Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Yes, I think that Norma could use the KASL and possibly other high-gluten flours in the same protein range, or maybe even something closer to the Power flour protein content but with a lower hydration value. She has the advantage of having a deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas.

Hopefully before you are ready to make the next batch of dough we will get some guesses on which of the four Luigi clone dough formulations looks to be the closest to what is used in the Luigi video.

I have not worked in forensics before. I think it is all the experience with reverse engineering and cloning that is the explanation. However, there is one thing that I have not been able to figure out in the video. Maybe you can help me with it. Can you tell me what is in the nose of the young lady at 0:34 in the video? Maybe she got too close to her vegan pizza?

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

Yes, I think that Norma could use the KASL and possibly other high-gluten flours in the same protein range, or maybe even something closer to the Power flour protein content but with a lower hydration value. She has the advantage of having a deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas.

Hopefully before you are ready to make the next batch of dough we will get some guesses on which of the four Luigi clone dough formulations looks to be the closest to what is used in the Luigi video.

I have not worked in forensics before. I think it is all the experience with reverse engineering and cloning that is the explanation. However, there is one thing that I have not been able to figure out in the video. Maybe you can help me with it. Can you tell me what is in the nose of the young lady at 0:34 in the video? Maybe she got too close to her vegan pizza?

Peter

Peter,

I have edited my previous post and posted three formulas for the 25, 32 & 50 bags since I don't have any bleached flour except for the Harvest Bread which isn't a high-gluten.

That young lady is sporting a nose piercing of some sort.

Don't ask me what the hype is with body piercings but here in SF most Hipsters, alternative people and the guys in the Haight-Ashbury area sporting these, along with tattoos in excess. When she said "I like the vegan a lot..." that did it for me. 

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

When using IDY instead of ADY, you have to use different percents for the IDY.

For #1 Luigi (25 pound version), you want to use 0.56437% IDY. For #3 Luigi (32 pound version), you want to use 0.44092% IDY. And for #4 Luigi (50 pound version), you want to use 0.28219% IDY. If you re-do your numbers in the expanded dough calculating tool but with the above values for IDY, I think you should be OK.

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

When using IDY instead of ADY, you have to use different percents for the IDY.

For #1 Luigi (25 pound version), you want to use 0.56437% IDY. For #3 Luigi (32 pound version), you want to use 0.44092% IDY. And for #4 Luigi (50 pound version), you want to use 0.28219% IDY. If you re-do your numbers in the expanded dough calculating tool but with the above values for IDY, I think you should be OK.

Peter

Peter,

Excellent. Will modify and re-post. Thanks a bunch.

[Essen1]

There's one other thing that got me thinking and that's about his sauce composition. Right at the beginning the blonde lady says "The sauce is very sweet...".

I use 6 in 1's ground tomatoes for my sauces and they have a certain sweetness to them but I wouldn't say that without sugar and all the spices Luigi adds that the sauce would be "very sweet", especially when one considers the mingling of the sauce and cheese and toppings. So he must be adding some sugar to it, to perhaps make the sauce stand out, offset or balance out the saltiness of the mozzarella he uses, or both. But it is not shown in the video that he actually puts sugar in.

Also, given the fact that one picture on his website in the gallery shows Full Red Heavy Puree he might have switched over instead of using his ground tomatoes as Fieri mentions in the video. I'll see if I can get a can of Full Red from my pizza guy, just to compare.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I don't see the logic of intentionally omitting sugar in the video--and only sugar--if Luigi is actually using sugar in his sauce. The Stanislaus tomatoes are fresh-pack tomatoes that are naturally sweeter than most tomato products that you see out there, especially those made from concentrates, so it wouldn't surprise me that someone used to regular (non-fresh-pack) tomatoes that they might get at their local supermarket might find Luigi's sauce sweet. The only way to know what effect the herbs, grated cheese, etc., has on the sweetness of Luigi's sauce is to reverse engineer it to find the percents of those ingredients used.

I have learned to pretty much ignore terms like "sweet", "salty", "chewy", "crispy", "cracker-like", "thin", "thick", and so on. They mean different things to different people.

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

I don't see the logic of intentionally omitting sugar in the video--and only sugar--if Luigi is actually using sugar in his sauce. The Stanislaus tomatoes are fresh-pack tomatoes that are naturally sweeter than most tomato products that you see out there, especially those made from concentrates, so it wouldn't surprise me that someone used to regular (non-fresh-pack) tomatoes that they might get at their local supermarket might find Luigi's sauce sweet. The only way to know what effect the herbs, grated cheese, etc., has on the sweetness of Luigi's sauce is to reverse engineer it to find the percents of those ingredients used.

I have learned to pretty much ignore terms like "sweet", "salty", "chewy", "crispy", "cracker-like", "thin", "thick", and so on. They mean different things to different people.

Peter

Peter,

The reason I mentioned it was because Fieri mentions ground tomatoes when the video was taped, probably somewhere in late spring or summer 2008. The video, I believe, was posted on YouTube in Jan. 2010 so he might have switched from ground tomatoes to Heavy Puree from Stanislaus.

Regarding reverse engineering the sauce...well...I'm up for it. If we can get the sauce, too, we'd have the perfect clone. Except for the toppings and the amount of cheese, that is.

[norma427]

Assuming that what I did was correct or nearly so, does anyone want to venture to guess which Luigi clone dough formulation might have been used in the video? And why?


Peter

Peter,

Since you posted if someone wanted to venture a guess which formula might be the one Luigi is using, I would venture a guess of  #2 Luigi Clone Dough Formulation.  The reason I would guess #2,  is because the amount of ADY seems like the lowest value, for a smaller than 50 lb. bag of flour.  The other values for less than 50 lb. bags of flour seem to high to me.  Also the salt in #2 seems okay to me.  I know I am probably wrong, but am just guessing.  

I can’t believe you went to all the work you did today to get to where you are now in setting forth something to try.  

I probably will try a Luigi’s attempt at some point in time.  

Norma

[scott123]

With my next batch, I'll try a lower hydration, perhaps 62%, and see what happens.

I think it's going to be really difficult to precisely match the amount of kneading Luigi does with his Hobart with a home machine. Usually, the larger the mixer, the slower the rotation, the less agitation/gluten development, so you'll most likely want less than 15 minutes, but I really can't say how much less.

This being said, as I look at your 8 minute kneaded 65% dough, it's definitely striking me as being a bit on the slack side. Based upon those images and that knead time, I'm fully behind some 62% experimentation.

Peter, nice work on the formulas.

One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out. 

[Essen1]

I think it's going to be really difficult to precisely match the amount of kneading Luigi does with his Hobart with a home machine. Usually, the larger the mixer, the slower the rotation, the less agitation/gluten development, so you'll most likely want less than 15 minutes, but I really can't say how much less.

This being said, as I look at your 8 minute kneaded 65% dough, it's definitely striking me as being a bit on the slack side. Based upon those images and that knead time, I'm fully behind some 62% experimentation.

Peter, nice work on the formulas.

One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out. 

Scotty,

I have a Cuisinart SM-55 mixer with a rotating dial for Speed adjustments. I can go from extremely slow (Speed 1) to extremely fast (Speed 12). I normally choose the Speed 2 but my mixer is still no match for a Pro one. Eight minutes at Speed 2 at 62% hydration sounds about right to me, perhaps six minutes might do the trick, too.

[Essen1]

I probably will try a Luigi’s attempt at some point in time.  

Norma

Norma,

Seriously?? At some point??? 

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half? 

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   

[norma427]

Norma,

Seriously?? At some point??? 

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half? 

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   

Mike,

Lol, you sure made me chuckle!  To tell the truth, I don’t know how to use November’s tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try.    I don’t even know which formula to try either. 

I probably would only try one pie in my deck oven first.  My Kitchen Aid mixer can make decent dough.  I would like to see the results of one pie first, before I go about using a lot of flour or mixes of flour. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Since you posted if someone wanted to venture a guess which formula might be the one Luigi is using, I would venture a guess of  #2 Luigi Clone Dough Formulation.  The reason I would guess #2,  is because the amount of ADY seems like the lowest value, for a smaller than 50 lb. bag of flour.  The other values for less than 50 lb. bags of flour seem to high to me.  Also the salt in #2 seems okay to me.  I know I am probably wrong, but am just guessing.  

