Author Topic: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)  (Read 37597 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2011, 07:31:40 PM »
Kelly and anyone else that might be interested,

I don’t know if you ever saw this article or not, but I will post it.

http://nymag.com/restaurants/cheapeats/2009/57894/


Norma


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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2011, 08:25:08 PM »
In the first link there is a mention of, "And no, it wasn't from Ray's Pizzeria (the real one, on Seventh Avenue)"

I'm assuming they are referring to the Famous Original Ray's Pizza on 7th Avenue in the Theater District, which was opened in 1964....or five years after Ray's Pizza opened on Prince Street in 1959 (the actual first "Ray's" incarnation). Although many are perhaps most familiar with Famous Ray's (11th & 6th in Greenwich Village).

The Ray's confusion is always humoring to see.

Kelly,

There was an article recently at the New York Times, at http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/25/nyregion/in-a-pizza-war-it-s-3-rays-against-the-rest.html?scp=2&sq=Ray's%20pizza&st=cse, that touches on the question of who Ray is/was. Several years ago, after reseaching how many pizzerias there were in NYC with the name "Ray" in them, I also reported on a couple of explanations of who "Ray" was, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,640.msg5841.html#msg5841. The explanation in the NYT article seems to be essentially the same as the FoodNetwork came up with through its research. (For those who are interested, Peter Reinhart's explanation is at pages 38-39 of his book American Pie.)

For fun today, I decided to update my earlier lists of the different Ray's in NYC, using the NYC yellow pages. If my eyeballs didn't deceive me with all of the similar names, here is the updated list (with the number of stores in parentheses):

Famous Original Ray's Pizza (16)
Ray Bari Pizza (10)
Ray's Pizza (7)
Harlem Rays Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Ray's Pizza
Famous Ray's Pizza (3)
Original Ray's Pizza & Restaurant (2)
World Famous Ray's Pizza (2)
Original Ray's Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Original Ray's Pizza & Restaurant
Ray's Real Pizza (1)
New York Ray's Pizza (1)
Ray Pizza Inc (1)--this may be a holding company
Ray's Pizza Bagel Cafe (1)
Bagel Cafe Rays Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Ray's Pizza Bagel Cafe
Ray Bono Pizza (1)
Not Rays Pizza (1)

The number of pizzerias in the above list is 49. In 2004, there were 47 Ray's. In 2008, when I last updated the list, there were 50-52 Ray's on the list. It doesn't look like they are "evolving" all that much. However, it should be noted that there are several Ray's in NJ and apparently in several other states. I remember eating at one (a franchise) in Scottsdale, AZ several years ago.

Peter






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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2011, 08:53:35 PM »
Kelly and Peter,

Was there a big lawsuit or legal battle over the Ray name for a while? I kept thinking I seen that on TV a while back but was not 100% sure.

Sounded like in the end,just the Lawyers got Rich,and they came to an agreement of some kind?

Norma,thanks for the link.I laughed when I read this:
2006: Domino’s introduces “Brooklyn style” pizza; incurs wrath of Brooklynites.
 :-D
-Bill

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2011, 01:37:45 PM »
I am not sure how to verify this article to see if it is true or not, but in this article it tells about how the first big pizzerias in NY had to use mozzarella supplied by the mob and why the pizzerias weren’t allowed to sell slices of pizza.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroad/2011/04/a_detail_about.php

Another article with a timeline on the left of the article about pizza and pictures of Lombardi’s Pizzeria on right. http://www.interestingamerica.com/2011-01-12_Lombardi_Pizza_NYC_by_C_Doherty.html

I wonder what kind of mozzarella was used on the first pizzas in NY, since I don’t think they had Bufala Mozzarella all those years ago in NY.  I did see on the web that Giuseppe Pollio did start making mozzarella at Coney Island, Brooklyn in 1899, under the name Pollio Dairy Company, then it became Polly-O, now owned by Kraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polly-O
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/08/nyregion/q-a-mark-pettie-keeping-alive-100-years-of-cheese-making.html

Norma
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 01:40:34 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2011, 09:14:01 AM »
Norma, the mozzarella used on the first pizzas in NYC was fior-di-latte (fresh mozzarella), made by local persons in the neighborhood, if not by the pizzeria itself. In fact, Slomon does mention that when fresh mozzarella wasn't available from the local purveyor of Lombardi's, they had to obtain curd and make it fresh themselves.

