was created by Ike Sewell at his bar and grill called Pizzeria Uno.

1945 - With the stationing of American soldiers in Italy during World War II (1941-1945) came a growing appreciation of pizza. When the soldiers returned from war, they brought with them a taste for pizza.

1948 - The first commercial pizza-pie mix, "Roman Pizza Mix," was produced in Worcester, Massachusetts by Frank A. Fiorello.

1950s - It wasn't until the 1950s that Americans really started noticing pizza. Celebrities of Italian origin, such as Jerry Colonna, Frank Sinatra, Jimmy Durante, and baseball star Joe DiMaggio all devoured pizzas. It is also said that the line from the song by famous singer, Dean Martin; "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that amore" set America singing and eating pizzas.

1957 - Frozen pizzas were introduced and found in local grocery stores. The first was marketed by the Celentano Brothers. Pizza soon became the most popular of all frozen food.

Another article about NY style pizza and time lines, if you go down on page.

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-Welcoming-You-To-Kik-Culinary-Corner-And-History-Of-Some/866541

Norma


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2011, 10:06:41 PM »
I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims.  Plain and simple.  The two coal oven pizzerias here(one has a firedeck the other has a $100,000 custom build oven from some guy out east) operate their ovens at under 600F.  Both claim ridiculous temperatures, one claiming 1200F.  One of the them gets mention in national media and rankings from time to time and claim to have been trained in New Haven(can't remember which pizzeria).

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim.  Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 

As for burning coal in a standard wood fired oven...good luck, lol.  A few years ago when my first oven was new I bought into the hype that coal ran hotter, so I got a bag of coal to give it a go.  To this day I've never got a single lump to ignite in a wood fired oven.  I've tried elevated grates, I've loaded it onto a pile of coals in a 1000F oven.  No go.  I've got about 3/4 of a bag left if anybody wants to drive to suburban Detroit and pick it up. 
-Jeff

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2011, 10:26:44 PM »
Norma,
Thanks for posting all that info.I seen similar stories on TV as well.Always good to read more about it.
 8)
-Bill

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2011, 10:32:14 PM »
I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims.  Plain and simple.  The two coal oven pizzerias here(one has a firedeck the other has a $100,000 custom build oven from some guy out east) operate their ovens at under 600F.  Both claim ridiculous temperatures, one claiming 1200F.  One of the them gets mention in national media and rankings from time to time and claim to have been trained in New Haven(can't remember which pizzeria).

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim.  Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 

As for burning coal in a standard wood fired oven...good luck, lol.  A few years ago when my first oven was new I bought into the hype that coal ran hotter, so I got a bag of coal to give it a go.  To this day I've never got a single lump to ignite in a wood fired oven.  I've tried elevated grates, I've loaded it onto a pile of coals in a 1000F oven.  No go.  I've got about 3/4 of a bag left if anybody wants to drive to suburban Detroit and pick it up. 

It depends on where in the oven the temps mentioned are measured from. I think too many places site the temperatures the coal pile itself can reach, which is irrelevant because the pizza is not placed on the pile.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2011, 10:35:48 PM »
Norma,
Thanks for posting all that info.I seen similar stories on TV as well.Always good to read more about it.
 8)

Bill,

I don't know if everything is accurate, but this website, does look accurate.  http://foodtimeline.org/

This is supposed to be from the food time line for pizza.  http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#pizza

Time line for NY style

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#nypizza

Norma

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2011, 11:00:05 PM »
It depends on where in the oven the temps mentioned are measured from. I think too many places site the temperatures the coal pile itself can reach, which is irrelevant because the pizza is not placed on the pile.

Thats a great way to explain it. The Frank Pepe pizza place I spoke about,uses a coal fired oven,yet they bake their pies around 600 degrees F or so.I do not doubt peak temps can reach very high levels in coal ovens,I think its more of a WOW factor to tell the customers about,a sales pitch than anything.
 :)



-Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2011, 11:06:55 PM »
Thank you for typing and posting this history lesson Kelly.  I really enjoyed reading it and looking forward to the rest of the article.  Interesting to read that American pizza has some roots in bread making.

