Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Jet_deck]

Norma, that looks like a pizza slice that I would love to eat.   

[Essen1]

Norma,

Excellent stuff and that's a great looking pie!

The Power flour does provide great texture, structure and crunch but lacks in the browning department compared to what we've seen in the Luigi video. I don't know why that is but my hunch is that Diners & Drives may have left out some crucial info, especially when I tested the same dough in my pizza guy's oven, which runs at the same temps Luigi claims to run his at.

If Luigi really uses only a 24 hr cold fermentation and the PPF, I don't think there's a chance that he can get his pies looking like they did in the video. In other words, something's amiss here. I think we need to take another look at the formula...

I'll look through some of my older posts where I had the same problems with browning just to see what can be done. I hope that Peter might come up with an ingenious suggestion in the meantime  

My bet is to increase the sugar amount but that might not always be the cure.

[norma427]

Norma, that looks like a pizza slice that I would love to eat.  

Gene,

Thanks for saying that is a pizza slice that you would love to eat.   The Luigi's clone attempt in the taste of the pizza went well.  The color of the bottom crust, I am not too sure about.  I didn't even get to try a second slice.    

Thanks for your help in this thread!  

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Excellent stuff and that's a great looking pie!

The Power flour does provide great texture, structure and crunch but lacks in the browning department compared to what we've seen in the Luigi video. I don't know why that is but my hunch is that Diners & Drives may have left out some crucial info, especially when I tested the same dough in my pizza guy's oven, which runs at the same temps Luigi claims to run his at.

If Luigi really uses only a 24 hr cold fermentation and the PPF, I don't think there's a chance that he can get his pies looking like they did in the video. In other words, something's amiss here. I think we need to take another look at the formula...

I'll look through some of my older posts where I had the same problems with browning just to see what can be done. I hope that Peter might come up with an ingenious suggestion in the meantime  

My bet is to increase the sugar amount but that might not always be the cure.

Mike,

Thanks for you kind comments! 

I think the Power flour produced a dough that had a good balance between extensibility and elasticity.  The dough had some bubbles in the dough when stretching the skin and it also felt just about right.  The crunch in the final pizza seemed good to me.  I don’t run my deck oven as high as Luigi’s does, and don’t know if that would have made the crust color better or not.  I tried to follow all the directions carefully, but can’t up my oven temperature just to test one pie when I am trying to make regular pizzas. 

I know you also had problems with the browning issues and don’t know if we can solve that or not.  Maybe an increase in the sugar can solve those problems.

I wanted to ask you a question as whether your flour had the same clumps in the flour?  I did give some Power flour to Steve yesterday, and showed him how the Power flour didn’t seem to be silky.  The other flour Alex sent me the sample of wasn’t like that. I don’t know if my Power flour is older or might have picked up some moisture. Steve said maybe I should have sifted the flour, but I told him I wanted to try it out the way it was sent to me.  I know by sifting flour, it can sometimes can absorb more water, but that didn’t seem to be a problem of the Power Flour and absorbing water, in the Luigi's clone attempt.  That part went well.

I wish I could purchase the Power flour in my area.  You are lucky to have access to Power Flour.    So far I really like the Power flour.

Norma 

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

The Luigi clone dough formulation and related instructions I gave to Norma were calculated to see if she could coax enough sugar out of the dough over only a one-day cold ferment to provide more crust color. I was also concerned about her oven and its impact on crust coloration because I knew that she could not use it just for the Luigi clone, at least not on the day that she makes her regular pizza at market.

After seeing Norma's results using her deck oven to make Luigi clones, my first instinct is to increase the amount of sugar, especially in your case where you are using a standard home oven. By contrast, Norma perhaps still has the option of increasing the bake time with her deck oven, using the lower oven temperature, even if it means having to use a pizza screen to keep the bottom of the crust from burning while the top of the crust gets more browning.

You might recall that in the Luigi video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc</a>

about the only dough ingredient that we could not find in a small bowl, even after all of the slicing and dicing of the video, was the sugar. Luigi only said that he used a "little" sugar. What he showed going into the mixer bowl looked to be more than just a "little" sugar but there was no way of knowing for sure. Maybe the part of the video that dealt with the sugar in more detail ended up on the cutting room floor. When I looked at the video again today after not having seen it in some time, I thought that the video was a real mess production-wise.

