Author Topic: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA  (Read 65479 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2011, 08:45:55 PM »
Peter,

That looks awfully close to the one in the video. Good stuff. At least we now have a number (60qt) to go by if my calculations in my previous post are right.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2011, 09:09:16 PM »
Mike,

I originally calculated a weight of water based on a 25-pound bag of Power flour and a hydration of 65% and got 16.25 pounds of water. A gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds. So, in gallons, it is 1.95 gallons, or 2 gallons rounded off. I couldn't clearly make out the second photo with the caps missing but if you are correct then your numbers look to be close and would suggest the use of a 25-pound bag of flour. Remember, also, that a 25-pound bag of flour doesn't weigh exactly 25 pounds. It can be off a quarter pound either side.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2011, 09:19:19 PM »
There are a lot of  mixer bowls for 60 qt. mixers on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=bowls+for+hobart+mixers  This is one bowl that states the size. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-60-QT-STAINLESS-STEEL-MIXING-BOWL-HOBART-MIXER-/200629595861?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb674aed5#ht_2174wt_905

When I went to buy my dough press, I saw at that pizza business that the owner had a 80 qt. mixer, so I think Peter is right that the mixer is a 60 qt. mixer.  I would think the dough in the mixer and on the table would at least weigh 42 lbs. or more.

If someone doesnít have access to the Power flour, or other flour Luigiís might be using, what would be the next best kind of flour to try. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2011, 10:28:14 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the links on the mixer bowls. I gave up my search too soon.

Unless Pendleton has changed the Power flour from what scott123 posted at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150285.html#msg150285, that flour includes Vitamin C, an enzyme (most likely for increased amylase activity), the standard B-Vitamin package and reduced iron. There is no potassium bromate, so the Vitamin C may be a substitute for the potassium bromate. The protein content of the Power flour is 13.5%, the ash content is 0.57 and the rated absorption value is 65%. I am not aware of a flour that has the same profile. It may exist but I just don't know of it. It might be a flour sold in California by someone like Giusto's or other company that sells unbromated high gluten flours.

The closest General Mills flour I could find is the Remarkable flour, as indicated at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/REMARKABLE%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf. That flour has a protein content of 13.6% and an ash content of 0.56. GM does not give the rated absorption values of its flours but I suspect that the number for the Remarkable flour is around 62-63%. I am sure that GM will provide the actual number if you inquire. As is the case with most of the GM flours in the high protein range, the Remarkable flour is bromated.

An unbromated All Trumps flour (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/ALL%20TRUMPS%20ENR%20MT.pdf) or the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html) might also work even though they are both around 14.2% protein. The ash values for those two flours are 0.56 and 0.52, respectively. You could perhaps lower the protein values of those flours by a mix of either flour with say, all-purpose flour, to lower the total protein content of the blend to 13.5%. One can use the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to do the requisite math. You can also add a little bit of Vitamin C if you wish.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the unbromated All Trumps flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-high-gluten-unbleached-unbromated-flour/50143000; for a current link for the Remarkable flour, see EDIT (4/15/14): For the current Remarkable link, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/remarkable-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/57122000


Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2011, 10:49:52 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the advise on what flours or flour blends to try.  I will wait until another member tries the amount of ingredients you recommended should be tried, and see what kind of results they get, before I give Luigiís dough an attempt. 

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2011, 12:39:03 AM »
Mike,

I originally calculated a weight of water based on a 25-pound bag of Power flour and a hydration of 65% and got 16.25 pounds of water. A gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds. So, in gallons, it is 1.95 gallons, or 2 gallons rounded off. I couldn't clearly make out the second photo with the caps missing but if you are correct then your numbers look to be close and would suggest the use of a 25-pound bag of flour. Remember, also, that a 25-pound bag of flour doesn't weigh exactly 25 pounds. It can be off a quarter pound either side.

Peter

Peter,

Sorry for the delay. Just got home from dinner with friends.

What I did was I converted one gallon into liters. And since a liter has the same weight as a kilogram, it was easy to go from there.

Anyway, I didn't think of the weight difference regarding the flour. But I do think that a 68% hydration for a NY-style pie is a bit much, especially when Luigi's spins it doughs and the dough doesn't really look that high in hydration in the video. But then again, Reinhardt has a recipe for NY-style with a high hydration value.

I'm might be wrong but I think the hydration could be somewhere around 60%-62% suggesting he might use a flour of greater weight than 25lbs for a batch.

Mike

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2011, 12:48:37 AM »
Peter,

..... I'm might be wrong but I think the hydration could be somewhere around 60%-62% suggesting he might use a flour of greater weight than 25lbs for a batch.



I "agree" just looking at the bags.  It looks to me to be greater than 25#.  Peter what made you look away from the 32# bag you had found available before?
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2011, 08:27:03 AM »
These articles were probably studied by Peter before, but I just thought I would post them, incase anyone is interested.

On urban spoon on the pictures, it shows a picture of the dough trays that sit in the middle of the room. http://www.urbanspoon.com/u/photo_list/313964?photo_id=46416

At this radio interview, Luigi said that Guy was at his pizzeria for 7 hrs. to film the segment

http://pizzerialuigi.com/luigis110309.mp3

This is another picture with Guy and the dough trays stacked up.

http://www.insiderpages.com/businesses/3711421125/images/342347?type=BusinessImage

In this picture on Facebook, I wonder why the stove is next to the oven, when it wasnít there before in the video.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=251089783123&set=pu.250989848123&type=1&theater

Facebook page for Luigiís, if it can be viewed. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?sk=wall

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2011, 11:23:53 AM »
Mike and Gene,

To answer your questions, I will begin by saying that my premise all along with the Luigi video is that what he is doing in the video is authentic and that the ingredient quantities are correct and that he isn't saying one thing on camera and doing something else off camera. I also realize that when doing a shoot, things are quite likely done that are different than what is normally done. For example, in looking at some of the links that Norma posted, it looks like they cleaned up Luigi's place for the shoot. So, things might have been moved around to make the place look more presentable. In the process, that might have led some of us to wrong conclusions.

The above said, when it comes to hydration values, I usually tend to err on the low side rather than the high side. For example, you will not often see me recommend that someone use a hydration value of 65% or some other value greater than the rated absorption value of a given flour, even for a high gluten flour. However, in the case of the Power flour, it has a rated absorption value of 65%. Most millers do not state the rated absorption values for their flours voluntarily but I am aware of the rated absorption values of many high gluten flours and they are almost always less than 65%. For example, for the All Trumps and KASL flours, the rated absorption values are 63%. And that is for flours that have protein contents of 14.2%, which is quite a bit higher than the 13.5% protein content of the Power flour. I cannot recall any other high gluten flour offhand that has a rated absorption value of 65%. To this, I will add that, according to the article at http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/allyoucaneat/2009921993_pizza_flour_what_to_use_depend.html, "Power is a strong, Montana-grown, commercial-grade, hard durum wheat flour."  I can't say for sure, but I suppose that that might help explain the higher rated absorption value.

In arriving at the 65% hydration figure for the Power flour as used by Luigi, I also relied on observing the texture and consistency of the finished dough as shown in the video. To me, those factors suggest a hydration of around 65%. I believe that scott123 came to essentially the same conclusion as I did from the analysis of the specs for the Power flour and the video. I might also add that the "operational hydration" of a given flour, which relates to how bakers actually use the flour, can be a few percent higher than the rated absorption value. So, an "operational hydration" of 67% for a flour with a rated absorption value of 65% does not strike me as being excessive. In arriving at the 65% figure, I also reviewed the Jet's video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE</a>
. From what I understand, the dough shown in the Jet's video has a hydration of around 65%. Although the flour used by Jet's is likely to be a different flour than used by Luigi, the texture and consistency of the finished dough looks quite similar to Luigi's dough. The dough making part of the Jets video starts at about 2:39. Note the dough handling characteristics at around 3:00 in the video.

As a further observation, I will say that I believe that what Luigi is doing with his NY style dough strikes me as being quite authentic, and particularly so if he uses room temperature fermentation. In this vein, I recall that Evelyne Slomon once reported on the forum (in the NY board) that the protein content of the old NY style doughs had lower values than are now used in most places that specialize in the NY style (e.g., flours like All Trumps) and that the hydration value was around 65%--and that was for flours that were used long before high gluten flours started to be used and when flours were not as good as they are today. She also mentioned a salt baker's percent of 1.0% (which I found to be too low for my palate). I even played around with Evelyne's ideas at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg39803.html#msg39803. As can be seen from that post, I did not have problems with extensibility at 65% hydration and that was with all-purpose flour in one case. However, I did use a special dough making method to make the dough so that it had qualities comparable to what I believed matched commercial planetary mixers.

I admittedly took a long and winding road to get from point A to point B, with a lot of pit stops along the way to analyze flour specs, apply logic and past experience, apply intuition, and draw in some history, but that is how I arrived at a hydration value of 65%. I will admit that it takes some skill to be able to form 18" skins in a commercial setting at a hydration of around 65%. However, member Terry Deane used to do it routinely in his pizza shop. Also, I believe that the 15 minute knead time that Luigi uses may help develop a strong gluten matrix for his doughs and improve the elasticity/extensibility characteristics.

If it sounded that I was fixated on the 25-pound bag size, I did not mean that to be the case. But if Mike is right that two bottles of water are used to make the dough, with each bottle being a gallon, then the amount of flour that would be used to get to a hydration value of 65% would seem to suggest a 25-pound bag more than a 30-pound bag. Of course, I could be wrong. And my logic at arriving to the conclusions stated above could be wrong or flawed in one or more respects.

Peter

Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2011, 11:28:36 AM »
Norma, thanks for those links.  I had no idea that Guy was there so long to film such a short segment.  I suppose it takes a long time in TV Land to get things done correctly.  Or maybe Guy was so hungry he stayed to eat pizza all day!  I think that might be the case because after that in the next episode it looks like he put on a few pounds.  LOL, J/K.   :pizza:

In all seriousness, thanks for posting those links.  I wasn't aware of how long he took.  I did not listen to that radio interview or click on those links but I am going to now.  Nice detective work Norma. 

Edited my response - I just saw the photos and listened to the interview.  It was great.  Seems like this is Guy's fave pizza on the west coast.  Thanks much Norma.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 11:34:31 AM by PizzaEater101 »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2011, 11:53:44 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for the links. In a couple of the photos showing the oven, the name plates are affixed. I can't make out the name clearly but I believe the oven is a Blodgett oven.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2011, 12:02:36 PM »
Peter,

I can understand your logic with Luigiís dough,  probably is right since you said Jetís dough is probably about 65% hydration.  When I just made an attempt at a Jetís pizza, at Reply 90 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg150725.html#msg150725
I used a hydration of 63.111%, and use the Superlative flour.  I donít think the Superlative flour has an absorption rate of the hydration I used, and I also just used my Kitchen Aid mixer to mix the attempted Jetís dough, but the dough did feel fine. Although I didnít stretch that dough ball into a pizza, I think I could have stretched the dough ball.  I also used ADY, sugar, and salt only in that dough, and the dough seemed fine.  Luigiís uses his Hobart mixer to mix his dough, so I also know a Hobart mixer can mix a dough a lot better than my Kitchen Aid mixer.  

I find you whole analysis interesting, and how you came to the conclusion what Luigi is doing to make his doughs.  I will be anxious for a member to try out your ideas, to see what kind of results are achieved.  

I will see if I can print out the one web page, where he name is on the oven.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:07:42 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2011, 12:06:29 PM »
Norma, thanks for those links.  I had no idea that Guy was there so long to film such a short segment.  I suppose it takes a long time in TV Land to get things done correctly.  Or maybe Guy was so hungry he stayed to eat pizza all day!  I think that might be the case because after that in the next episode it looks like he put on a few pounds.  LOL, J/K.   :pizza:

In all seriousness, thanks for posting those links.  I wasn't aware of how long he took.  I did not listen to that radio interview or click on those links but I am going to now.  Nice detective work Norma. 

Edited my response - I just saw the photos and listened to the interview.  It was great.  Seems like this is Guy's fave pizza on the west coast.  Thanks much Norma.


James,

Your are welcome any time.  I find when Peter or another member is trying to reverse-engineer dough or pizzas interesting.  I sure can't do it, but I like the process.

I was also surprised at how long Guy was at Luigi's to be able do the segment.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2011, 12:25:16 PM »
Peter,

What you said makes complete sense.

Regarding the two water bottles I mentioned, I watched the scene of that particular segment in slo-mo a few times but the pic I was able to get out of it was a bit blurry. However, Luigi used the two bottles in the front of the four. I added some arrows (red for used, green for unused) to make it a bit clearer.

The reason I had doubts about the 68% or even the 65% value was because of the spinning of the dough. I have made high hydration doughs before and they're not really that easy to handle but perhaps that's just me. Another thing that struck me in terms of the hydration was that whenever I have used a higher value the individual dough balls were somewhat flat and not as puffy and domed like you see in the pic below. But then again, I'm not a pro pizza maker and maybe it's the amount of yeast and short room-temp fermentation that keeps them fluffed up.



Norma,

Thanks for posting those links.

I think the photo with the stove next to the oven is from his other location. Check out the gallery:

http://pizzerialuigi.com/gallery.html
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2011, 12:31:19 PM »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2011, 12:38:49 PM »


I think the photo with the stove next to the oven is from his other location. Check out the gallery:

http://pizzerialuigi.com/gallery.html



Mike,

I didn't know there was another location.  Thanks for the link.  The picture of the dough balls are really interesting.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2011, 12:45:31 PM »
Norma & Peter,

It is a Blodgett. This pic was taken from the gallery where they filmed the video...

Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2011, 01:02:57 PM »
Norma & Peter,

It is a Blodgett. This pic was taken from the gallery where they filmed the video...



Mike,

Great find!  ;D

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2011, 01:08:17 PM »
Another thing that struck me in terms of the hydration was that whenever I have used a higher value the individual dough balls were somewhat flat and not as puffy and domed like you see in the pic below.


Mike,

I provided this link earlier, but are these flat enough for you: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw  :-D?

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that when I looked at the first two photos that Gene posted at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150528.html#msg150528, the bag of flour shown there looks to be smaller than the ones in the last photo. Or do my eyes deceive me?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2011, 01:28:07 PM »
Mike and Norma,

When I researched the oven matter earlier, I thought that the one shown in the Luigi video was something like the Blodgett 1000, as shown, for example, at http://desiregoji.com/pizzaequipment/blodgett-1000-pizza-deck-ovens-used/. The photo that Mike provided looks to be a different Blodgett model, perhaps the one used at the other Pizzeria Luigi location. Or possibly there was an oven replacement somewhere along the way.

Peter


 

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