Chau
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 11:23:39 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2011, 09:18:09 AM »
How 'Italian Food' Became A Global Sensation

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/24/134628158/how-italian-food-became-a-global-sensation

Listen to part of the story: http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=134628158&m=134818916

John F. Mariani book “How Italian Food Conquered the World", can be looked inside, at the below link, for other references, what pizza might been like in NY in older days, that other references might be found on the web.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Italian-Food-Conquered-World/dp/0230104398

History of Blodgett ovens.

http://www.blodgett.com/history.htm and http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Blodgett-Holdings-Inc-Company-History.html

Norma
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 09:41:45 AM by norma427 »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2011, 10:44:43 AM »
I've got a copy of that 1956 NY Times article mentioned in my previous, long story about Lombardi's & New York Pizza (to be continued).

The 1956 article sheds further light on the expanding popularity of pizza, its threat to topple the hot dog as America's favorite food, mechanization of the pizza process, etc.

Interestingly, towards the end of the article when the reviewer, Herbert Mitgang, is at Lombardi's, the following quote about the pizza which was made specifically for Mitgang:

"It [the pizza] had been in the oven for 12 minutes at 300°F".

Much longer bake times than the pies now being made at Lombardi's and the other coal-oven joints in NYC. I wonder if that is how they were made in the very beginning, but Gennaro Lombardi himself was there during the interview, so I imagine it would have to be similar to the way it was always done.

I'll also post the NY Times article later when I have time, as it is also a good read. --K
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 10:47:36 AM by pizzablogger »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2011, 06:36:00 PM »
There is an article on slice.seriouseats today, by Scott Wiener, on the story of coal-fired ovens.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/07/scotts-pizza-chronicles-rise-and-fall-and-rise-of-the-coal-oven.html

Norma

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2011, 09:24:38 AM »
I just got off the phone with Scott Klein at Reading Anthracite Coal.  


He gave me a freight quote of $490 + $200 for the coal = $690 for a ton of coal delivered to Texas  :'(.  I will continue to look for another source of a smaller amount.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 09:26:42 AM by Jet_deck »
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2011, 12:25:28 AM »
I have some thoughts on this coal oven thing/ the beginnig of NY style pizza that I would like for anyone to comment about.

 These guys are baking pizzas in a bread oven?  I respect the fact that they are using the oven that they have available.  The forum has a double handful of wood fired/ propane fired/ whatever fired ovens with low domes that cannot reproduce what style they were accustomed to in Italy.

Is there a possiblity that the NY style is a "Do what you can with what you got" adaptation of the "true" neopolitan style pizza ?

It seems couragous that flour would be imported at this early stage in the game of bread/pizza making.  The incoming boats would be full of passengers and what not.  But sacks of 00 flour?


I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims....

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim. 

Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 
[/quote]]
I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims....

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim. 

Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 
[/url]

I support this claim on the top heat available, especially in a bread oven.

....   Interestingly, towards the end of the article when the reviewer, Herbert Mitgang, is at Lombardi's, the following quote about the pizza which was made specifically for Mitgang:

"It [the pizza] had been in the oven for 12 minutes at 300°F".


What kind of pizza could anybody cook at 300 degrees F for 12 minutes, that a mass of people would approve of ?

Mini rant finished/  carry on.

 :)
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2011, 06:17:48 PM »
I believe that a discussion on this forum of the evolution of the New York style pizza would not be complete without considering the many highly informative posts that Evelyne Slomon (SLICEofSLOMON) entered on the forum on this subject. So, I went back and looked at all of Evelyne’s posts to isolate those that discussed various aspects of the way that the NY style pizza evolved starting from the time of the original Lombardi’s NYC location and through the decades to modern times. I have set forth the links to those posts below, in chronologicall order, just as Evelyne posted them on the forum. Readers may find it useful to read other posts in the threads in which Evelyne posted in order to better understand the context of Evelyne’s posts. I found her posts fascinating to read. They even answered some of the open questions that I had on the way that the NY style pizza evolved over a period of over one hundred years.