In your case, you might increase the amount of sugar (table sugar). A good starting point might be to use 2% to see if that results in improved crust color. The yeast can only consume simple sugars, which means that table sugar, which is a disaccharide, has to be converted to simple sugars (fructose and glucose) before the yeast can feed off of them. That conversion can take some time but hopefully should allow enough residual sugar at the time of baking (about a day later) to give more color. If that doesn't work, or work sufficiently, then it might mean having to lower the amount of yeast the next time so that the yeast doesn't consume too much of the table sugar (the simple sugars) and rely more on the simple sugars extracted from the starch in the flour by enzyme performance. At 2% sugar, you should not detect it as sweetness in the finished crust and it should not materially result in a more tender crust (although that might be a beneficial side effect in a very thin crust). So, the sugar's main function is to provide more crust color.

Norma might also try using more sugar, even if she decides to use her normal oven temperature--the one she uses to make her regular preferment Lehmann dough. Otherwise, she might just try a longer bake and closely monitor the bottom crust browning. She might even be able to make two pizzas for comparison purposes, one with sugar and one without.

Peter

[Essen1]

I wanted to ask you a question as whether your flour had the same clumps in the flour? 

Norma,

Mine didn't have any lumps in it at all. My hunch is that the sample you got is either an older one or it got wet at some point. I'd just sift the lumps out. But I'm glad you like the flour so far. I love that stuff 

[Essen1]

Mike,

The Luigi clone dough formulation and related instructions I gave to Norma were calculated to see if she could coax enough sugar out of the dough over only a one-day cold ferment to provide more crust color. I was also concerned about her oven and its impact on crust coloration because I knew that she could not use it just for the Luigi clone, at least not on the day that she makes her regular pizza at market.

After seeing Norma's results using her deck oven to make Luigi clones, my first instinct is to increase the amount of sugar, especially in your case where you are using a standard home oven. By contrast, Norma perhaps still has the option of increasing the bake time with her deck oven, using the lower oven temperature, even if it means having to use a pizza screen to keep the bottom of the crust from burning while the top of the crust gets more browning.

You might recall that in the Luigi video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc about the only dough ingredient that we could not find in a small bowl, even after all of the slicing and dicing of the video, was the sugar. Luigi only said that he used a "little" sugar. What he showed going into the mixer bowl looked to be more than just a "little" sugar but there was no way of knowing for sure. Maybe the part of the video that dealt with the sugar in more detail ended up on the cutting room floor. When I looked at the video again today after not having seen it in some time, I thought that the video was a real mess production-wise.

In your case, you might increase the amount of sugar (table sugar). A good starting point might be to use 2% to see if that results in improved crust color. The yeast can only consume simple sugars, which means that table sugar, which is a disaccharide, has to be converted to simple sugars (fructose and glucose) before the yeast can feed off of them. That conversion can take some time but hopefully should allow enough residual sugar at the time of baking (about a day later) to give more color. If that doesn't work, or work sufficiently, then it might mean having to lower the amount of yeast the next time so that the yeast doesn't consume too much of the table sugar (the simple sugars) and rely more on the simple sugars extracted from the starch in the flour by enzyme performance. At 2% sugar, you should not detect it as sweetness in the finished crust and it should not materially result in a more tender crust (although that might be a beneficial side effect in a very thin crust). So, the sugar's main function is to provide more crust color.

Norma might also try using more sugar, even if she decides to use her normal oven temperature--the one she uses to make her regular preferment Lehmann dough. Otherwise, she might just try a longer bake and closely monitor the bottom crust browning. She might even be able to make two pizzas for comparison purposes, one with sugar and one without.

Peter

Peter,

That makes sense.

However, I have tried the clones a few times now and the outcome was mostly the same regardless of the hearth I used (steel or stone). I'll give the 2% sugar a shot and see what happens, probably over the weekend.

I still think that something's missing in the video or at the very least, the entire dough info is somewhat blurry. I agree with you that some info could have ended up not being used.

[norma427]

Norma might also try using more sugar, even if she decides to use her normal oven temperature--the one she uses to make her regular preferment Lehmann dough. Otherwise, she might just try a longer bake and closely monitor the bottom crust browning. She might even be able to make two pizzas for comparison purposes, one with sugar and one without.

Peter

Peter,

I will do both experiments next week.  Do you suggest I also try 2% sugar in the formula for the one experiment like Mike is going to try? 

I also wonder what might have been cut out of the video, as Mike and you suggested.

Since I never have tasted a real Luigi's pie, I still don't know if any of mine are like the real Luigi's pizza, but I would sell a pie like the one I made yesterday.  It was really good.    Thanks, for setting-forth the formula and methods to try. 

I thought I had taken a picture of the top of the dough ball right before I opened it, but somehow i didn't.  The top of the dough ball did start to have a bubble forming on it.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Mine didn't have any lumps in it at all. My hunch is that the sample you got is either an older one or it got wet at some point. I'd just sift the lumps out. But I'm glad you like the flour so far. I love that stuff 

Mike,

Thanks for telling me your Power Flour didn't have any lumps in it.  You are probably right that my sample was probably older or had moisture at some point.  I will sift the flour the next time I use it.  I didn't think the Power flour should have looked clumpy.