I have a couple of newspaper articles from the 40s which also cite fresh mozzarella being used on pizzas at the time.

Keep in mind there were no distribution networks for pizza stores back then, as pizza didn't really become more widespread, in fact even known by much of the general public, until the late 40s and 50s.

The first instance of mozzarella di bufala being used that I know about was by Domenico DeMarco at DiFara pizza, which opened up in 1964 and from all accounts used bufala from the start.

Looking forward to reading your article links Norma, thanks --K
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 09:49:32 AM by pizzablogger »
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2011, 11:15:04 AM »
Norma, the mozzarella used on the first pizzas in NYC was fior-di-latte (fresh mozzarella), made by local persons in the neighborhood, if not by the pizzeria itself. In fact, Slomon does mention that when fresh mozzarella wasn't available from the local purveyor of Lombardi's, they had to obtain curd and make it fresh themselves.

I have a couple of newspaper articles from the 40s which also cite fresh mozzarella being used on pizzas at the time.

Keep in mind there were no distribution networks for pizza stores back then, as pizza didn't really become more widespread, in fact even known by much of the general public, until the late 40s and 50s.

The first instance of mozzarella di bufala being used that I know about was by Domenico DeMarco at DiFara pizza, which opened up in 1964 and from all accounts used bufala from the start.

Looking forward to reading your article links Norma, thanks --K

Kelly,

Thanks for the information about the cheese.  :) I find any kind of history interesting, and especially anything about pizza, or what they might have done years ago in NY.  I did contact the Museum of Food in NY to see if they have any other information about pizzas years ago in NY, but they emailed me back that they didn’t have any of that information. 

Will be looking forward to what you find and post, and also what any other members finds and posts.  I really think this thread is interesting.

I knew no distribution networks were available back in the first days of pizza in the US.  Would be interested in seeing your newspaper articles if you can post them.

There are pictures on Getty images, that some of them go back years ago, but not to the beginning.  I don’t know if I link those images if that will infringe on copyrights or not.

Norma

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2011, 06:05:28 PM »
Kelly,

I don’t know if you already found out any of this information or not, or if others might be interested, but here are some more things I found.

The book 97 Orchard: by Jane Ziegelman:  An Edible History of Five Immigrant Families in One New York Tenement tells the story of how food and pizza played into the NY scene years ago.  This is a video on Book TV C-Span2 about the book. 

http://www.booktv.org/Watch/11653/97+Orchard+An+Edible+History+of+Five+Immigrant+Families+in+One+New+York+Tenement.aspx

In the book 97 Orchard: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7833009-97-orchard
It tells about how Italian peddlers hawked the cheese-and-tomato pies known as pizzarelli.  If you click on more, under the story introduction, the above sentence can be seen.

Some websites offer a look inside of some of the pages of 97 Orchard.  On the table of contents on it shows the Baldizzi Family. http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Immigrant-Families-Tenement/dp/0061288500/?tag=pizzamaking-20   It can be seen on the notes where someone might search for more information.  Some of those articles are old and might be hard to find.


On page 9 of this PDF. Document http://www.ait.org.tw/infousa/zhtw/DOCS/ijse0704.pdf
it tells about how Italians immigrants from Naples, arriving at Ellis Island, and how before too long there were living around Mulberry St. in Manhattan and were desperately trying to reproduce the food of their homeland.  From those efforts did come pizza and other Italian foods. 

Norma

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2011, 11:15:24 AM »
Kelly or anyone that might be interested,

I did contact the Library of Congress at: http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/
under, ask a librarian.  http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/  to see if I could find any articles that might have be printed in newspapers before 1905 about pizza.  I did specifically ask about the article mentioned in the New York Tribune.

This is what I wrote, and what the librarian replied from the Library of Congress.

Question History:

Patron: Do you have access to any old (1900- 1905) newspaper articles from NYC
about how Italian immigrants brought over and made the first pizzas, before any
pizza businesses were opened, or maybe where I could find information about the
first pizza business maybe by some kind of Italian posts. I am studying about
pizza in NYC and would like to find out what I can.  I do have a lot of
information and the earliest thing I can learn was from 1903 when a pomidore
pizza was made in NY.  I think that article was in the NY Tribune.

Thanks!

Librarian 2: I did find the article you mentioned from the New York Tribune.
However, I haven't found many other newspaper articles in our indexes. Here are
two though, the second of which goes into some detail:

1. Headline: What to Eat; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Morning Herald, published as The Morning Herald; Date: 12-29-1902;
Volume: 32; Issue: 363; Page: 2; Location: Lexington, Kentucky
 
2. Headline: "Hot Cakes" in North Street Toothsome Dainties, Favorites with
Neapolitan Palates, Are Pizze Cavuie And; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Boston Journal, published as Boston Sunday Journal; Date: 10-04-1903;
Issue: 522; Page: 12; Location: Boston, Massachusetts

Scans of the articles are attached.

I would suggest that you search for "pizza" in Google Books. Limit your search
to 19th century publications and you will find mentions decades before 1900.
Since books before 1923 aren't under copyright, you should typically be able to
view these books in their entirety through Google.

I hope this information is of some help. Thank you for contacting the Library of
Congress.

Thomas P Jabine
Newspaper and Current Periodical Room
Serial and Government Publications Division
Library of Congress

Explore history's first draft at Chronicling America: Historic American
Newspapers - <http://www.loc.gov/chroniclingamerica/>


This is the link I found after searching the above link.

 http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1903-12-06/ed-1/seq-35/;words=pizza?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1904&proxtext=++Pizza&y=14&x=5&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

And this is the scanned article, that I typed out from the Library of Congress.  A few of the scanned words, might not be correct, because the scan was kind of hazy.

“Hot Cakes” IN NORTH STREET

Toothsome Dainties, Favorites with Neapolitan Plates, Are Pizza Cavuie and Taraluccio--Beer, Not Wine, Therewith.

Scattered though North and Prince streets and other portions of the Italian colony where Neapolitans congregate are occasional little shops with the words “Pizze Cavule” on the windows.  The words mean simply “hot cakes” in the Neapolitan  dialect.  But only a traveler would know that the pizze are one of the famous products of Naples, eaten by rich and poor, high and low, and dutifully partaken of by every tourist as one of the features that must be “done” in order to say that one has seen Naples.  The devotion of the American race to pie is a poor thing in comparison, with that of the Neapolitans for their pizze.  It is a deeper passion  than that of Devonshire for clotted cream, or of Boston for baked beans. Every restaurant serves them, and after the play is over the theatre-goers pour into cafes to eat hot pizze.

Neapolitans in Boston say that there are few place in the city to which the famous Naples specialty has been successfully transplanted.  A visit to one these reveals a window piled so high with great round Italian cheeses that the interior is invisible.  Entering, one sees a long table, covered with brown oilcloth and bounded by long black benches.  One side of the room is lined with little private supper rooms about the size of theatre boxes, petitioned off with black wood.  Each is filled with a party of men, peacefully dining on pizze.  A bright tin bucket of beer is in the centre of the table, and passes from lip to lip without the formality of glasses.  The shop does not sell beer.  When a man gives his order he takes a bucket from a stack provided for the purpose, and goes to a neighboring bar for his beer.  By the time he gets back his order is ready, for the pizze cook quickly.

Making the Cake

In behind, two Neapolitan bakers, clothed in white are baking pizze from morning till night, and almost from night until morning.  Quantities of dough are kept prepared, made in fat rolls.  The baker takes a roll, and with a few deft slips flattens it as flat as a pancake but somewhat thicker and little larger than in ordinary pie.  Then he dobs bits of lard on its surface.  Over this he sprinkles grated cheese, from a dish which stands always full beside him.  Then he pours on cooked tomato and on top he throws a handful of oreganta, the spicy aromatic herb which is such a favorite Italian seasoning.  The cheese used is Roman, so much employed for culinary purposes.  The whole operation has not taken him more than a minute.  The he slaps it on a broad, flat, long-handled paddle, and thrusts it into the furnace.  In two minutes it is done. 

It comes to the table on a big, flat pewter plate. Ordinarily individual plates are not furnished or required,  for every true Neapolitan takes his piece of pizze, folds it over so that the crust is outside, and eat it from the hand.  The pastry seems to be a cross between bread dough and pie crust, and is not lacking in suggestions that when cold it might lie somewhat heavily upon the unaccustomed interior.  But as a whole the confections is enticing, by reason of its delectable hot-ness and crispness, and the cunning blend of spicy flavors for which it is renowned.  It is probably indigestible, but certainly no more than Welsh rarebit.

On the walls of the pizze shop are the pictures of the King and Queen and of Garibaldi, and also a placard which with elaborate politeness begs the customer to be so kind as not to be in a hurry, as patience will enable them to be better served, and also to have the goodness not to be offended if on Sunday, by reason of crowd, the are required to pay when they give their order.

A cake of this size is 10 cents, and there are smaller one for 5 cents.  In Naples the price ranges from 10 cents down to a penny for little one containing only a good-sized mouthful.  A favorite cry for them at the doors of the bakeries in Naples is “Ca’pumarola e elice”, which is dialect for “With tomatoes and anchovy,” some of them being made with anchovy there, though the fish is never added here.  Men may sometime be seen on the streets, particularly on feast days, carrying tray of the hot cakes fresh from the bakeshops, and crying “pizzelle”.  These are merely the baked dough, however, without any of the added ingredients which make the pizze so succulent a morse.

Norma

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2011, 01:04:16 PM »
Norma, excellent sluething.

Great minds think alike.....I am going to go to the LOC soon for some research digging. It's not too far from where I live. Was a lot closer when I lived in DC thought.

I also have access to a couple of public libraries which have some older newspaper archives as well.

I'm not sure what I am trying to do with all of this.....the initial NY Times articles I have are mostly short, but there are some interesting tidbits which help support some of the history given in various pizza books. I guess I just find it very interesting to read and gain these echoes from the past, however faint they are.

The key with all of this information is how to distill it into a presentable form. I have started this in some fashion, but I'm not sure it will ultimately be any more meaningful than the various pizza histories already published in various pizza books. It certainly won't make anyone a better pizza maker. But then again I have always liked the history and background information for anything I am interested in. I'm not sure why it has taken me so long to dig into the newspaper archives yet. Still another 2 weeks before I can access my next 100 articles on the NY Times archives as part of my subscription (100 articles per month).

BTW Norma, good pull on the 97 Orchard Book. I have ordered it from Amazon and am awaiting delivery. Have you ever strolled down Orchard Street on a Saturday afternoon? All types of clothes, furnishings etc (non-"corporate" and totally unlike the fiasco of Broadway in SoHo & NoHo) at often very sharp prices. And if you start on the Southern end and walk North, you end up in Chinatown and Little Italy....good bite to eat after a walk. --K
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2011, 01:33:18 PM »
Norma, the North Street article is fantastic....and further prooves the point that there is no clear answer to who or where pizza was first sold in America. I would imagine the very first places selling pizza sprang up in various Northeaster cities within a short period of time.

Thanks so much for posting that!  :)
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2011, 05:05:57 PM »
Kelly,

I thought about the Italians immigrating to the US, and why wouldn’t they try to make their own foods here in some fashion, even before the first licensed pizza establishment. If they ate pizze or what is what ever they called it in Italy, why wouldn’t they try to replicate it in the US.  The bakers did have access to ovens. I was surprised when I saw the article that the Library of Congress sent me from Boston.  I never would have thought Boston would have had such an active pizze community.  I wonder what happened to that. There must be many other articles out there somewhere.  The problem is just to find them.  I have always enjoyed reading about what people did years ago, and pizza isn’t an exception.  

I am glad you are going to the Library of Congress and do more research digging.  Almost every article I have read before you posted on this thread is about how the first pizzeria started in NY, and not much of anything else.  I also enjoy reading tidbits from the past, however faint they are.  I could imagine myself in Boston eating one of those pies, just from reading the scan.  

I don’t know where Orchard St. is in NY.  I will have to try a stroll down Orchard St. sometime when I am  in NY.  I will be interested in what you can learn when you read the book Orchard St.  

I also agree, that the very first pizzas probably sprang up in a short while in Northeaster cities.

If there is any other way I can help you research just let me know.  I enjoy digging.  

Best of luck in your research, and I would be looking forward to what you find.  ;D

Norma

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2011, 05:32:29 PM »
Hey Norma,

Just a bit off topic, but:

97 Orchard: by Jane Ziegelman was a great read.  An interesting social history that both my wife and I enjoyed it.  Check it out if you haven't already...

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2011, 05:55:32 PM »
Hey Norma,

Just a bit off topic, but:

97 Orchard: by Jane Ziegelman was a great read.  An interesting social history that both my wife and I enjoyed it.  Check it out if you haven't already...

Paul,

This for telling me 97 Orchard was a great read.  I think I am going to purchase the book.

Thanks!  :)

Norma

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2011, 05:56:34 PM »
Kelly or anyone else that is interested,

I found another article from the Sun in 1905.  In the newspaper article it says there are only two places in NY where you can get real Neapolitan pizze.  One on Spring St. and one on Grand.  It sounds like from this article the other article really didn’t talk about the pizze being in Boston.  What do you think?  The article is at the middle bottom of the page.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030272/1905-06-18/ed-1/seq-31/;words=bakers+Neapolitan?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1905&proxtext=Neapolitan+bakers&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

Norma

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2011, 09:45:45 AM »
Norma, I have a copy of that Sun article. But I have never been able to find out the name of the shop on Grand Street (Grand, Spring and Orchard are all in Little Italy/Chinatown, with Orchard running down into the Lower East Side as well.

What did the newspaper article from Lexington, Kentucky say?

I agree with you about immigration and immigrants yearning for native foods. That's one of the great things about immigration is the importation of their foods, customs, etc. Likely the first pizza shops sprung up spontaneously in the areas where Southern Italians migrated to, with Philadelphia (indeed all of PA saw an influx of Italian immigrants), Trenton NJ, NYC, New Haven and Boston being among the more heavily immigrated to cities in the early 1900s. Since the Southern Italian "Great Arrival" did not begin in ernest until around 1880, I would imagine the first pizza sellers were bound to spring up sometime in the 1890s as Southern Italian neighborhoods became more entrenched.

Baltimore has seen an incredible boom in its Latin population over the last decade. There are several excellent places to get real tacos now (including an actual Tortelleria making fresh tortillas sold by the kilo daily made from a rickety machine). I can't think which place was first....they all kind of came into being right around the same time. Proves the old saying....if you have a good idea, you can bet at least one other person has already thought of it as well.

As far as the early NY papers not mentioning the Boston pizza, I doubt they even knew of it. The availability of broadband service has really changed the world. We can instantly learn about topics at our whim. Back then in the early 1900s, I would imagine many news media persons had relatively limited knowledge what was happening around NYC, much less other cities. Even in 1900 NYC was a huge city of nearly 3.5 million residents, which is still a large number of people in a city by today's standards. That, combined with pizza being constricted to ethnic Italian neighborhoods shielded the goings on of pizza from many citizens.

Last night I also happened upon the first articles in San Francisco that mention Lupo's, which is now Tommaso's. The Tommaso's website claims the oven there was the first brick oven in the West. The San Francisco news articles I have date back to the late 1930s, so the claim of Lupo's being there since 1935 is credible. The pizza making process described in the articles sounds much like NY-Neapolitan pizza. So Lupo's opened only two years after Patsy Lancieri started slinging pies out of a coal-fired oven in East Harlem.

http://tommasos.com/--K
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 09:49:02 AM by pizzablogger »
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2011, 09:53:47 AM »
Off topic, but those interested in history, or NYC, would be well served by reading the book Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898. Fantastic and fascinating read.
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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2011, 11:42:05 AM »
Kelly,

The article from Lexington, Kentucky doesn’t say a lot.  This is what it said.

It was titled “What to Eat”, and first starts out by saying, the Christmas number of What to Eat is full of pertinent holiday matter, then goes on to talk about food for Christmas and Congress might be acting on the food question and the Drink Habit Among Women.  The part of the article pertaining to pizza only says:  Mascagni and his favorite dish “Pizza Neapolitana” is timely topic in Genie H. Rosenfeld’s “Notes Drama Dramatic.”.  Margaret Rayburn tells what the New York shops hold for Christmas shoppers.  I don’t know if Genie H. Rosenfeld’s  “Notes Dramatic” or recorded anywhere or not.  At the end of the article it says The Pierce Publishing Company, Chicago.

Thanks for your explanation about where Southern Italian immigrated to.  In the relation to the Boston article and the one from the New York Tribune, they are both saying almost the same things, but are years apart.  I wonder why that is.

Thanks also for finding out about Lupo’s, which is now Tommaso’s.  I didn’t know anything about them before.  It is interesting that Lupo’s opened only two years after Pasty Lancieri started slinging pies out of coal-fried oven in East Harlem.

When I was searching more last evening, I had to chuckle when I searched Roman cheese in New York Tribune papers.  I only can guess that is what they must have used on their pizzas, but there was a funny article about someone stealing the expensive Roman cheese and the police search for the Roman cheese.  They did finally find it after a few days, and the person was arrested.  The police said their noses led them to the Roman cheese.  I wonder what that smelled like.

While doing searches for pushcarts, wagon carts and other things in the New York Tribune, there are articles about Italian immigrants selling spaghetti on the carts and also images.  I also searched Little Italy and saw pictures of what street carts looked like back so many years ago, how health inspectors were concerned, and how many blocks the street carts were on. When I have time, I will try to search for where the pizza was made on Grand St. 

Thanks for all your research.  :) Looking forward to finding out more.

Norma


Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2011, 02:33:10 PM »
I just stumbled upon this thread and intend to read through it over the upcoming days. I also find the history of pizza to be quite interesting. Much of what I have read suggests that pizza in America started in neighborhood bakeries in the large East coast cities. The fact that a bakery would have dough and an appropriate oven make this assumption highly believable. Bakers supposedly used extra dough and formed "tomato pies" for hungry workers in their neighborhood. Cheese was too expensive for the "working man", but a piece of dough with tomatoes, baked in the already fired ovens was an affordable treat for the working man and a source of income for the bakery.
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Online norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2011, 03:04:46 PM »
Kelly or anyone that is interested,

I hope I am not too far off-topic, with this post.  I really don’t know what is in the book, mentioned below, pertaining to evolution of NY pizzas, but would think some of the references might be useful in finding information, because Andrew P. Haley is a historian, and has searched diaries, and other places no one has search before about NY food and how it evolved.

Turning the Tables, Restaurants and the Rise of the American Middle Class, 1880-1920 by: Andrew P. Haley seems like a book with a lot of references in the book, to where someone might find out more about Italian immigrants and their role in the NY food scene and maybe pizza. http://www.uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1899

http://americareads.blogspot.com/2011/06/pg-99-andrew-p-haleys-turning-tables.html

At the look inside feature at the index, on Amazon, the selected works consulted can be seen.

http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Tables-Restaurants-American-1880-1920/dp/0807834742/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I have been looking under old Google books or articles, and have found snippets from the past on mixers, pizzas, and other things.

Edit:  I had emailed Andrew P. Haley, PHD at andew.haley@usm.edu. . about if in his searches for his book, if he found anything out about pizzas in New York, when the Italian immigrants came to the US.  He replied that he couldn’t specifically remember anything he found, but would go through his notes.  Andrew said mostly, though, he was paying attention to the evolution of spaghetti, so it was possible he missed any references to pizza.  He gave me a promise and had a suggestion.  His promise was he needs to review some of his sources for another project he is working on (due in mid September, so it will happen soon). and he will keep his eyes open for anything that might be of interest.  The other suggestion he gave me is to look at the turn-of-the-century culinary magazine called Table Talk.  He said it was published in Philadelphia and featured the work of Sarah Rorer. Andrew said the recipes were responses to readers requests, and were surprisingly heavy on ethnic recipes including some fairly usual dishes.  He said he would look though his notes to see if he can find any reference to pizza.  He said it might be worth another look.  I saw Table Talk when I was searching under Google books last evening, but didn’t give it another thought.  I also have a couple more emails out. 


Norma

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2011, 01:43:58 PM »
I got some good information over the past several days with regards to the impact of the unification of Italy on Southern Italy, how it actually helped exacerbate the poverty there, the subsequent push to America as well as some details on the different areas that southern Italian immigrants established in the city (NYC). I was always curious why Patsy Lancieri opened Patsy's (in 1933) all the way up in East Harlem so far away from the concentration of Italians in Little Italy. I now know why.

More later. --K
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Online norma427

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »
Kelly,

I don’t know if you or other members ever saw these videos about Frank Mastro, and how he started inventing and designing deck ovens and pizza equipment years ago.  The video is called “The Pizza King! Mastro Pizza ‘64-’65 NY Worlds Fair Video”.  

!

ffneodoc commented on the second video below:
This is a slightly higher quality video, captured in MP4 Format. My Cousin Vincent Mastro and I are going to work on a Web Site that has more about Frank's contributions to Pizza from the 30's to the mid 50's, & Vincent furthering his Dad's (Frank) dream that Pizza would sometime be as popular as the hotdog. It will be at www.fferrentino.com



These videos were uploaded July 6, 2011.

I never heard of Frank Mastro before, or how he studied about pizza ovens and equipment, and invented many kinds of pizza equipment.

I found this video on Scotts Pizza Tours blog. http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/

http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/8128500579/mastro-pizza-pavillion-1964-film

These posts are on a forum about Mastro Pizza at the 65/65 NY worlds’ fair.

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/m197589-print.aspx

Norma
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 09:51:45 PM by norma427 »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2011, 09:15:52 PM »
Norma,

The first link showing Frank Mastro's oven design should be considered a piece of pizza history. Well, I'm sure it is already today and it's very informative.

Thanks for the link. But can someone please educate me and tell me why pizza is referred to a pie?

I know I've used the term extensively but always wondered about it because it has little in common/to do with traditional pies, such as Apple, Boston Cream or a Pumpkin pie.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2011, 09:31:50 PM »
Mike,

We talked a little bit about it here.I still dont really know,it was a NY thing growing up.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13624.0.html

:)

-Bill

Offline Essen1

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2011, 11:07:07 PM »
Mike,

We talked a little bit about it here.I still dont really know,it was a NY thing growing up.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13624.0.html

:)



I saw that post before. But is it really because of Dean Martin and his song?

Mike

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2011, 11:11:55 PM »
I saw that post before. But is it really because of Dean Martin and his song?



No idea...just something I heard growing up and it stuck.
 :)
-Bill