I think that our readers will see that Evelyne is not a shrinking violet and can be quite outspoken and candid, whether it is about pizza or people. While it has been some time since Evelyne has posted on the forum, she does check in on the forum from time to time. I personally miss her contributions and would love to see her become active again, whether it is about the NY style pizza or any other pizza subject near and dear to her heart.

Evelyne Slomon’s Posts re the Evolution of the NY Style Pizza
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg28747.html#msg28747 (Reply 424)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg28814.html#msg28814 (Reply 432)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28856.html#msg28856 (Reply 464)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3399.msg28955.html#msg28955 (Reply 29)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3399.msg28970.html#msg28970 (Reply 36)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29287.html#msg29287 (Reply 3)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29310.html#msg29310 (Reply 5)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29490.html#msg29490 (Reply 36)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29496.html#msg29496 (Reply 38)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29532.html#msg29532 (Reply 41)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29544.html#msg29544 (Reply 43)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3489.msg31563.html#msg31563 (Reply 47)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32476.html#msg32476 (Reply 8)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32525.html#msg32525 (Reply 16)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32537.html#msg32537 (Reply 19)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4125.msg34455.html#msg34455 (Reply 1)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081.html#msg37081 (Reply 298)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4477.msg37434.html#msg37434 (Reply 14)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg38358.html#msg38358 (Reply 304)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg38943.html#msg38943 (Reply 310)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg38948.html#msg38948 (Reply 312)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054.html#msg41054 (Reply 606)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42171.html#msg42171 (Reply 1)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42535.html#msg42535 (Reply 19)

Peter

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2011, 08:24:57 PM »
Wow Peter,thats alot of great info there! Thanks for doing all that work.
 8)
I read a few of them and wow,I wish I had read them before or some,a little more carefully.

After browsing some info,I did not read all of it,does anyone know the Lombardi's dough recipe or was that still kept a secret by Evelyn?Just curious,If it was posted,I havent gotten that far yet.
 :)

-Bill

Offline texmex

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2011, 09:15:36 AM »
Peter, you really know how to spin a tale and keep things even more interesting here. 

Well, I don't exactly mean spin a tale...but these concentrated specific link heavy threads are a fascinating insight to the inner workings of  pizza fanatics. 
Reesa

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2011, 11:27:07 AM »
After browsing some info,I did not read all of it,does anyone know the Lombardi's dough recipe or was that still kept a secret by Evelyn?Just curious,If it was posted,I havent gotten that far yet.

Bill,

Is there a particular version of a Lombardi's dough recipe that you are after? There was the original one before mixers and coolers and dry forms of yeast (ADY and IDY) were invented (but coal-fired ovens were in use), and then there is one in Evelyne's 1984 book (for the ordinary home pizza maker), and there is one that Evelyne modified from her book for our purposes on the forum, and there is the one she came up with for her own purposes (using a combination of room temperature and cold fermentation), and then there is the one Lombardi's has used in more modern times. Evelyne has even speculated that Lombardi's may be using par-baked crusts in order to meet the high volume with only one oven. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation evolved out of the Lombardi's dough but modified to use the straight-dough method and a day or more of cold fermentation, with a deck oven for baking. I believe that one might be able to piece together most of the Lombardi's dough recipes but for the one currently used, although even then one might be able to come reasonably close.

Peter

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2011, 11:36:34 AM »
Peter, you really know how to spin a tale and keep things even more interesting here. 

Well, I don't exactly mean spin a tale...but these concentrated specific link heavy threads are a fascinating insight to the inner workings of  pizza fanatics. 

Reesa,

I have Evelyne's book and there is much more on the evolution of the NY style in the posts and threads I referenced above than in her book. Evelyne also wrote one or more articles on the evolution of the NY style for Pizza Today but Pizza Today re-did their website a few years ago and since then I have not been able to locate articles that were available before the re-work. Even the archive lookback sites can't find the articles. Also, most of such articles are copyrighted and can't be reproduced here without permission.

