Author Topic: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA  (Read 92688 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2011, 11:53:44 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for the links. In a couple of the photos showing the oven, the name plates are affixed. I can't make out the name clearly but I believe the oven is a Blodgett oven.

Peter


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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2011, 12:02:36 PM »
Peter,

I can understand your logic with Luigiís dough,  probably is right since you said Jetís dough is probably about 65% hydration.  When I just made an attempt at a Jetís pizza, at Reply 90 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg150725.html#msg150725
I used a hydration of 63.111%, and use the Superlative flour.  I donít think the Superlative flour has an absorption rate of the hydration I used, and I also just used my Kitchen Aid mixer to mix the attempted Jetís dough, but the dough did feel fine. Although I didnít stretch that dough ball into a pizza, I think I could have stretched the dough ball.  I also used ADY, sugar, and salt only in that dough, and the dough seemed fine.  Luigiís uses his Hobart mixer to mix his dough, so I also know a Hobart mixer can mix a dough a lot better than my Kitchen Aid mixer.  

I find you whole analysis interesting, and how you came to the conclusion what Luigi is doing to make his doughs.  I will be anxious for a member to try out your ideas, to see what kind of results are achieved.  

I will see if I can print out the one web page, where he name is on the oven.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:07:42 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2011, 12:06:29 PM »
Norma, thanks for those links.  I had no idea that Guy was there so long to film such a short segment.  I suppose it takes a long time in TV Land to get things done correctly.  Or maybe Guy was so hungry he stayed to eat pizza all day!  I think that might be the case because after that in the next episode it looks like he put on a few pounds.  LOL, J/K.   :pizza:

In all seriousness, thanks for posting those links.  I wasn't aware of how long he took.  I did not listen to that radio interview or click on those links but I am going to now.  Nice detective work Norma. 

Edited my response - I just saw the photos and listened to the interview.  It was great.  Seems like this is Guy's fave pizza on the west coast.  Thanks much Norma.


James,

Your are welcome any time.  I find when Peter or another member is trying to reverse-engineer dough or pizzas interesting.  I sure can't do it, but I like the process.

I was also surprised at how long Guy was at Luigi's to be able do the segment.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2011, 12:25:16 PM »
Peter,

What you said makes complete sense.

Regarding the two water bottles I mentioned, I watched the scene of that particular segment in slo-mo a few times but the pic I was able to get out of it was a bit blurry. However, Luigi used the two bottles in the front of the four. I added some arrows (red for used, green for unused) to make it a bit clearer.

The reason I had doubts about the 68% or even the 65% value was because of the spinning of the dough. I have made high hydration doughs before and they're not really that easy to handle but perhaps that's just me. Another thing that struck me in terms of the hydration was that whenever I have used a higher value the individual dough balls were somewhat flat and not as puffy and domed like you see in the pic below. But then again, I'm not a pro pizza maker and maybe it's the amount of yeast and short room-temp fermentation that keeps them fluffed up.



Norma,

Thanks for posting those links.

I think the photo with the stove next to the oven is from his other location. Check out the gallery:

http://pizzerialuigi.com/gallery.html
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2011, 12:31:19 PM »

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2011, 12:38:49 PM »


I think the photo with the stove next to the oven is from his other location. Check out the gallery:

http://pizzerialuigi.com/gallery.html


Mike,

I didn't know there was another location.  Thanks for the link.  The picture of the dough balls are really interesting.

Norma

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2011, 12:45:31 PM »
Norma & Peter,

It is a Blodgett. This pic was taken from the gallery where they filmed the video...

Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2011, 01:02:57 PM »
Norma & Peter,

It is a Blodgett. This pic was taken from the gallery where they filmed the video...



Mike,

Great find!  ;D

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2011, 01:08:17 PM »
Another thing that struck me in terms of the hydration was that whenever I have used a higher value the individual dough balls were somewhat flat and not as puffy and domed like you see in the pic below.

Mike,

I provided this link earlier, but are these flat enough for you: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw  :-D?

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that when I looked at the first two photos that Gene posted at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150528.html#msg150528, the bag of flour shown there looks to be smaller than the ones in the last photo. Or do my eyes deceive me?

Peter


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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2011, 01:28:07 PM »
Mike and Norma,

When I researched the oven matter earlier, I thought that the one shown in the Luigi video was something like the Blodgett 1000, as shown, for example, at http://desiregoji.com/pizzaequipment/blodgett-1000-pizza-deck-ovens-used/. The photo that Mike provided looks to be a different Blodgett model, perhaps the one used at the other Pizzeria Luigi location. Or possibly there was an oven replacement somewhere along the way.

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2011, 01:40:44 PM »
Peter,

I didnít even think about how the ovens changed. I donít think it matters if Luigi did change ovens, or if the Blodgett ovens are different at each place. I would think Blodgett ovens all bake about the same way.

Norma

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2011, 01:53:47 PM »
Mike,

I provided this link earlier, but are these flat enough for you: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw  :-D?

Peter

Peter,

Now that's funny!  ;D

I didn't even see that you posted the link before.

Regarding the link you provided to the Blodgett 1000, when I first saw the video I thought to myself that it is a pretty narrow oven and how he can turn out a lot of pies during busy times in his pizzeria. It does seem that they must have replaced the oven somewhere along the way because in both location the ovens look different, wider and larger.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2011, 02:27:53 PM »
It really looks like they changed up the ovens...

Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2011, 04:35:22 PM »
Do we think it is bleached or unbleached ?  Or does it actually effect the outcome of the dough?
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2011, 05:10:52 PM »
Now I can imagine why they switched to a bigger oven...read the reviews here on Citysearch San Diego:

http://sandiego.citysearch.com/profile/42645959/san_diego_ca/pizzeria_luigi.html#profileTab-reviews

That pizza must be the bomb! It might be well worth to put in the effort to dissect all the info available and try to reverse-engineer this dough. Even though we have perhaps only the video and recipe on Food Network's website to go by it shouldn't be impossible.

Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2011, 05:32:12 PM »
Do we think it is bleached or unbleached ?  Or does it actually effect the outcome of the dough?

Gene,

Luigi's dough does seem to be on the "white" side but I do not see anything in the video to tell us one way or the other whether the flour is bleached or not. If the flour is bleached, then we would know that the bag size is 30 pounds.

If Luigi were to be true to tradition for the NY style, he would use bleached flour since, according to what I read at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081/topicseen.html#msg37081, the flour that was used by the NYC pizza operators at the turn of the 20th century was bleached flour. These days, there are many pizza operators who specialize in the NY style that use high gluten flour that is both bleached and bromated.

If, for purposes of discussion, we assume that Luigi is using a bleached Power flour (in a 30-pound bag) and two gallons of water, then the hydration would be about 55.6%. I don't think that a dough at that hydration would handle as shown in the Luigi video. One fairly simple way to address the hydration issue if one has the Power flour to play around with, either bleached or unbleached, is to come up with a basic starting dough formulation based on a hydration of 65%. A part of the water can be held back while the rest is put into the mixer bowl. Then gradually add the formula flour to the bowl and mix/knead the dough until it achieves the consistency and handling characteristics as shown in the Luigi video, adding back some of the reserved water if necessary to achieve that condition. If there is any leftover water, knowing that amount can be used to calculate the actual hydration. 

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2011, 06:00:46 PM »
Peter,

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around a 65% or higher hydration.

Maybe it's silly but when I looked at the video closely, once again during my lunch break, I noticed that there's absolutely no dough sticking to fingers - something I encounter with higher hydrations almost regularly - during the dough handling (dividing & balling) beginning at 2:02 mins of the video. I'm thinking that he might not have used all of the two gallons, maybe a bit less? It's not really clear from the video or the pic I've posted previously.

I'm also wondering if Luigi adds oil to his dough or not. If he does, it would result in an even more saturated dough, unless I'm wrong on this one.

Another thing that caught my eye was at 3:57 mins, Guy Fieri holds up a Mona Lisa slice, showing the bottom of the crust which is nicely browned with almost a few charred spots to it. However, the crust seemed to crack right down the middle. Personally, I have only encountered that with lower hydration doughs in the 60% range but it could be the oven. But at a temp range of 525įF to 550įF that would mean a longer bake time. Then again, commercial ovens run hotter than my run-of-the-mill home oven so I might be wrong on this one.

On another note, regarding the bromated flours, he would have to have a sign in the shop that states that he's using a bromated version but I haven't seen one in all the pics I've seen online.
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2011, 06:18:22 PM »
Mike,

I can't categorically say that your position is wrong and, in fact, it mirrors my usual position on high hydration doughs, but unless you are using the Power flour in a commercial mixer with a fairly long knead time, you can't really conclude that the dough will not be capable of being handled without sticking. Many of our members have demonstrated great skill in making and kneading high hydration doughs by hand, usually with many stretch and folds, to achieve a finished dough that is not sticky. I would imagine that a commercial mixer with a fairly long knead time should be able to do the same.

As for the crack in the slice that Guy is holding in the video, remember that the thickness factor is only 0.0707. That, coupled with a bake at 525-550 degrees F, might be responsible for the cracker-like texture, even at a high hydration. I might add that in reading yelp and other reviews of Luigi's pizza, I read of several complaints that the crust was too cracker-like. I also read of complaints that pizzas were often overbaked.

I went through the dough making part of the video frame by frame and I saw no evidence whatsoever of oil being used in or on the dough. I wondered about the latter since some of the dough balls in the photos looked a bit glossy. I even wondered whether the glossiness was due to moisture condensation as might be observed for dough balls that are cold fermented.

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2011, 06:31:00 PM »
Peter,

I think he said he mixes the dough for 15 mins. And yes, you can tell me if/when I'm wrong.  ;D Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you at all, I'm just trying to come to terms with the hydration part.

Regarding the oil, he might coat/brush them prior to fermentation. Have you converted the Mona LIsa recipe on the Food Network site, by any chance?

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/pizzeria-luigi--mona-lisa-pizza-recipe/index.html
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2011, 06:42:09 PM »
Have you converted the Mona LIsa recipe on the Food Network site, by any chance?

Mike,

I casually studied the recipe but when I concluded that the recipe calls for all-purpose flour, two packets of ADY yeast, and an amount of water that yields a hydration of around 80%, I concluded that the recipe was not what Luigi uses in his pizzeria. Also, the total dough weight was around 30 ounces, which would not be enough to make two 18-ounce dough balls. Both scott123 and I discussed the recipe earlier in the thread starting at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150261.html#msg150261.

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2011, 07:33:20 PM »
Mike,

I casually studied the recipe but when I concluded that the recipe calls for all-purpose flour, two packets of ADY yeast, and an amount of water that yields a hydration of around 80%, I concluded that the recipe was not what Luigi uses in his pizzeria. Also, the total dough weight was around 30 ounces, which would not be enough to make two 18-ounce dough balls. Both scott123 and I discussed the recipe earlier in the thread starting at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150261.html#msg150261.

Peter

Peter,

Did a quick conversion and got similar numbers for the FN recipe:

438 gr, AP flour  100%
355gr. Water       81%
14gr. ADY               3%
pinch of salt

I don't think that's what he uses, either. I'm wondering why FN would post that kind of recipe with his name on it.
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2011, 08:02:30 PM »
I even wondered whether the glossiness was due to moisture condensation as might be observed for dough balls that are cold fermented.

This is what I conjectured earlier. Every time I watch the video, I getting a stronger feeling that it is, indeed, condensation. Although I don't have a great deal of experience with room temp ferments, I really don't ever recall there being condensation, if any. Perhaps proofing at close proximity to the oven is a way for them to quickly take the chill off of refrigerated dough.

As far as the hydration goes, based on the flour, I had earlier conjectured that the hydration was 'no more than 65%' with a best guess of 64-65, but it could be as low as 62.  No lower than that, though- not with an oil free dough.

I've always worked with 50 lb bags of flour, so I'm not accustomed to recognizing smaller bags, but, from watching this video a few times, I don't think these are 25 lb bags.

Lastly, I think it's important to note that he pours the water into a bucket before he pours it into the mixer.  If he was working with whole gallons of water, he wouldn't be using the bucket. The only purpose the bucket serves is for measuring the water.

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2011, 08:28:47 PM »
This is what I conjectured earlier. Every time I watch the video, I getting a stronger feeling that it is, indeed, condensation. Although I don't have a great deal of experience with room temp ferments, I really don't ever recall there being condensation, if any. Perhaps proofing at close proximity to the oven is a way for them to quickly take the chill off of refrigerated dough.

As far as the hydration goes, based on the flour, I had earlier conjectured that the hydration was 'no more than 65%' with a best guess of 64-65, but it could be as low as 62.  No lower than that, though- not with an oil free dough.

I've always worked with 50 lb bags of flour, so I'm not accustomed to recognizing smaller bags, but, from watching this video a few times, I don't think these are 25 lb bags.

Lastly, I think it's important to note that he pours the water into a bucket before he pours it into the mixer.  If he was working with whole gallons of water, he wouldn't be using the bucket. The only purpose the bucket serves is for measuring the water.


Interesting piece, Scotty.

I think what we also have to keep in mind that the video was a segment made for TV.

His daily operations might be totally different and if you're convinced that it's actually condensation that would point towards a cold ferment, perhaps overnight? Another thing , if he'd really use a room temp rise, would be that the dough, especially next to the oven and the stacked dough boxes not being air-tight, would develop a skin unless he brushes them slightly with oil. But I haven't seen a skin, whether in the video nor in most of the pics.

Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2011, 09:30:26 PM »
This is a review of Pizzeria Luigi, San Diego by, Erin Jackson on Slice. Erin said Luigiís hand-tossed crust is thin and much chewier than most, with a golden brown bottom cover in tiny blisters.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/06/draft-daily-slice-pizzeria-luigi-san-diego.html#continued


In this article, part way down, http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/12/save-your-dough/ Lugi Agostini, talks about dough, and says he favors a thin-crust, New York-style pie and uses no oil in his preparation, which accounts for its crispier crust.  
 Agostini said he finds that leaving the dough covered in the refrigerator with a damp cloth, not only makes it easier to work with, but more importantly, it keeps the dough from over-rising and losing its elasticity.  He also says in part of the article that he changes his recipe three times a year based on the weather.  I guess he was talking about his pizzerias dough. There is more in the article, but a recipe for home dough is at the end of the article.

Norma

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2011, 10:16:10 PM »
This blog says that Luigi Agostini learned the pizza business working at Bronx Pizza.

http://sandiegopizzapie.blogspot.com/2011/01/close-but-no-cigar-pizzeria-luigi.html

I donít know if that is true or not.

Norma