Author Topic: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA  (Read 87094 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #175 on: September 03, 2011, 01:57:37 PM »
Mike,

Did you add the rest of the ingredients also, such as the salt, yeast and sugar? Also, it is possible that in a home setting using a standard home grade mixer you may need to cut back on the hydration. Or you might try sifting the flour and add it gradually to the water to improve its hydration. It is also possible that your flour is very fresh and has a high moisture content that didn't have a chance to diminish while in transit and storage before you got it.

I also didn't see anything in the video on the speeds used for the 15 minute mix/knead. You can see the recommended mix/knead protocol in the post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396.html#msg68396. Also, many of the Hobart mixers, including the two models that I mentioned earlier, have 15 minute timers. That might be what Luigi uses in the video.

Peter


Peter,

I did add everything and followed the mixing procedure closely, as in .25% yeast first, then 1.75% sugar...dissolve...then 2% salt. I even gave the flour a 10 minute rest after combining everything.

I have the complete formula at home and can post it later on tonight. But it's not a Luigi formula, though, since we don't have the numbers yet.

With my next batch, I'll try a lower hydration, perhaps 62%, and see what happens.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #176 on: September 03, 2011, 08:02:55 PM »
In the next post, I will present four Luigi clone dough formulations for testing purposes. In this post, I will discuss what I did and how and why so it will hopefully be clear how I arrived at all of my numbers.

The four dough formulations in the next post are based on using 25-, 30-, 32- and 50-pound bags of the Pendleton Power high-gluten flour. By way of recapitulation, the 25-, 32- and 50-pound bags of the Power flour are unbleached. The 30-pound bag of Power flour is bleached. We donít know exactly which size bag or flour was used in the video (although we tend not to believe that it is 50 pounds), or whether the flour in the Luigi video was bleached or unbleached. That is the reason for the multiple dough formulations and also why I have included examples of both bleached and unbleached Power flours. The latest information has it that Luigi is using 50-pound bags of Power flour, along with IDY. In the video, Guy Fieri describes the yeast as ďdry active yeastĒ. Presumably, he means ADY. For my purposes, I used ADY but it is easy enough to convert that to IDY should anyone wish to do so. If Guy Fieri was in error and he really meant IDY, then the dough formulations will have to be corrected at such time as the error is confirmed.

For the hydration value in the dough formulations, I used 65%. That is the rated absorption value for the Power flour, as I recently reported. Also, when I looked at the Luigi video, I felt that the hydration value he used was about 65%, strictly from the appearance of the dough balls that were made shortly after the dough was completed. In a home setting using standard mixers, one might choose to use a lower hydration value since home equipment in most cases is not as good at hydrating a flour and developing the gluten structure as a commercial Hobart mixer in a commercial setting. As scott123 told us, the water used in the Luigi video is Crystal Geyser spring water, in gallon jugs. He should also get credit for having identified the Pendleton Power flour as the flour used by Luigi in the video.

In order to determine how much yeast and salt to use, I did some calculations from the video, as earlier described, and put together a cardboard mock-up of a bowl having the dimensions mentioned in Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151794.html#msg151794. I even glued a thin black plastic film to the inside of my bowl so that the lines of demarcation between the ingredients in the bowl would be more pronounced against the black backdrop. I did my best to carefully eyeball the amounts of ingredients as I put them into my bowl, watching frames of the video as I did so, but I was also conscious that this is not a perfect exercise and that there are also compaction dynamics with yeast and salt that can affect the final amounts that end up in the bowl (Luigi would have encountered the same laws of physics when he put the ingredients in the various bowls). However, I am comfortable about what I did overall.

To be sure that the yeast shown in the video was in two bowls, and not just one, I viewed the yeast in my bowl through a translucent container such as the one shown at 1:00 in the video (that partly obscures one of the bowls) and then did the same with salt in a bowl. The two different colors (dull for the yeast and brighter for the salt) led me to conclude that there are two bowls of yeast in the video. If the only yeast was the small amount shown in one of the bowls in the video, and there was something else in the other bowl adjacent to it (the one partly obscured by the translucent water pitcher), the amount of yeast from a bakerís percent would be woefully inadequate for a normal fermentation. Also, the stream of yeast going into the water as shown in the video is much more than a small amount.

