Author Topic: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA  (Read 55650 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #200 on: September 04, 2011, 01:05:49 PM »
Peter, you are one in a zillion.  No man or machine can replace your intuition.  Hats off to you. :chef:

I second that!
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #201 on: September 04, 2011, 01:46:02 PM »
Regarding reverse engineering the sauce...well...I'm up for it. If we can get the sauce, too, we'd have the perfect clone. Except for the toppings and the amount of cheese, that is.


Mike,

Thank you also for the kind remarks. Now, back to the business at hand… ;D

I believe that the large sauce container shown in the Luigi video and also those shown in Reply 161 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151733.html#msg151733 are translucent Poly (polycarbonate) containers such as the 22-quart capacity storage container as shown at the Cambro website at http://cool.cambro.com/Poly_Rounds_Round_Storage_Containers_and_Lids_Storage.ashx. You will note that that container has a height of 15” and a top diameter of 14 7/8”. The Cambro website does not say whether the top diameter is with the lid on the container but, according to http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/Product_281739, a typical lid for a 22-quart storage container has a diameter of 14 7/8” That suggests that the storage container itself has a slightly smaller diameter. Maybe you can recalibrate your eyeballs to view the markings on the sauce containers and tell me if I found the right size container.

With respect to the types of Stanislaus tomatoes that Luigi used at the time of the video shoot, which was in the fall of 2008 (http://pizzerialuigi.com/about.html), I looked at the photos that Norma linked to at http://edwinreal.posterous.com/pizzeria-luigi-golden-hill, and the only photo I see of tomato cans is the one to the Stanislaus Full Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree. The photo is the first one in the next to the last row of photos. However, when I looked at the yelp photo at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw, which shows cans of the Stanislaus 7/11 Ground Tomatoes, I saw that the photo was uploaded to yelp on September 10, 2008. So, it looks like Luigi may have been using both kinds of tomatoes for his pizza sauce at the time of the video shoot.

According to Stanislaus, at http://www.stanislaus.com/, a #10 can of its tomatoes is a gallon. However, the weight of the contents depends on the type of tomato product in the can. For example, according to the nutrition data at the Stanislaus website, the contents of a #10 can of the Full Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree weighs, by my calculation, about 8.47 pounds. The corresponding number for the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes is about 8.82 pounds.

I am not a tomato expert, but to my way of thinking, a tomato puree is ground tomatoes. In the case of the Full Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree, the product is made without seeds or skins. Stanislaus says that the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes are made from chunky fresh-ground unpeeled tomatoes fresh-packed in combination with puree, and contains bits of skin and more tomato pectin (for a "homemade" texture). Not surprisingly, Stanislaus frowns upon its customers diluting their tomato products with water (they claim that the water dilutes the tomato flavor), preferring that they combine different ones of the Stanislaus tomato products, as many of their customers do. However, there are Stanislaus customers who do dilute Stanislaus tomato products with water (Jet’s Pizza in one such customer). I did not see anything in the Luigi video to suggest that he dilutes the tomatoes used to make his sauce. There is also nothing to suggest that Luigi is combining different Stanislaus tomato products.

Based on the photo that you provided in Reply 161 referenced above, showing all three containers with the same amount of sauce in them, I would say that the amounts shown may be the standard amounts. Quite possibly, four #10 cans of tomatoes are used in making the sauce shown in those containers.

Turning now to the ingredients added to the tomatoes to make the sauce, I believe that the bowls holding those ingredients may be the same type of bowls as were on the table next to the mixer, with the exception that the container holding the garlic powder, at 4:18, and the one holding the grated cheese, at 4:20, look to be larger or else they are distorted up-close camera shots. The bowls shown in the frame at 4:17 and the one for the basil at 4:22 seem to be alike. One with ample quantities of the various additions to the Stanislaus tomatoes to make the sauce would have to conduct some weighings or else just eyeball the amounts as shown in the video and scale down the total weight to correspond to the number of #10 cans (or smaller size) used to make a clone sauce for a home setting. For example, if four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes are used to make a standard sauce batch, one using one #10 can of tomatoes would divide the total weights of ingredients (red pepper flakes, Greek oregano, salt, pepper, granulated garlic, grated cheese and fresh basil) by four. For someone using a 28-ounce can of ground tomatoes, I think a divisor of about 20 should come pretty close.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 02:37:33 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #202 on: September 04, 2011, 02:19:05 PM »
Peter,

After recalibrating my eyeballs I took this screen shot of the large bucket and it shows what I believe the number 20 on it and another number above that but I can't make that out.