Peter


Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2011, 12:06:59 PM »
Peter,

I was just curious as to what they did in the old days.Not after a particular kind,just like reading about all this.

Thanks!



-Bill

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2011, 02:07:59 PM »
Peter, thanks for posting those links.

There is indeed much more information there about pizza in New York than there is in TPB. I just printed all of those posts and am going through them in detail.

I also now have 125 articles I have printed, predominately from the NY Times, but a couple from the New Yorker as well, starting as far back as pizza goes in those archives (at this point most of them from around the WWII years). I have used up my monthly allotment of NY Times archive views for this month (allowed 100 per month), but will resume next month. Some interesting articles for sure, and Evelyne's posts help give credence to many of them. I may eventually make a very informal, unofficial, history of NYC pizza and post it here, being sure to cite resources, articles, etc (no copying of articles in their entirety).

What is intriguing is that Sloman's various material (TPB and posts here) shows that Lombardi's originally utilized the cheese first, then sauce, romano and olive oil sequencing that is used at Totonno's as well. We know that Anthony "Totonno" Pero of Totonno's and John Sasso of John's worked at Lombardi's before opening their own shops. However, Evelyne also mentions that Gennaro Lombardi sponsored other immigrants for 2-3 years who eventually went on to open their own shops elsewhere (most of such sponsoring was apparently done before the immigration quota system took effect in the 1920's).

The NY Times first mention of pizza was in 1944 and the pizzeria mentioned was not Lombardi's, but Luigino's Pizzeria alla Napoletana. The same sequencing used at Lombardi's is mentioned in the article...mootz first, then sauce, romano and olive oil. One has to wonder if Luigino learned this sequencing through watching pizzas being made at Lombardi's and/or Totonno's while visiting those shops or if he in fact was sponsored by and worked for Lombardi at one time?

While the 1944 NY Times article does not say how long Luigino's had been opened at that point, a later 1966 NY Times article speculated that Luigino's "may be the oldest established pizza house in the city", which hints that it may have opened much earlier than 1944?

It would be interesting to know if Luigino Milone of Luigino's did in fact work at Lombardi's, as we would have yet another branch from the Lombardi's tree which we knew about (even though Luigino's is now closed). --K
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 02:22:19 PM by pizzablogger »
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2011, 02:31:18 PM »
I was just curious as to what they did in the old days.Not after a particular kind,just like reading about all this.

Bill,

From what Evelyne has written, I tried to reconstruct what might have been the Lombardi's dough recipe as originally constituted and practiced. If I am not 100% correct, I believe that I am fairly close.

The original Lombardi's dough as made in 1905 comprised only flour, water, yeast and salt. No sugar or oil were used. The flour was a bleached, bromated, malted bread flour with a protein content of around 12-13%. Since ADY and IDY did not exist at that time (they had not yet been invented), the yeast was fresh yeast. The hydration was quite high, as much as 65%. The salt, at around 1%, was on the low side by today's standards. Since commercial mixers and coolers did not exist at that time, at least in the pizza trade, the dough was made entirely by hand and kneaded on a table. This was usually done early in the morning. After fermentation, at room temperature (commercial refrigerators with compressors and refrigerants came later), the dough was divided and placed in wooden boxes pending use to fill orders. The amount of yeast was determined to fit the window within which the dough balls would be used. There were no scales to weigh things. Everything was done using volume measurements and "feel", based mainly on experience. The dough balls were formed into skins by working on the hands and the knuckles. Typically, the skins were not tossed in the air. That would have been very difficult with a hand made bread flour dough at a hydration of around 65%.

As you will see from Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42449.html#msg42449 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42502.html#msg42502, I devoted a lot of time and effort trying to come up with thickness factors for the Lombardi and other elite pizza doughs, based on information that Evelyne provided. The information that Evelyne provided was necessarily inexact inasmuch as no one at the time weighed anything. But, based on that information, I would say that a good starting point for a thickness factor for the original Lombardi's dough would be around 0.08. I don't know what size pizza Lombardi's originally made, but I believe the current size is 16". With modest effort on your part, and using one of the dough calculating tools, I think that you should be able to come up with a dough formulation that reflects what was used back in 1905, but updated to reflect current ingredients. As you may know, Lombardi's closed in 1984 (or so I read) and reopened in 1996. By that time, the Lombardi's dough formulation and dough preparation and management methods had changed. The flour used was different and commercial mixers and refrigeration were in use.