I should also mention that I measured out the volume of yeast using IDY, not ADY. I did not have ADY in bulk to use for the weighings. However, I converted the weight of the IDY to a corresponding weight of ADY. For the conversion, I used the conversion data built into the expanded dough calculating tool, which is the tool I used to come up with the four Luigi dough clone formulations in the next post. As a cross check, I also looked at the conversion factors built into the theartisan.net yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm, and the conversion data from that table is quite close to my values. If people want to do a bit of math, they can use the theartisan.net yeast conversion table to do the conversions if they prefer to use those numbers.

As I discussed before, I believe that there are two bowls of salt used in the video to make Luigiís dough. When I later did the calculations for the salt bakerís percent, it was clear that two bowls of salt were used because using only one would have produced bakerís percent numbers for the salt that would have been too low in my opinion. To get an idea as to how low, one might just divided the salt bakerís percents in the four Luigi clone dough formulations by a factor of roughly two.

As I also noted before, I could not find a bowl on the table for the sugar. In the video, Luigi says he uses a small amount of sugar to help the yeast get started but I did not see him holding a bowl of the sugar. The video only shows about a four-second fan or stream of sugar going into the mixer bowl. So, I tried to simulate what he did by reaching into my sugar bag, grabbing a handful and releasing it from a height of a couple of feet to create a four-second stream into a bowl. That is the amount reflected in the dough formulations in the next post. If I am wrong, I will need evidence of it and will happily receive it.

Members will have the option of deciding which Luigi clone dough formulation to use. Since all of the dough formulations are based on using full bags of flours, those wishing to come up with a dough formulation for a particular size pizzas can do so by selecting the Thickness Factor option of the expanded dough calculating tool (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html), and then enter the desired pizza size, a thickness factor value of 0.070736, and the bakerís percents for the ADY (or the correct percent of IDY if substituted for the ADY), for the salt and for the sugar from the clone dough formulation they would like to try. The Luigi video only mentions using 18 ounces of dough for an 18Ē pizza. Since most people do not have ovens big enough to make 18Ē pizzas directly on pizza stones, it makes sense to make smaller sizes. I did not use any bowl residue compensation for any of the four Luigi clone dough formulations since I was trying to recreate what I think is happening in the Luigi video. Members should feel free to use them if they so wish when making one or more dough balls in a home setting, which is my standard practice.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #177 on: September 03, 2011, 08:11:02 PM »
I have presented below the four Luigi clone dough formulations. I think it will become evident that a 50-pound bag of Pendleton Power flour was not used to make the dough shown in the Luigi video. I included it since members kept noting what appeared to be 50-pound bags of flour in the storage unit next to the oven. I thought that it would have become evident that the size of the dough batch that was shown in the video was far less than you would get with a 50-pound bag of flour (around 83 pounds). But I thought it would be useful to put the matter to rest.

Some may also rule out the clone formulation based on 30 pounds of flour because it is a bleached flour, and Luigi currently uses the unbleached Power flour. However, the video does not tell us that the flour is bleached or unbleached.

Assuming that what I did was correct or nearly so, does anyone want to venture to guess which Luigi clone dough formulation might have been used in the video? And why?

I hope that members who decide to test out one or more of the Luigi clone dough formulations will report back on their results. Having spent so much time on this project, as have Mike and Norma, with others in the wings, Iíd like to know if my approach and analysis was correct.

# 1: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 25-pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.70827%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (0.22928%):
Total (167.92155%):
11339.99 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
7371 g  |  260 oz | 16.25 lbs
80.32 g | 2.83 oz | 0.18 lbs | 7.08 tbsp | 0.44 cups
224.99 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
19042.3 g | 671.69 oz | 41.98 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

#2: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 30-pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Bleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.6271%):
Salt (1.65344%):
Sugar (0.19106%):
Total (167.4716%):
13608 g  |  480 oz | 30 lbs
8845.2 g  |  312 oz | 19.5 lbs
85.34 g | 3.01 oz | 0.19 lbs | 7.53 tbsp | 0.47 cups
225 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
22789.54 g | 803.86 oz | 50.24 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