Norma,

I don't know at this point whether your guess is correct or not, but if you go back to Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150824.html#msg150824, you will see that I discussed the possibility of a dough doing double duty and being used to make either a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough (or even some combination of the two). You will also note that in Reply 33 I mentioned the possibility of using 0.70-0.80% ADY. That was before I did my latest weighings. That number is also in line with Luigi #1 (using 25 pounds of flour) as set forth in Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870. Also, the relatively high salt level of Luigi #1, 1.984%, would most likely result in a dough with a stronger gluten structure and be more amenable to handling without experiencing overextensibility or tearing problems. If Luigi intended for his dough to do double duty, then his terse response to Guy about fermentation would have been technically correct, even if he decided to use cold fermentation. This is, of course, only my speculation. However, you may recall from the Jet's thread that I once had a discussion with the manager of a Jet's Pizza store who told me that they made the dough early in the morning (most Jet's stores start the dough at around 9AM to be able to start making pizzas at noon) and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature, with any dough balls unused by the end of the day, or possibly even sooner based on actual demand, going into the cooler and being used the next day. The amount of yeast in the Jet's dough is quite high, in line with Luigi #1. Of course, Jet's doesn't have to worry about dough handling issues since the dough balls go into pans, not opened up by hand.

You might also recall that most of Peter Reinhart's doughs do double duty using the same quantity of yeast. Of course, most of his recipes are not intended for commercial production.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out.  

scott123,

I tend to agree with you. In fact, Gene (Jet_deck) reported at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151218.html#msg151218 that Luigi's is currently using 50-pound bags of flour. I think that one of the smaller bags of flour was used during the video shoot because it was convenient and easy to do. There would be no need to tear open a 50-pound bag and weigh out an amount of flour to use. If there was a commercial scale in Luigi's place capable of weighing out large quantities of flour, such as shown, for example, at 0:59 in the Lehmann-Zeak video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtiOxq73uM&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtiOxq73uM&amp;feature=related</a>

, I did not see it. No doubt, whatever mixer Luigi is now using can handle 50-pound bags of flour.

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

Lol, you sure made me chuckle!  To tell the truth, I don’t know how to use November’s tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try.    I don’t even know which formula to try either. 

I probably would only try one pie in my deck oven first.  My Kitchen Aid mixer can make decent dough.  I would like to see the results of one pie first, before I go about using a lot of flour or mixes of flour. 

Norma

Norma,

Glad you got a chuckle out of my plea 

Anyway, I made another batch last night, Luigi #1 formula, and will report back tonight on how it turned out.

[Jet_deck]

I have presented below the four Luigi clone dough formulations.

Peter, you are one in a zillion.  No man or machine can replace your intuition.  Hats off to you.

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

Thank you very much for the nice compliment. It must be the Sherlock Holmes in me.

Would you care to venture a guess on which of the four Luigi dough formulations might have come closest to the one used to do the Luigi shoot?

Peter

[Pete-zza]

To tell the truth, I don’t know how to use November’s tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try. 

Norma,

Whenever you are ready and know which flours you want to use and the amount of formula flour, I can help you with the calculations. In your case, you might want to use a combination of the KASL and KAAP since both are unbleached and unbromated.

Peter

[Essen1]

Quick assessment and impressions of the Pendleton Power Flour.

When I got the flour on Friday I was anxious to see how it holds up to a 65% hydration. Well, my initial reaction as you can see here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151818.html#msg151818  wasn't so great. The dough was very sticky and a little tough to work with.

However, that all changed completely when i took it out of the fridge last night, brought it up to room temp and worked with it. I can only say one thing...this is possibly the best flour I have worked with. GM's All Trumps can't hold a candle to the PPF, which is unbleached, unbromated, unmalted but enriched, whereas the 10 lbs of All Trumps I've worked with earlier this year was bromated, bleached and malted.

The feel when shaping it was an extremely smooth and silky feel and the skin was absolutely easy to open, no tearing whatsoever. A totally hassle-free experience. This flour is really a pleasure and now I know why my pizza guy said it's one of the best flours available in the industry.

Anyway, I made another batch last night, using Luigi's clone #1 formula http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151876.html#msg151876 with a 62% hydration instead of 65%.

The experience was unreal. This flour really shined with the 62% hydration. No stickiness, not hassle to work with, just pure pleasure. It might even be better at a 63% hydration. I followed Luigi's mixing procedure to the T except I mixed the dough only for 6 minutes. It didn't need more than that.

I can only advice to get your hands on this flour if you're into NY-style pizza. It's hands down the best I've experienced so far.

[Essen1]

And the 62% hydration dough...