Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA

[norma427]

Question about the sauce.  I have been following this thread but may have missed something.  I think Mike (Essen) added some water to the sauce he was making, maybe to make it thinner but that was early on in this reverse engineering project.  Could someone tell me water should still be added?  I read Peter's sauce post here and did not see any water added but I might have missed later on if it should be added and there are so many post here it's hard for me to find.  Thanks much.

James,

If you are looking where Peter posted the amounts of ingredients to add to the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes, I they are at 
Reply 228
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152091.html#msg152091

Peter converted ingredients to volume measurements.
Reply 437 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153861.html#msg153861

Where Mike made the sauce with the amounts of ingredients at Reply 322
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152728.html#msg152728
After Mike gave the thumbs up to Peter he made this post.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153103.html#msg153103

Where Peter mentions about the possibility of Luigi thinning the sauce is at Reply 342
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152873.html#msg152873

Where Mike posted he used at Reply 504
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg154647.html#msg154647

Gene posted where is added water to Full Red with the ingredients at Reply 514
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg155469.html#msg155469

Norma

[PizzaEater101]

Norma, thank you so much for the links to the sauce posts.  I didn't use 7/11 or 6 in 1 tomatoes or Full Red but used Classico Crushed Tomato in Puree.  It turned out a bit thick so after reading Gene's post I decided to add some water to thin it down some.  It taste very good.  I have to re-read the post carefully when I make sauce next time just so I understand it fully.  Not sure how good of job I did this time but it's good nevertheless.

As Peter mentions in his post there is nothing in the video showing that Luigi thins out his sauce but from eating there last Summer it seemed the sauce is fairly thin.  It is possible that they just didn't show that part of the process of making the sauce.  Maybe Luigi didn't want the whole cat out of the bag if you get what I am saying. 

[scottserena]

Got my 25# bag of Power Flour last night!

The attached picture is of the below recipe with the sugar at 2% and the ball of the left at 63% hydration and the one on the right a 65%. Neither were sticky at the least and least almost 0% bowl residual. I will be baking tomorrow after a 24 hours cold ferment
It is amazing that is flour can adsorb 65% so easily without being sticky and slack. It is like it is begging for more water.

Question: I used IDY, instead of ADY and reduced the amount by 25%, does that sound about right?

Norma,

Since Jet_deck (Gene) informed us at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151218/topicseen.html#msg151218 that Luigi's cold ferments its dough for 24 hours, I'd like to see you attempt a 24-hour cold fermented Luigi's clone dough. For this purpose, I would use the Luigi #1 clone dough formulation as set forth at Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 but modified to reduce the amount of yeast to a value that I believe should work for a one-day cold fermented dough in your part of Pennsylvania this time of year. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what I get:

Luigi One-Day Cold Fermentation Clone Dough Formulation (Modified #1 Luigi)

Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%): Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%): ADY (0.55%): Salt (1.984%): Sugar (0.22928%): Total (167.76328%):

308.74 g  |  10.89 oz | 0.68 lbs 200.68 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs 1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 6.13 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 0.71 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Dough is for a single 18" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation, I would like you to try to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. Also, before refrigerating, I suggest that you let the dough rest for about 20-30 minutes. That period would be about what it might take workers at Luigi's to take a large dough batch and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls before putting them into the cooler. The rest period should also enable the dough ball to get some fermentation going before refrigerating. The objective is to get sufficient fermentation and to have an amount of sugar (residual sugar) left over beyond what the yeast needs as food to be available at the time of baking for final crust coloration. You will have to monitor the temper time at market to be sure that the dough isn't either underproofed or overproofed.

In the above formulation, the salt is regular table salt, which is what I assumed when I came up with the original Luigi clone dough formulations. If you prefer to use Kosher salt, then you may have to redo the above dough formulation to use the Kosher salt.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma, thank you so much for the links to the sauce posts.  I didn't use 7/11 or 6 in 1 tomatoes or Full Red but used Classico Crushed Tomato in Puree.  It turned out a bit thick so after reading Gene's post I decided to add some water to thin it down some.  It taste very good.  I have to re-read the post carefully when I make sauce next time just so I understand it fully.  Not sure how good of job I did this time but it's good nevertheless.

As Peter mentions in his post there is nothing in the video showing that Luigi thins out his sauce but from eating there last Summer it seemed the sauce is fairly thin.  It is possible that they just didn't show that part of the process of making the sauce.  Maybe Luigi didn't want the whole cat out of the bag if you get what I am saying. 