#3: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 32-Pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.5533%):
Salt (1.5501%):
Sugar (0.17912%):
Total (167.28252%):
14515.2 g  |  512 oz | 32 lbs
9434.88 g  |  332.8 oz | 20.8 lbs
80.31 g | 2.83 oz | 0.18 lbs | 7.08 tbsp | 0.44 cups
225 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
24281.39 g | 856.49 oz | 53.53 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

#4: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 50-Pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.35412%):
Salt (0.9921%):
Sugar (0.11464%):
Total (166.46086%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
14742 g  |  520 oz | 32.5 lbs
80.31 g | 2.83 oz | 0.18 lbs | 7.08 tbsp | 0.44 cups
225.01 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
37753.33 g | 1331.69 oz | 83.23 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #178 on: September 03, 2011, 08:32:09 PM »
Peter,

WOW! I'm completely convinced that you must have really worked in a forensics lab  ;D

What you posted is fantastic and I will definitely report back to you on how things turned out since I am probably the only one with a bag of PPF at the moment. But Norma could probably achieve comparable results with the Sir Lancelot flour, no?

But I have one question: How do I know which formula to use? I could test all four, no problem, but we'd still don't really know which one's the one Luigi uses or comes closest to his except for going to get a slice in person. No wait, the 'bleached' version is out since I don't have that kind of flour.

I also might have to lower the hydration a couple of percentage points.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #179 on: September 03, 2011, 08:53:08 PM »
Given the numbers Peter has set forth in above's post I came up with a scaled down first version (25lb bag), using IDY instead of ADY, for a 17" Luigi clone with a hydration of 62%.

If there are any errors in it, please point them out.

25 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza


Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.56437%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (.22928%):
Total (164.77765%):
Single Ball:
552.48 g  |  19.49 oz | 1.22 lbs
342.53 g  |  12.08 oz | 0.76 lbs
3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
10.96 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

32 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.44092%):
Salt (1.5501%):
Sugar (0.17912%):
Total (164.17014%):
Single Ball:
554.52 g  |  19.56 oz | 1.22 lbs
343.8 g  |  12.13 oz | 0.76 lbs
2.44 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
8.6 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
0.99 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

50 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.35412%):
Salt (0.9921%):
Sugar (0.11464%):
Total (163.46086%):
Single Ball:
556.93 g  |  19.64 oz | 1.23 lbs
345.29 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
5.53 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

All three formulas are without bowl residue compensation.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 09:24:56 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #180 on: September 03, 2011, 08:59:56 PM »
Mike,

Yes, I think that Norma could use the KASL and possibly other high-gluten flours in the same protein range, or maybe even something closer to the Power flour protein content but with a lower hydration value. She has the advantage of having a deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas.

Hopefully before you are ready to make the next batch of dough we will get some guesses on which of the four Luigi clone dough formulations looks to be the closest to what is used in the Luigi video.

I have not worked in forensics before. I think it is all the experience with reverse engineering and cloning that is the explanation. However, there is one thing that I have not been able to figure out in the video. Maybe you can help me with it. Can you tell me what is in the nose of the young lady at 0:34 in the video? Maybe she got too close to her vegan pizza?

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #181 on: September 03, 2011, 09:06:49 PM »
Mike,

Yes, I think that Norma could use the KASL and possibly other high-gluten flours in the same protein range, or maybe even something closer to the Power flour protein content but with a lower hydration value. She has the advantage of having a deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas.

Hopefully before you are ready to make the next batch of dough we will get some guesses on which of the four Luigi clone dough formulations looks to be the closest to what is used in the Luigi video.

I have not worked in forensics before. I think it is all the experience with reverse engineering and cloning that is the explanation. However, there is one thing that I have not been able to figure out in the video. Maybe you can help me with it. Can you tell me what is in the nose of the young lady at 0:34 in the video? Maybe she got too close to her vegan pizza?

Peter

Peter,

I have edited my previous post and posted three formulas for the 25, 32 & 50 bags since I don't have any bleached flour except for the Harvest Bread which isn't a high-gluten.

That young lady is sporting a nose piercing of some sort.