I assume it's the number 22. I think you're correct with your hunch that this is a 22 qt bucket. I also took a shot at the two different bowls sizes, the one for oregano, salt, black pepper, etc and the one for basil and garlic. The latter two seem larger.

I got to come up with some calculations regarding the different amounts for the sauce and would have to go with the 28 oz can measure because that's all I have at the moment.

I also noticed that the level of the sauce in the video is at or around the 15L/16qt mark.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 02:21:35 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #203 on: September 04, 2011, 05:09:25 PM »
Peter,

I have all the ingredients for Luigi's sauce but not in the quantities to measure them all out, especially the amounts of garlic and parmesan cheese, so I have to eyeball them. But it seems that the salt, pepper, oregano are the same amount, the red pepper flakes a tad smaller, the garlic double the amount of the salt, pepper and oregano and the parmesan probably double the amount of the garlic.

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

In grams that would be 794 gr for the can of tomatoes, 10 gr red pepper flakes, 15 gr for each, the salt, oregano and pepper, 22.5 gr for the garlic and 45 gr for the parmesan cheese. I'm still not sure about the basil, though. It could be somewhere in the realm of 30-40 gr, perhaps.

Do those quantities make any sense?
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #204 on: September 04, 2011, 07:07:45 PM »
Norma,

I don't know at this point whether your guess is correct or not, but if you go back to Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150824.html#msg150824, you will see that I discussed the possibility of a dough doing double duty and being used to make either a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough (or even some combination of the two). You will also note that in Reply 33 I mentioned the possibility of using 0.70-0.80% ADY. That was before I did my latest weighings. That number is also in line with Luigi #1 (using 25 pounds of flour) as set forth in Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870. Also, the relatively high salt level of Luigi #1, 1.984%, would most likely result in a dough with a stronger gluten structure and be more amenable to handling without experiencing overextensibility or tearing problems. If Luigi intended for his dough to do double duty, then his terse response to Guy about fermentation would have been technically correct, even if he decided to use cold fermentation. This is, of course, only my speculation. However, you may recall from the Jet's thread that I once had a discussion with the manager of a Jet's Pizza store who told me that they made the dough early in the morning (most Jet's stores start the dough at around 9AM to be able to start making pizzas at noon) and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature, with any dough balls unused by the end of the day, or possibly even sooner based on actual demand, going into the cooler and being used the next day. The amount of yeast in the Jet's dough is quite high, in line with Luigi #1. Of course, Jet's doesn't have to worry about dough handling issues since the dough balls go into pans, not opened up by hand.

You might also recall that most of Peter Reinhart's doughs do double duty using the same quantity of yeast. Of course, most of his recipes are not intended for commercial production.

Peter



Norma,

Whenever you are ready and know which flours you want to use and the amount of formula flour, I can help you with the calculations. In your case, you might want to use a combination of the KASL and KAAP since both are unbleached and unbromated.

Peter


Peter,

I remember when you discussed the possibility of a dough doing double duty and being used to make either a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough, and even maybe a combination of both.

I can understand the higher amount of salt in Luigi’s #1 would most likely result in a a stronger gluten structure.  I do recall about your discussion with the manager of Jet’s Pizza store, who told you that they make their dough early in the morning and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature, and possibly some going into the cooler for later or the next day.  I do also remember how high the amount of ADY in Jet’s dough was.

I am not sure when I will be ready to try one of the formulas you set-forth, but it will probably be next week.  I appreciate you will help me with the calculations for the two kinds of flours.  Which formula do you think I should try?

Norma

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #205 on: September 04, 2011, 08:46:31 PM »
Hi Mike,

When you posted:

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

I cannot help but think that for 28 oz can,thats seems very heavy on spices.

I know you guys are working on cloning,but wow,that would seem to overpower my taste buds in those amounts.

Let me know if you try it though.If its good I might try it myself,but hard to imagine its not going to lose its tomato taste in the end.
 :)








-Bill

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #206 on: September 04, 2011, 09:04:24 PM »
I have all the ingredients for Luigi's sauce but not in the quantities to measure them all out, especially the amounts of garlic and parmesan cheese, so I have to eyeball them. But it seems that the salt, pepper, oregano are the same amount, the red pepper flakes a tad smaller, the garlic double the amount of the salt, pepper and oregano and the parmesan probably double the amount of the garlic.

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

In grams that would be 794 gr for the can of tomatoes, 10 gr red pepper flakes, 15 gr for each, the salt, oregano and pepper, 22.5 gr for the garlic and 45 gr for the parmesan cheese. I'm still not sure about the basil, though. It could be somewhere in the realm of 30-40 gr, perhaps.

Do those quantities make any sense?


Mike,

If I understand your approach, I am not sure it will work since equal amounts of different ingredients by volume do not weigh the same.

Like you, I have some of the ingredients but not all of them in the amounts suggested in the Luigi video. However, I will see what I can come up with based on what I see in the video.

An alternative approach is to estimate the amounts of ingredients by volume, for example, by number of teaspoons or tablespoons, and then use standard conversion data to convert to weights. I usually go to the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ for standard conversion data. I checked the Luigi sauce ingredients against the data available at the nutritiondata.self.com website and found the following conversion data:

Dried oregano, leaves: 1 t. = 1 gram
Salt: 1 t. = 6 grams; 1 T. = 18 grams
Black pepper: 1 t. = 2 grams; 1 T. = 6 grams
Garlic powder: 1 t. = 3 grams; 1 T. = 8 grams
Fresh basil, chopped: 2 T. = 5 grams

For the red pepper flakes, I would use the McCormick number of 1 t. = 3.2 grams. For the grated Parmesan cheese, I would use a basic product like the Kraft grated parmesan cheese, where 2 t. = 5 grams. I would imagine that Luigi does not use an expensive Parmesan cheese and grate it himself. He is more likely to use a commercial product like the Kraft product (foodservice version).

Of course, you can do your own measurements of teaspoons or tablespoons of the above ingredients using your scale and extrapolate based on eyeballing the amount of each ingredient. When you get the total weight for each ingredient as you believe Luigi uses, you will want to divide that number by about 20 to get the amount to use with a 28-ounce can of tomatoes.

I will try to do my own weighings and conversions tomorrow.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #207 on: September 04, 2011, 09:07:12 PM »
I am not sure when I will be ready to try one of the formulas you set-forth, but it will probably be next week.  I appreciate you will help me with the calculations for the two kinds of flours.  Which formula do you think I should try?

Norma,

I think I would go with Luigi #1, which I believe Mike will also be trying. That might be a good test of the recipe used in both a home setting and a commercial setting. However, you should feel free to try another version if you'd like.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #208 on: September 04, 2011, 09:08:36 PM »
Hi Mike,

When you posted:

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

I cannot help but think that for 28 oz can,thats seems very heavy on spices.

I know you guys are working on cloning,but wow,that would seem to overpower my taste buds in those amounts.

Let me know if you try it though.If its good I might try it myself,but hard to imagine its not going to lose its tomato taste in the end.
 :)


Bill,

You're right.

After looking at the numbers again I decided to use two 28oz 6 in 1 cans, one pureed down a bit and the other left untouched. I haven't had the chance to update my previous post yet.

Sauce tastes great, though. I'll post the numbers for the sauce a bit later on.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #209 on: September 04, 2011, 09:14:16 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with Luigi #1, which I believe Mike will also be trying. That might be a good test of the recipe used in both a home setting and a commercial setting. However, you should feel free to try another version if you'd like.

Peter

Peter,

That's what will come out of the fridge in about an hour  ;D

Btw, when looking at the video again I zeroed in on the clock. Luigi's made the dough first at 10:25am, then the sauce at 10:50am and Fieri bit into his first slice, the Capone (Meat Lover's) at 12:20pm. The funny thing is that the clock shows 12:10pm when he has a slice of second pie, the Mona Lisa. Oh, and the spinach/ricotta pie was eaten at 12:15pm. That's three pies in a span of ten minutes.

I have serious doubts that they used the same dough they made that morning. That one might have been balled up and went into the cooler.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 09:17:49 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #210 on: September 04, 2011, 09:27:13 PM »
Mike,

If I understand your approach, I am not sure it will work since equal amounts of different ingredients by volume do not weigh the same.

Like you, I have some of the ingredients but not all of them in the amounts suggested in the Luigi video. However, I will see what I can come up with based on what I see in the video.

An alternative approach is to estimate the amounts of ingredients by volume, for example, by number of teaspoons or tablespoons, and then use standard conversion data to convert to weights. I usually go to the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ for standard conversion data. I checked the Luigi sauce ingredients against the data available at the nutritiondata.self.com website and found the following conversion data:

Dried oregano, leaves: 1 t. = 1 gram
Salt: 1 t. = 6 grams; 1 T. = 18 grams
Black pepper: 1 t. = 2 grams; 1 T. = 6 grams
Garlic powder: 1 t. = 3 grams; 1 T. = 8 grams
Fresh basil, chopped: 2 T. = 5 grams

For the red pepper flakes, I would use the McCormick number of 1 t. = 3.2 grams. For the grated Parmesan cheese, I would use a basic product like the Kraft grated parmesan cheese, where 2 t. = 5 grams. I would imagine that Luigi does not use an expensive Parmesan cheese and grate it himself. He is more likely to use a commercial product like the Kraft product (foodservice version).

Of course, you can do your own measurements of teaspoons or tablespoons of the above ingredients using your scale and extrapolate based on eyeballing the amount of each ingredient. When you get the total weight for each ingredient as you believe Luigi uses, you will want to divide that number by about 20 to get the amount to use with a 28-ounce can of tomatoes.

I will try to do my own weighings and conversions tomorrow.

Peter


Peter, I didn't even see your post when I answered Bill.  :-[

What I did initially was to convert the 28 oz can into grams, which came to 794 gr per can. Then I looked at my numbers and thought that they were a bit high for only one can, which Bill also pointed out. So I ran them for two cans and the numbers looked much better, especially when stronger herbs/spices are involved such as the dried oregano, black pepper and the red pepper flakes.

Better safe than sorry since I've butchered a good amount of sauces so far  :)
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #211 on: September 04, 2011, 10:04:30 PM »
Mike,

If I understand your approach, I am not sure it will work since equal amounts of different ingredients by volume do not weigh the same.

Like you, I have some of the ingredients but not all of them in the amounts suggested in the Luigi video. However, I will see what I can come up with based on what I see in the video.

An alternative approach is to estimate the amounts of ingredients by volume, for example, by number of teaspoons or tablespoons, and then use standard conversion data to convert to weights. I usually go to the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ for standard conversion data. I checked the Luigi sauce ingredients against the data available at the nutritiondata.self.com website and found the following conversion data:

Dried oregano, leaves: 1 t. = 1 gram
Salt: 1 t. = 6 grams; 1 T. = 18 grams
Black pepper: 1 t. = 2 grams; 1 T. = 6 grams
Garlic powder: 1 t. = 3 grams; 1 T. = 8 grams
Fresh basil, chopped: 2 T. = 5 grams

For the red pepper flakes, I would use the McCormick number of 1 t. = 3.2 grams. For the grated Parmesan cheese, I would use a basic product like the Kraft grated parmesan cheese, where 2 t. = 5 grams. I would imagine that Luigi does not use an expensive Parmesan cheese and grate it himself. He is more likely to use a commercial product like the Kraft product (foodservice version).

Of course, you can do your own measurements of teaspoons or tablespoons of the above ingredients using your scale and extrapolate based on eyeballing the amount of each ingredient. When you get the total weight for each ingredient as you believe Luigi uses, you will want to divide that number by about 20 to get the amount to use with a 28-ounce can of tomatoes.

I will try to do my own weighings and conversions tomorrow.

Peter


Peter,

After looking at your numbers, I will definitely adjust mine with the next batch of sauce I make. Let me know about your findings when you use the measurements you put forth.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #212 on: September 04, 2011, 10:11:04 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with Luigi #1, which I believe Mike will also be trying. That might be a good test of the recipe used in both a home setting and a commercial setting. However, you should feel free to try another version if you'd like.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to try Luigi #1.

Norma

Peter,

That's what will come out of the fridge in about an hour  ;D



Mike,

I look forward to seeing your pie!  :)

If anyone wants me to do any weights for added ingredients for sauce tomorrow, let me know.  I have all the ingredients at market.

Norma

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #213 on: September 04, 2011, 10:24:40 PM »

Mike,

I look forward to seeing your pie!  :)

If anyone wants me to do any weights for added ingredients for sauce tomorrow, let me know.  I have all the ingredients at market.

Norma


Norma,

Oven's heating and I'll be making the spinach/ricotta for my mother. She came by earlier and I told her about the project and she said that it looks like I need a taste tester tonight  :) Very smooth. I might also add some sun dried tomatoes and black olives to it, though.

I think you taking some weight measurements can only benefit the cloning process. Let us know what you'll find. I'm sure Peter will give you adequate weight measurements.

He's much better of converting numbers and taking into account different weights of certain herbs and spices than I am as is shown in his previous post above.

My next thing, once we get the sauce out of the way, is the cheese amount. I used the slo-mo feature again and it appears that Luigi is dumping one of those generic 16oz, supermarket-style mozzarella blocks into his grater. You know those blocks, such as the ones from the Precious brand, for example.

Let's see if I can get a still picture of it...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 10:28:16 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #214 on: September 04, 2011, 10:35:08 PM »
Some screen shots of the cheese grating...

It's most likely a GENSACO cheese grater. 

http://www.gensaco.com/graters.html

Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #215 on: September 04, 2011, 10:52:14 PM »
Some screen shots of the cheese grating...

It's most likely a GENSACO cheese grater. 

http://www.gensaco.com/graters.html




Mike,

I wonder if Luigi's uses a Pelican Head to grate his cheese, since he does have a Hobart mixer.  I have a Pelican Head for my Hobart and it does grate cheese fast.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #216 on: September 05, 2011, 12:46:29 AM »
Mike,

I wonder if Luigi's uses a Pelican Head to grate his cheese, since he does have a Hobart mixer.  I have a Pelican Head for my Hobart and it does grate cheese fast.

Norma

Norma,

I don't know.

I'm not that familiar with commercial graters. I have an old box grater that I use but it produces fairly large strands of cheese which I like.
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #217 on: September 05, 2011, 12:50:41 AM »
Okay,

First pics and a short video of the Luigi clone Spinach/Ricotta with some added sun dried tomatoes black olives. The only negative thing was that I had to use the broiler for 30 secs to get some browning going after 7 minutes on the stone. I might adjust the sugar amount or let the flour mature a bit more.

Temp was around 615°F give or take a few.

A video which features my mother can be seen here:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q399eej54jI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q399eej54jI</a>


« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 12:53:25 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #218 on: September 05, 2011, 01:24:13 AM »
Mike,

I wonder if Luigi's uses a Pelican Head to grate his cheese, since he does have a Hobart mixer.  I have a Pelican Head for my Hobart and it does grate cheese fast.

Norma

Norma,

You mean this one?

Can't be the same model, just like the one I posted earlier can't be the same, too. The holding compartment has two slated edges to it. They tilt down a bit...so I don't know what kind of shredder that is.

Maybe someone with pro experience can chime in here and has seen this type of shredder before..
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 01:29:16 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline scott123

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #219 on: September 05, 2011, 01:29:30 AM »
Norma,

Seriously?? At some point???  :(

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half?  ::)

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   :)

Mike, while I'm absolutely certain that Norma's foray into reverse engineering Luigi's pizza will prove to be immensely valuable, if you want to compare potential labor, I think it will be a lot more difficult for her to achieve pendleton-like results with KASL (or track down pendleton) then it would be for you to track down the necessary materials to match her bake time.

That 62% hydration dough is Luigi's dough.  There's no doubt in my mind. The last ingredient that you're missing- both for this and for your Avellino's clone is that sacred 4-5 minute bake.

17 x 17 x 1/2" steel plate. Your oven shelf will handle it. Cordierite has almost no porosity, so the lack of porosity with steel will be meaningless. I can show you countless photos of steel baked pizzas with identical bottoms as their cordierite cousins.  4-5 minutes on steel will match Luigi's (and Avellino's) 4-5 minute bake exactly. The pizzas will be identical (and the best you've ever had). You have my word  ;D