Of course, having an updated version of the original Lombardi's dough recipe using modern flours and access to modern equipment is one thing. The missing part is the coal-fired oven. Yet, you might still be able to make a decent pizza using your home oven. Those with modified ovens or using metal baking plates or better pizza stones, and those with LBE's and wood-fired ovens, might be able to get even better results approachiing but not recreating the pizzas made using a coal-fired oven.

Peter


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2011, 02:51:50 PM »
As you may know, Lombardi's closed in 1984 (or so I read) and reopened in 1996.
Peter

This is true, and is even posted on the Lombardi's website.

However, according to Slomon, apparently Lombardi's actually closed down twice. The original location closed in the 1970's and re-opened a short time later as a more serious (non-pizza) Italian restaurant, the oven by this point being damaged from vibrations of the subway beneath 53 1/2 Spring Street (4 & 6 Trains) to the point of being unusable and it was shut-up.

Then it closed again in 1984 before the space was re-located up the street in 1996 in an old bakery with a coal-oven on site. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2011, 03:56:22 PM »
One of the interesting sidenotes that came up from my reading of Evelyne's posts is the pressure that publishers can put on authors in terms of what goes into a book. For example, the NY dough recipe in Evelyne's book at page 224 calls for 1 level teaspoon of ADY. Yet, for our members, she suggested 1/8-1/4 teaspoon of IDY. Apparently, the higher amount was to be sure that home pizza makers would succeed with the recipe and to speed up things and not have to wait a day or more to make a pizza, which was a matter of concern to the publisher. At one point, Evelyne talked about re-doing a revised expanded version of her original book or a completely new one (to which Evelyne alluded to in one of her posts). I detected great enthusiasm on Evelyne's part. But apparently that was not something that interested prospective publishers, as Evelyne noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42171.html#msg42171. I sometimes wonder how many other things are changed in books that turn something that is good or right into something that is less good or right solely to please a publisher who may know next to nothing about the subject in question.

Peter

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2011, 04:35:30 PM »
Peter,wow I was not expecting you to go to all that trouble to post anything more about the Lombardi dough,but many Thanks for doing so.

 :)

I have been making a lehmanns dough recently with just (KABF and sometimes Bouncer HG) Flour,water,yeast and salt.I'm experimenting between 63-65% at times.So far,they have been the best doughs I ever made.

They smell so good the next day after a fridge then room rise,and they taste incredible when cooked.Much better than the doughs I made with oil and sugar.

Anyway back to the topic,reading about the old days,makes me want to try even more simple dough recipes or tweak them around some more at home.

They really knew what they were doing back then.I love reading about the History and all the great comments.
 :)






« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:44:48 PM by chickenparm »
-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2011, 05:21:46 PM »
This article says that in NY the first mention of pizza was in 1903 from the New York Tribune.  “Pizza Pomidore”

http://firstmention.com/pizza.aspx

Another blog that mentions  “pomidore pizza” or “tomato pizza” before 1905  http://restaurant-ingthroughhistory.com/2009/02/09/basic-fare-pizza/

The comments can be seen at the end of the article.

Norma

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2011, 05:48:57 PM »
Thanks for the links Norma. Interesting!  :D

In the first link there is a mention of, "And no, it wasn't from Ray's Pizzeria (the real one, on Seventh Avenue)"

I'm assuming they are referring to the Famous Original Ray's Pizza on 7th Avenue in the Theater District, which was opened in 1964....or five years after Ray's Pizza opened on Prince Street in 1959 (the actual first "Ray's" incarnation). Although many are perhaps most familiar with Famous Ray's (11th & 6th in Greenwich Village).

The Ray's confusion is always humoring to see. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell