Food Detectives Prove NY Water Matters in NY Pizza

[PizzaEater101]

This is a technique that is sometimes used to do blind tastings of wines.

There is an LA pizza chain that has been using water that has the same mineral content as NY water (the Catskills), as mentioned at http://events.la.com/los-angeles-ca/venues/show/977229-johnnies-new-york-pizza-cafe#.

Peter

Funny thing is that I didn't realize it but 10 years ago, in 2001 I went to Johnnie's NY Pizza.  I did not realize it but the other day, my niece and I were in Santa Monica, out at what's called the 3rd Street Promenade and there is a Johnnie's Pizza there.  I walked by it not realizing when Peter gave the link to Johnnie's that I had been there 10 years ago.  I remember years well normally and I know in 2001 I ate there but forgetting this I can't recall how I liked the pizza.  I know I liked it but not sure what degree I liked it.  Darn, I can't recall.  I plan on going out there to try out Johnnie's again sometime.  Back then I was not a NY pizza fan, I didn't know much about it.  So when I ate there in 2001 I ate it not even giving it a second thought but this time I will.

[chrisgraff]

I recently noticed that my regular choice for water, Dasani, has clorine.  While Aquafina works well enough, I'm trying different options.

http://www.janawater.com/ - bottled in Croatia, has a higher mineral content.  Waiting for my doughs made with this to reach my prefered six day mark; we'll see.

http://www.newyorkspringwater.com/natural_spring_water.php?section=3  New York spring water, anyone?

http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Water/Italy/index.asp  How about a list of 600 italian bottled waters?

If water matters, it stands to reason that a blind (drinking) taste-test would be worthwhile.  Thoughts?

[PizzaEater101]

chrisgraff, hey any relation to Stefi Graff that you know of?

Thanks for posting the NY water link.  I actually intend on making pizza with NY water, I just have to find some.  I posted a link earlier to some NY bottled water but there was not a store locate link but the one you linked to does have a store locate link and supposedly 7-11 carries it.  Hope I can find it at my local 7-11.  

There is some controversy as you can see, whether or not water matters but I'm willing, just as Norma is and you are to experiment with that and use different waters.  It's just plain fun to find out thru home experiments if there is a difference in taste with water.

You are right not to use bottled water with chlorine in it.  I use water from the fridge water dispenser.  It's filtered.  I think it takes out the chlorine but not certain.  I just think it does.  It will not take out fluoride but if you want to take out the fluoried out of home water then you need a reverse osmosis system which I don't have.  Fortunately even tho I live in the suburbs of LA, my local munincipality does not add fluoride to the water.  I don't want fluoride or chlorine in my water or pizza.  

Today I bought some Samoan bottled water.  I was looking for NY water at this Japanese store that carries lots of diff bottled waters but no such luck.  Saw some Hawaiian bottled water and was gonna go with that because the Hawaiian Islands hold a special place in my heart but with that said I saw the Samoan water and was intrigued by it and decided to try that out.  I am busy now but eventually I'll make some pizza with that water and some with my local water that is filtered and compare.  

Look, you all who say water is a myth are probably right but I wanna just experiment for fun.  Norma did and her results were impressive.  She stated that if cooking the crust alone you can taste the diff in the NY water dough but when the pizza is all dressed up and in real pizza form the difference could not be tasted.  She did a great job of testing this myth.  I wonder if I'll get the same results but I'm using Samoan vs Los Angeles water, not NY water unless I can find that bottled stuff chris linked to.  I hope I can.  I'm a so-called supertaster so it's possible I can taste the diff when others can not. Who knows, right?

Oh here are some specs they placed on the water -

Silica 46 mg/l
Calcium 17 mg/l
Magnesium 16 mg/l
pH 7.9
Bicarbonates 150 mg/l

I think these are very diff from NY pizza but I'll try it anyway and see how I like it.  I should go back to Johnnie's Pizza to try the pizza they make out of modified water that is similar to NY in mineral content. 

[chrisgraff]

Interesting comparison:

NYC water - sourced from http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate09.pdf

Silica 2.5
Calcium 5.5 mg/l
Magnesium 1.2 mg/l
pH 7.2
Bicarbonates (not listed)

Compared to:

sourced from: http://www.mineralwaters.org/

Jana

Silica 4.2 mg/l
Calcium 63 mg/l
Magnesium 32.5 mg/l
pH 7.4
Bicarbonates 354.7 mg/l

Evian

Silica 13.5 mg/l
Calcium 78.0 mg/l
Magnesium 24.0 mg/l
pH 7.2
Bicarbonates 357.0 mg/l

Volvic

Silica 30.0 mg/l
Calcium 9.9 mg/l
Magnesium 6.1 mg/l
pH 7.0
Bicarbonates 258.0 mg/l

Poland Springs

Silica (n/a)
Calcium 4.0-9.5 mg/l
Magnesium .78-1.5 mg/l
pH 6.0-7.1
Bicarbonates 5.9-31.5

Fiji

Silica 85 mg/l
Calcium 17 mg/l
Magnesium 13 mg/l
pH 7.5
Bicarbonates 146 mg/l

San Pelligrino

Silica 9 mg/l
Calcium 208 mg/l
Magnesium 55.9 mg/l
pH 7.7
Bicarbonates 135.5 mg/l

Perrier

Silica (n/a)
Calcium 147.3 mg/l
Magnesium 3.4 mg/l
pH 5.46
Bicarbonates 390 mg/l

San Bennedetto

Silica 17 mg/l
Calcium 46 mg/l
Magnesium 30 mg/l
pH 7.68
Bicarbonates 293 mg/l

San Felice

Silica 8.6
Calcium 58.7
Magnesium 8.7
pH 7.38
Bicarbonates 200 mg/l

Levissima

Silica 5.7 mg/l
Calcium 19.5 mg/l
Magnesium 1.7 mg/l
pH 7.8
Bicarbonates 56.8 mg/l


PS no relation to Stefi ;-)

[chrisgraff]

All this talk of water...

I've made eight pizzas worth of dough with this Jana brand.  Haven't eaten any yet.

Just tasted it against my (filtered) tap water.  I prefered my tap-water 

Jana had a slight smell, definitely more minerals.  We'll see how the pizzas turn out.

[November]

I miss our friend november!          

Well, you could always search through my past posts in fond remembrance. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg38039.html#msg38039

[PizzaEater101]

All this talk of water...

I've made eight pizzas worth of dough with this Jana brand.  Haven't eaten any yet.

Just tasted it against my (filtered) tap water.  I prefered my tap-water 

Jana had a slight smell, definitely more minerals.  We'll see how the pizzas turn out.

I know this is an old thread but how did the dough with Jana turn out?

[Tatoosh]

A good double blind test with an array of tasters would be the ideal.  Single variable being the water, all doughs prepared identically otherwise.  And an array of tests done where only crusts are evaluated, then crusts with sauce and cheese. Then breaking down the tasters into a variety of groups, pizza aficionados, and so forth in order that you could see if some groups are more sensitive to differences than others.  Even checking to see if the tasters fall in the super, regular, limited taster groups would be good data.  I am guessing that some commercial outfits have done this already, but are holding onto that info for their own advantage (if any). 

[PizzaEater101]

Even though there are different mineral contents of different waters, I highly doubt water makes a big difference in pizza taste.  I want to do test on this too.

[TXCraig1]

Of all the things one could focus on to make better pizza, I would have to think this must rank dead last (or pretty close to it) in value.

CL

[pizzaneer]

I'm not too sure about that.  About the difference in taste? Yes, it's going to be negligible.  But I do think that different mineral concentrations in varying waters will impact such factors as yeast development, rise time and thus gluten development.  While I was a member of a breadmaking forum, one member from NM went through a tortuous process of trying to figure out why his dough did not rise.  Eventually, the problem was identified as lack of minerals in his RO drinking water supply.  Possibly an isolated, extreme case, but it still makes me think that some development interaction with yeast can be attributed to the chemical makeup of the water.

I really don't think a blind taste test could pick up this difference.  The difference would have to be in the crust's spring, chewiness and (to a small degree) flavor.  I don't think some TV-show kitchen would be as rigid on the parameters as anyone here. 

It does seem to be an experiment worth trying, if anyone (points @ Pete-zza) is interested in volunteering their effort.

[TXCraig1]

I'm not too sure about that.  About the difference in taste? Yes, it's going to be negligible.  But I do think that different mineral concentrations in varying waters will impact such factors as yeast development, rise time and thus gluten development.  While I was a member of a breadmaking forum, one member from NM went through a tortuous process of trying to figure out why his dough did not rise.  Eventually, the problem was identified as lack of minerals in his RO drinking water supply.  Possibly an isolated, extreme case, but it still makes me think that some development interaction with yeast can be attributed to the chemical makeup of the water.

I could be wrong, and I stand to be corrected. Having said that is is VERY difficult for me to believe RO water was the actual cause of a rising problem. Lots of people, myself included, all the way up to Chris Bianco use RO water without any problem at all. Almost by definition that means IF RO water was a factor, it was not the sole factor responsible for the lack of rise and there had to be at least one other unknown factor, that is in play for almost nobody else, affecting that person.

When it comes to rise time, IF the type/mineral content of water does have an effect, it is so much less important than other factors such as the quantity and type of yeast introduced and the temperature, I just don't see how it could be meaningful.

CL

[PizzaEater101]

I'm not as advanced in pizza making as many of you are here and used to hear that water makes the difference in terms of pizza in NY being so good.  I used to believe it.  But now I'm not sure.   It could be or might not be.  But what pizzaneer makes sense too though about mineral content and how that could effect things.  The tap water in my city is pretty good and works for pizza just fine but I want to make pizza with different water brands and my city water as well and compare. I'm not making pizza any time soon but when I do I will compare. In other words I have no idea if it makes a difference but I would be inclined to think not but I'm open to test this out. I have to read all the old post and see what some say. 

[TXCraig1]

The tap water in my city is pretty good and works for pizza just fine but I want to make pizza with different water brands and my city water as well and compare. I'm not making pizza any time soon but when I do I will compare. In other words I have no idea if it makes a difference but I would be inclined to think not but I'm open to test this out.

Do you think you can measure your ingredients accurately enough, keep the fermentation temperature accurate enough, keep the oven and stone temperature accurate enough, etc. to test the effect of a difference as small as 180ppm (.0000018) in the water? You probably weigh your ingredients out with 0.1g resolution. Your resolution on temperature is probably +/- 5F - maybe a lot more than that. How would you rule out measurement or control error as the cause of any differences observed? Even if you could, how would you quantitatively measure the results?

My theory on why pizza is better in NYC is because there is a higher proportion of operators that know what they are doing in NYC. This is why I suggested that a focus on just about any other aspect of pizza making is more likely to improve your pizza than worrying about the water.

Here is another thought - bad pizza in NYC is no better than bad pizza anyplace else. Shouldn't it be if NYC water makes better pizza?

[pizzaneer]

Well, let's get right to the heart of it, and leave NY alone.  Does anyone have any data on Naples tap water - and their historical water sources?

I'm looking at salt percentages in the water as a factor.  That would be the calcium and magnesium.  There are other trace minerals, but in the amounts needed to affect yeast (ischia starter) retardation and development, I can't see them having an impact.

[Pete-zza]

Brian,

See Reply 7, including the last paragraph, at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3457.msg29422/topicseen.html#msg29422.

Peter