James,

The Classico Crushed Tomatoes should make a good sauce, with the added ingredients Peter figured out.  There is always the option of thinning the sauce down like you did.  Each person has their own preferences for how they like their sauces for pizza.  Since you did eat pizza at Luigi’s, you should know how their sauce looked on their pizzas.  Other members on this thread think everything wasn’t on the DDD video at Luigi‘s.  I also agree.

Norma

[PizzaEater101]

James,

The Classico Crushed Tomatoes should make a good sauce, with the added ingredients Peter figured out.  There is always the option of thinning the sauce down like you did.  Each person has their own preferences for how they like their sauces for pizza.  Since you did eat pizza at Luigi’s, you should know how their sauce looked on their pizzas.  Other members on this thread think everything wasn’t on the DDD video at Luigi‘s.  I also agree.

Norma

Hi Norma, I followed Peter's formula that he posted here with the added ingredients that he figured out, I did it for a 28 oz can of Classico Crushed Tomatoes.   I wanted to thin it out a bit so what I did was I added water but instead of by weight I just added by volume.  I added tablespoon by tablespoon until I felt the consistency was how I preferred it.  After 10 tablespoons it was really right for my preference.  I could have added a couple more for a total of 12 and I think it would have turned out just fine too but 10 tablespoons of water for the 28 oz of sauce was perfect for me.  In the past I have tried to water down sauce and put too much water and ruined it.  This time I did it right.

San Diego might be only a two hour drive without traffic but in the case when I went in summer it took maybe 3 hours or more to get there due to traffic but I don't go there much.  I will go next summer and try out Luigi again.  When I tried it it seemed that the sauce was fairly thin.

By the way my wife's brother had a party for his 2 year old.  He had the idea to bring his propane grill to the rec center in the park near his home and do a pizza party.  He had a bunch of ingredients and he bought dough from an Italian restaurant.  He had an assembly line to make pizza, or have the kids and adults make pizza.  Understandable the party goers have no experience with pizza making so not one person made a good pizza.  Since I have years of experience and learned a lot here at the forum I decided to bring my own stuff and make pizza.  I used a formulation from this discussion, the one similar to the one you used in your latest effort, I used my own sauce that I made from the Classico too.  Even tho my finger is still messed up and not healed yet I am finding that I can work around my finger.  The grill had only enough real estate to make a 12 inch, not a real NY 18 incher but for what it was the pizza turned out great.  Due to lack of a perfect baking setup the top did not get as done as I would like but I can say with the dough formulation that you guys figured out and the sauce it did turn out excellent.  I wish I had pics but I don't.  Forgot the camera but maybe someone at the party had taken pics, not sure. 

[norma427]

James,

Good to hear you sauce and pizzas turned out good!  Glad to hear you could also work with your bad finger. 

Norma

[norma427]

Got my 25# bag of Power Flour last night!

Scott,

Best of luck with your Luigi's clone!    Good to hear you were able to get some Power Flour.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Got my 25# bag of Power Flour last night!

The attached picture is of the below recipe with the sugar at 2% and the ball of the left at 63% hydration and the one on the right a 65%. Neither were sticky at the least and least almost 0% bowl residual. I will be baking tomorrow after a 24 hours cold ferment
It is amazing that is flour can adsorb 65% so easily without being sticky and slack. It is like it is begging for more water.

Question: I used IDY, instead of ADY and reduced the amount by 25%, does that sound about right?

Scott,

I'm glad to see you do the side by side experiments with the 63% and 65% hydration values. Like scott123, I wondered whether Luigi might be using a hydration value below 65% even though the Power flour has a higher than average rated absorption value.

Your adjustment for using IDY is correct. The adjustment should be by weight (or baker's percent), not volume.

If you get good results with your experiment, it should be easy to adjust the dough formulation you started out with to reflect the actual amounts of ingredients you are using for your experiments.

Peter

[scottserena]

So today I baked both my 63% and 65% hydration clone. with the sugar uped to 2%

I started with the 63% at 550 degrees.  This is what happen after 6 minutes.

I figured that 550 was too high and lowered the temperature to 525 for the rest of the pies.

Taste was good. But I wasnt going for a nearly neo pie.

[scottserena]

so next was the 65% baked at 525

Better but not exactly what I was looking for. I am baking 12" pies, as that is the biggest my stone can handle.
But I think I need to increase the TF. I am using a TF of 0.070736. I think it need to be a touch thicker.

Everyone thought this one was pretty good. But I would like the crust to be a little crisper.

[scottserena]

next was a tomato pizza like they make at Luigi's.  This was the 63% dough

Flavor of the tomato's were excellent, but they were too watery and made the bottom crust to mushy.

I always have to make a few cheeseless for my lactose intolerant wife!