Don't ask me what the hype is with body piercings but here in SF most Hipsters, alternative people and the guys in the Haight-Ashbury area sporting these, along with tattoos in excess. When she said "I like the vegan a lot..." that did it for me.  ;D
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #182 on: September 03, 2011, 09:17:03 PM »
Mike,

When using IDY instead of ADY, you have to use different percents for the IDY.

For #1 Luigi (25 pound version), you want to use 0.56437% IDY. For #3 Luigi (32 pound version), you want to use 0.44092% IDY. And for #4 Luigi (50 pound version), you want to use 0.28219% IDY. If you re-do your numbers in the expanded dough calculating tool but with the above values for IDY, I think you should be OK.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #183 on: September 03, 2011, 09:19:00 PM »
Mike,

When using IDY instead of ADY, you have to use different percents for the IDY.

For #1 Luigi (25 pound version), you want to use 0.56437% IDY. For #3 Luigi (32 pound version), you want to use 0.44092% IDY. And for #4 Luigi (50 pound version), you want to use 0.28219% IDY. If you re-do your numbers in the expanded dough calculating tool but with the above values for IDY, I think you should be OK.

Peter

Peter,

Excellent. Will modify and re-post. Thanks a bunch.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #184 on: September 03, 2011, 09:45:54 PM »
There's one other thing that got me thinking and that's about his sauce composition. Right at the beginning the blonde lady says "The sauce is very sweet...".

I use 6 in 1's ground tomatoes for my sauces and they have a certain sweetness to them but I wouldn't say that without sugar and all the spices Luigi adds that the sauce would be "very sweet", especially when one considers the mingling of the sauce and cheese and toppings. So he must be adding some sugar to it, to perhaps make the sauce stand out, offset or balance out the saltiness of the mozzarella he uses, or both. But it is not shown in the video that he actually puts sugar in.

Also, given the fact that one picture on his website in the gallery shows Full Red Heavy Puree he might have switched over instead of using his ground tomatoes as Fieri mentions in the video. I'll see if I can get a can of Full Red from my pizza guy, just to compare.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #185 on: September 03, 2011, 10:01:06 PM »
Mike,

I don't see the logic of intentionally omitting sugar in the video--and only sugar--if Luigi is actually using sugar in his sauce. The Stanislaus tomatoes are fresh-pack tomatoes that are naturally sweeter than most tomato products that you see out there, especially those made from concentrates, so it wouldn't surprise me that someone used to regular (non-fresh-pack) tomatoes that they might get at their local supermarket might find Luigi's sauce sweet. The only way to know what effect the herbs, grated cheese, etc., has on the sweetness of Luigi's sauce is to reverse engineer it to find the percents of those ingredients used.

I have learned to pretty much ignore terms like "sweet", "salty", "chewy", "crispy", "cracker-like", "thin", "thick", and so on. They mean different things to different people.

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #186 on: September 03, 2011, 10:24:27 PM »
Mike,

I don't see the logic of intentionally omitting sugar in the video--and only sugar--if Luigi is actually using sugar in his sauce. The Stanislaus tomatoes are fresh-pack tomatoes that are naturally sweeter than most tomato products that you see out there, especially those made from concentrates, so it wouldn't surprise me that someone used to regular (non-fresh-pack) tomatoes that they might get at their local supermarket might find Luigi's sauce sweet. The only way to know what effect the herbs, grated cheese, etc., has on the sweetness of Luigi's sauce is to reverse engineer it to find the percents of those ingredients used.

I have learned to pretty much ignore terms like "sweet", "salty", "chewy", "crispy", "cracker-like", "thin", "thick", and so on. They mean different things to different people.

Peter

Peter,

The reason I mentioned it was because Fieri mentions ground tomatoes when the video was taped, probably somewhere in late spring or summer 2008. The video, I believe, was posted on YouTube in Jan. 2010 so he might have switched from ground tomatoes to Heavy Puree from Stanislaus.

Regarding reverse engineering the sauce...well...I'm up for it. If we can get the sauce, too, we'd have the perfect clone. Except for the toppings and the amount of cheese, that is.
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #187 on: September 03, 2011, 10:26:01 PM »


Assuming that what I did was correct or nearly so, does anyone want to venture to guess which Luigi clone dough formulation might have been used in the video? And why?