Good luck with your next Luigi's attempt! 

Norma

[scott123]

Additional sugar might give you the browning you're looking for, but so might a lower hydration.  I'm still not giving up on the idea that Luigi's might be working with 63% hydration.

The benefit of lowering the water vs. increasing the sugar is additional crispiness.

[Pete-zza]

I will do both experiments next week.  Do you suggest I also try 2% sugar in the formula for the one experiment like Mike is going to try? 

Norma,

Yes, I think that 2% sugar should be a good starting point. It is always difficult when you are trying a new pizza dough to get it just right when baked in a given oven. If you had a pizzeria and made hundreds of pizzas over the course of a week, as I imagine Luigi does, you would eventually become an expert in both making the dough and pizzas and finding the best bake protocol for your given oven. I would imagine you discovered that with your preferment Lehmann dough even though you only use it one day a week at market.

Peter

[norma427]

Additional sugar might give you the browning you're looking for, but so might a lower hydration.  I'm still not giving up on the idea that Luigi's might be working with 63% hydration.

The benefit of lowering the water vs. increasing the sugar is additional crispiness.

Scott,

You might be right about the lowering the water vs. increasing the sugar for additional crispness.   There is lot to think about when formulating any formula.  The crispness on the attempt I did yesterday seemed okay to the taste testers and me, but I am not sure how a real Luigi's pie is when eaten fresh out of his oven.  Only someone that has eaten a fresh pie from Luigi's would know that.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Yes, I think that 2% sugar should be a good starting point. It is always difficult when you are trying a new pizza dough to get it just right when baked in a given oven. If you had a pizzeria and made hundreds of pizzas over the course of a week, as I imagine Luigi does, you would eventually become an expert in both making the dough and pizzas and finding the best bake protocol for your given oven. I would imagine you discovered that with your preferment Lehmann dough even though you only use it one day a week at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me 2% sugar would be a good staring point to try for better crust coloration.

Luigi did work for Bronx and other pizzerias before, so he would know much more than I do about dough making, formulations, fermentation, (and what works and doesn‘t work) and finding the best bake protocol for a given oven. 

I know I have tried many experiments in the deck oven and at home.  Each one has its own set of challenges.  It did take me a long while to eventually get my preferment Lehmann dough to where the fermentation of the preferment, bake temperatures, water temperatures, and everything else fit together.  At least that is behind me now. 

Norma

[Essen1]

Mike,

Thanks for telling me your Power Flour didn't have any lumps in it.  You are probably right that my sample was probably older or had moisture at some point.  I will sift the flour the next time I use it.  I didn't think the Power flour should have looked clumpy.

Good luck with your next Luigi's attempt! 

Norma

Norma,

If the guy you got the Power Flour from has one bag, he most likely will have access to more.

Ask him for a fresh one, ideally a 50lb bag. I know that Pendleton has milling facilities in Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama (Milner Milling) if I'm not mistaken, which should serve the broader East Coast.

Maybe mention Milner Milling's Power flour and see what he says.

Thanks for the good luck wishes. . I'll report back on that one.

[norma427]

Norma,

If the guy you got the Power Flour from has one bag, he most likely will have access to more.

Ask him for a fresh one, ideally a 50lb bag. I know that Pendleton has milling facilities in Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama (Milner Milling) if I'm not mistaken, which should serve the broader East Coast.

Maybe mention Milner Milling's Power flour and see what he says.

Thanks for the good luck wishes. . I'll report back on that one.

Mike,

Alex is the person that answered me back from PFM.  He was trying to find me a distributor in my area, but just sent me a sample to try.  I did call all my local distributors, even Sysco (Alex said Sysco does carry Power Flour), and none of them carry the Power Flour in my area.  I am not sure about the Phila. area, but that is too far for me to go to buy a 50 lb. bag of Power Flour.  I can’t ask Alex for a 50 lb. bag for a sample.    I was lucky I did get the sample to try.

Thanks for you help in trying to find me 50 lb. bags of Power Flour. 

Norma

[PizzaEater101]

Question about the sauce.  I have been following this thread but may have missed something.  I think Mike (Essen) added some water to the sauce he was making, maybe to make it thinner but that was early on in this reverse engineering project.  Could someone tell me water should still be added?  I read Peter's sauce post here and did not see any water added but I might have missed later on if it should be added and there are so many post here it's hard for me to find.  Thanks much.