 

[scottserena]

Same one as above, but the 65% dough. Again very watery. This time the color of the crust was very grey, I am not sure why.

All of the pies at about a 6 to 7 minute bake. Maybe lower the oven temp even more? 500 degrees?


So I am not sure where to go for here. The 65% baked at 525 was good, but I would like it crisper.

I am thinking about making a 63% with the original sugar amount, not the sugar increased to 2%.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Scott

[norma427]

Scott,

How did your dough ball look after the cold ferment, and how did the dough handle when you opened up the dough ball?  Did it stretch well?  Also what oven rack position did you have your pizza stone on? 

Norma

[scottserena]

This is the 65% dough after 24 hours. I let it sit at room temp for 2 hours before the bake.

It handled ok, it was very elastic and did not want to open to the 12" size very easily.

But then again opening dough is a not a strong suit of mine.

My oven has a stone setting that turns on the top and bottom elements and the convection fans. I think I may have had it to close to the top broiler element.

After some more feedback I will lower the rack and try it again. 

[norma427]

This is the 65% dough after 24 hours. I let it sit at room temp for 2 hours before the bake.

It handled ok, it was very elastic and did not want to open to the 12" size very easily.

But then again opening dough is a not a strong suit of mine.

My oven has a stone setting that turns on the top and bottom elements and the convection fans. I think I may have had it to close to the top broiler element.

After some more feedback I will lower the rack and try it again. 

Scott,

Thanks for posting the picture of your dough balls.  It is hard to diagnose what the problems are with your dough, or your oven from behind a computer keyboard.  Your dough balls really shouldn’t have been elastic, after a 24 hr. cold ferment and a 2 hr. warm-up.  If you need a video to watch on how to open dough balls, other members or I could provide a video for you. You may be right about the pizzas, and they might have been too close to the broiler element.  It is good if your oven can have both the top and bottom elements on at the same time.  I don’t know about the convection fans though.  Maybe someone that is more experienced in oven set-ups can help you to achieve better results with you oven.  It might take some trails and errors in knowing what the best set-up for you oven is.

So far my experiences with Luigi’s clone doughs are they are easy to open from dough balls.  I have been baking my attempts in a deck oven, so my results would be different than yours.

Norma

[scottserena]

Thanks Norma for your help.

I am  going to try again and lower shelf and maybe turn off the convection

I think I am going to leave the sugar at 2% though. 

Sure if you have some videos to make me a better dough ball opener upper that would be great.

I wonder why they were elastic and yours were not?

[buceriasdon]

Scott, Looking at your photos I would think you need to decrease your thickness factor, not increase it. I frequently make tomato pies and find it worthwhile to let the tomato slices drain on paper towels slightly before topping with them.
Don

[scottserena]

Excellent idea on draing the tomatoes on paper towels first.  Flavor wise this was a favorite, but to way too watery.

I think I am going to keep the tf the same, and stretch the dough out better

I think this is close and with a little tweaking it will be right.

Thanks Don

[scottserena]

Norma,

I friend of mine has a deck oven I can try and a professional Hobart mixer. Once I feel I have the dough close to the results I want I will go to his resturant and try it there.

What temperature were you doing your bake at?

I might try even lower the a 63% hydration. I am thinking in the range of 60%

Thanks for all the feedback

[norma427]

Scott,

There can be a difference between elastic doughs.  Different people use the terms extensibility and elasticity different.  I think the term extensible means the character of the dough is that it allows stretching without springing back, and the term elastic means the character of the dough causes it to spring back.  This also can be called memory.  If you are having problems with your Luigi’s dough balls in opening them, they could be something wrong with your mixing process, how the dough ferments, or other things.  There are many variables that can go into each formula.

This video by Tony Gemignani does show the pizza dough fundamentals of opening a pizza dough ball.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>

If you try another experimental Luigi’s dough, try to record the final dough temperature, how long the dough was mixed, (what were the mixing methods, type of mixer, or mixing by hand) how the dough balls looked before and after fermenting, and notes on how you opened the dough balls and how they performed.  They are many variables in the process, so maybe if you keep notes on your whole process either I or someone else can help your better.

It is good after you get your dough okay you can use a friends deck oven and Hobart mixer.  I had my oven about 525 degrees F, but I would have like to have it a little higher, but since I made my other pizzas at about 525 degrees F, I can’t just up the temperature of the deck oven for one pie. Each deck oven operates different, and there might be experiments to do in each type of deck oven.  

You can use whatever hydration you feel might be okay. You might stay in the same hydrations you were trying to see what happens first, then go to another hydration if things don’t work out well for you.  You said the Power Flour didn't have any problems with mixing with the hydration you were using, if I remember correctly.

Norma