Peter


Peter,

Since you posted if someone wanted to venture a guess which formula might be the one Luigi is using, I would venture a guess of  #2 Luigi Clone Dough Formulation.  The reason I would guess #2,  is because the amount of ADY seems like the lowest value, for a smaller than 50 lb. bag of flour.  The other values for less than 50 lb. bags of flour seem to high to me.  Also the salt in #2 seems okay to me.  I know I am probably wrong, but am just guessing.  

I canít believe you went to all the work you did today to get to where you are now in setting forth something to try.  

I probably will try a Luigiís attempt at some point in time.  

Norma

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #188 on: September 03, 2011, 10:36:38 PM »
With my next batch, I'll try a lower hydration, perhaps 62%, and see what happens.

I think it's going to be really difficult to precisely match the amount of kneading Luigi does with his Hobart with a home machine. Usually, the larger the mixer, the slower the rotation, the less agitation/gluten development, so you'll most likely want less than 15 minutes, but I really can't say how much less.

This being said, as I look at your 8 minute kneaded 65% dough, it's definitely striking me as being a bit on the slack side. Based upon those images and that knead time, I'm fully behind some 62% experimentation.

Peter, nice work on the formulas.

One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out. 

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #189 on: September 03, 2011, 10:43:54 PM »
I think it's going to be really difficult to precisely match the amount of kneading Luigi does with his Hobart with a home machine. Usually, the larger the mixer, the slower the rotation, the less agitation/gluten development, so you'll most likely want less than 15 minutes, but I really can't say how much less.

This being said, as I look at your 8 minute kneaded 65% dough, it's definitely striking me as being a bit on the slack side. Based upon those images and that knead time, I'm fully behind some 62% experimentation.

Peter, nice work on the formulas.

One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out. 

Scotty,

I have a Cuisinart SM-55 mixer with a rotating dial for Speed adjustments. I can go from extremely slow (Speed 1) to extremely fast (Speed 12). I normally choose the Speed 2 but my mixer is still no match for a Pro one. Eight minutes at Speed 2 at 62% hydration sounds about right to me, perhaps six minutes might do the trick, too.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #190 on: September 03, 2011, 11:10:59 PM »

I probably will try a Luigiís attempt at some point in time.  

Norma

Norma,

Seriously?? At some point???  :(

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half?  ::)

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   :)
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #191 on: September 03, 2011, 11:20:45 PM »
Norma,

Seriously?? At some point???  :(

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half?  ::)

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   :)

Mike,

Lol, you sure made me chuckle!  :-D To tell the truth, I donít know how to use Novemberís tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try.  :-D  I donít even know which formula to try either. 

I probably would only try one pie in my deck oven first.  My Kitchen Aid mixer can make decent dough.  I would like to see the results of one pie first, before I go about using a lot of flour or mixes of flour. 

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #192 on: September 04, 2011, 09:47:46 AM »
Since you posted if someone wanted to venture a guess which formula might be the one Luigi is using, I would venture a guess of  #2 Luigi Clone Dough Formulation.  The reason I would guess #2,  is because the amount of ADY seems like the lowest value, for a smaller than 50 lb. bag of flour.  The other values for less than 50 lb. bags of flour seem to high to me.  Also the salt in #2 seems okay to me.  I know I am probably wrong, but am just guessing.  

Norma,

I don't know at this point whether your guess is correct or not, but if you go back to Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150824.html#msg150824, you will see that I discussed the possibility of a dough doing double duty and being used to make either a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough (or even some combination of the two). You will also note that in Reply 33 I mentioned the possibility of using 0.70-0.80% ADY. That was before I did my latest weighings. That number is also in line with Luigi #1 (using 25 pounds of flour) as set forth in Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870. Also, the relatively high salt level of Luigi #1, 1.984%, would most likely result in a dough with a stronger gluten structure and be more amenable to handling without experiencing overextensibility or tearing problems. If Luigi intended for his dough to do double duty, then his terse response to Guy about fermentation would have been technically correct, even if he decided to use cold fermentation. This is, of course, only my speculation. However, you may recall from the Jet's thread that I once had a discussion with the manager of a Jet's Pizza store who told me that they made the dough early in the morning (most Jet's stores start the dough at around 9AM to be able to start making pizzas at noon) and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature, with any dough balls unused by the end of the day, or possibly even sooner based on actual demand, going into the cooler and being used the next day. The amount of yeast in the Jet's dough is quite high, in line with Luigi #1. Of course, Jet's doesn't have to worry about dough handling issues since the dough balls go into pans, not opened up by hand.

You might also recall that most of Peter Reinhart's doughs do double duty using the same quantity of yeast. Of course, most of his recipes are not intended for commercial production.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #193 on: September 04, 2011, 10:07:28 AM »
One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out.  

scott123,

I tend to agree with you. In fact, Gene (Jet_deck) reported at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151218.html#msg151218 that Luigi's is currently using 50-pound bags of flour. I think that one of the smaller bags of flour was used during the video shoot because it was convenient and easy to do. There would be no need to tear open a 50-pound bag and weigh out an amount of flour to use. If there was a commercial scale in Luigi's place capable of weighing out large quantities of flour, such as shown, for example, at 0:59 in the Lehmann-Zeak video at , I did not see it. No doubt, whatever mixer Luigi is now using can handle 50-pound bags of flour.

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #194 on: September 04, 2011, 12:43:41 PM »
Mike,

Lol, you sure made me chuckle!  :-D To tell the truth, I donít know how to use Novemberís tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try.  :-D  I donít even know which formula to try either. 

I probably would only try one pie in my deck oven first.  My Kitchen Aid mixer can make decent dough.  I would like to see the results of one pie first, before I go about using a lot of flour or mixes of flour. 

Norma

Norma,

Glad you got a chuckle out of my plea  ;D

Anyway, I made another batch last night, Luigi #1 formula, and will report back tonight on how it turned out.
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #195 on: September 04, 2011, 12:50:42 PM »
I have presented below the four Luigi clone dough formulations.

Peter, you are one in a zillion.  No man or machine can replace your intuition.  Hats off to you. :chef:
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #196 on: September 04, 2011, 12:57:44 PM »
Gene,

Thank you very much for the nice compliment. It must be the Sherlock Holmes in me.

Would you care to venture a guess on which of the four Luigi dough formulations might have come closest to the one used to do the Luigi shoot?

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #197 on: September 04, 2011, 01:00:30 PM »
To tell the truth, I donít know how to use Novemberís tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try. 

Norma,

Whenever you are ready and know which flours you want to use and the amount of formula flour, I can help you with the calculations. In your case, you might want to use a combination of the KASL and KAAP since both are unbleached and unbromated.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #198 on: September 04, 2011, 01:03:11 PM »
Quick assessment and impressions of the Pendleton Power Flour.

When I got the flour on Friday I was anxious to see how it holds up to a 65% hydration. Well, my initial reaction as you can see here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151818.html#msg151818  wasn't so great. The dough was very sticky and a little tough to work with.

However, that all changed completely when i took it out of the fridge last night, brought it up to room temp and worked with it. I can only say one thing...this is possibly the best flour I have worked with. GM's All Trumps can't hold a candle to the PPF, which is unbleached, unbromated, unmalted but enriched, whereas the 10 lbs of All Trumps I've worked with earlier this year was bromated, bleached and malted.

The feel when shaping it was an extremely smooth and silky feel and the skin was absolutely easy to open, no tearing whatsoever. A totally hassle-free experience. This flour is really a pleasure and now I know why my pizza guy said it's one of the best flours available in the industry.

Anyway, I made another batch last night, using Luigi's clone #1 formula http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151876.html#msg151876 with a 62% hydration instead of 65%.

The experience was unreal. This flour really shined with the 62% hydration. No stickiness, not hassle to work with, just pure pleasure. It might even be better at a 63% hydration. I followed Luigi's mixing procedure to the T except I mixed the dough only for 6 minutes. It didn't need more than that.

I can only advice to get your hands on this flour if you're into NY-style pizza. It's hands down the best I've experienced so far.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 01:06:59 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #199 on: September 04, 2011, 01:05:21 PM »
And the 62% hydration dough...

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein