Author Topic: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?  (Read 150145 times)

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Offline foodblogger

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2006, 11:29:54 AM »
I've looked around for KASL and the only place I can find it is online.  At this point I am not ready to pay shipping on the flour.  I'm stopping by a restaurant supply store later today for some new tools and I'll check if they have any KASL or Caputo 00.  If they don't have any KASL or Caputo I will probably just use Gold Medal Better for Bread flour.  I know that a lot of people on the forum will be screaming NO, but I have been using that flour for years and I have a pretty good feeling of how to work with it.

My adaptation of the Little Ceasars is a bit of a Frankenstein.  If I was trying to replicate Little Ceasars exactly I would probably try to use the other processing methods described in this thread.  I had planned to do that initially but I got so intrigued by the Pizza Raquel prep protocol that I simply have to try it.  Since I am using the exact same method on my other pizza I hope to be able to report how much of a difference there was using the same process but completely different doughs.


Offline foodblogger

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2006, 08:36:53 AM »
I made up the dough following the directions exactly.  A couple observations -

1)  The Kitchenaid has a much harder time working with batches that small.  The next time I make it I will probably have to make a double recipe and plan on making 2 pies.

2)  This step

Quote
6) Mix on 2/3 for 5 minutes.

probably needs to be a little more flexible depending on what flour you are using.  I followed the 5 minute time exactly but the dough didn't seem to have been worked enough.  I stuck with 5 minutes so that next time I can increase that time to test the difference.

3)  All in all the dough with its 57.1% hydration is much drier than I am used to working with.  I made another dough last night that was 63% hydration.  It will be interesting to see the difference between the two doughs with regards to shaping and the finished product.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2006, 09:03:49 AM »
foodblogger,

You are right about the inability of the standard home KitchenAid mixer to handle small amounts of dough. I had the same problem recently when making a small batch of dough based on the Raquel formulation and using the dough processing steps set forth by pftaylor. Fortunately, the dough turned out fine and it was very easy to shape and stretch.

As far as knead time is concerned, it should be adjusted on an individual basis based on the amount of dough involved and other factors. For example, a 12-ounce dough ball will not ordinarily need the same amount of kneading as a 24-ounce dough ball. However, if the mixer isn't as efficient in kneading the 12-ounce dough ball as the 24-ounce dough ball, you can still end up with a proportionately longer knead time with the 12-ounce dough ball. This is where experience steps in. The condition of the dough will preempt knead times.

An alternative you may wish to try sometime when you are making small amounts of dough is to use a food processor. When I do this, I use only the pulse feature, and occasionally a full speed run for a few seconds at the end, and I use only cold water. Doing both of these things helps keep the dough from getting too warm and keeps the dough from starting to ferment too quickly. I also don't want to overly develop the gluten.

Peter

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2006, 11:35:47 AM »
Quote
An alternative you may wish to try sometime when you are making small amounts of dough is to use a food processor. When I do this, I use only the pulse feature, and occasionally a full speed run for a few seconds at the end, and I use only cold water. Doing both of these things helps keep the dough from getting too warm and keeps the dough from starting to ferment too quickly. I also don't want to overly develop the gluten.

I have a mini Cuisinart but I have always hesitated to use it to make dough.  I remember people talking about making dough in a Cuisinart when they first got big in the US in the early 80's.  I've always been hesitant because I'm not sure what the blades would do to the dough.  One of these days I'll give it a shot, possibly a head to head comparison.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2006, 12:03:43 PM »
foodblogger,

You will need more than a mini-Cuisinart (maybe a 7-cup?). Mine is a 14-cup, but an 11-cup capacity processor will also work for the smaller amounts of dough. There is both a plastic blade and a metal blade. The plastic blade is recommended for doughs. It has a somewhat different shape than the metal blade, which is generally S-shaped, and apparently doesn't cut through the dough the same way as the metal blade. The newer Cuisinart models even have a dough cycle specifically for kneading dough. I necessarily wouldn't run out to buy another processor, and only mentioned it just in case you had a big enough processor already.

Peter

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2006, 12:30:19 PM »
I have one of those Hamilton Beach Big Mouth food processors. I wonder if making dough in that would be a good idea. I think I'll check out the specs on it.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2006, 01:11:13 PM »
Ron,

From what I can tell from a quick Google search, the Big Mouth unit is a 14-cup unit. The unit can be used to make enough dough for two loaves of bread. You should be OK. The unit even has four speeds, along with a pulse feature, which should give you even better control over things.

If you are interested, I recently gave some tips on how to use a Cuisinart food processor for making a NY style dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.0.html. The principles would be the same, however, for most other processors and doughs.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 01:15:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2006, 12:33:49 PM »
I just made the sauce up.  It was tasty but I couldn't resist spicing it up a bit.  The recipe as is was pretty bland.  I went to Sam's Club today and low and behold a 5 pound bag of Stella mootzarel!

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2006, 06:52:42 PM »
Pizza is done and eaten.  It was a really good example of the typical American pizza chain, only a little better do to better ingredients.  As expected with the 57% hydration, the crust had uniform bread like bubbles.  I took photos, but it was with a film camera.  My digital camera jumped to its death after photographing schawarma about a month ago.  I'll post when I get them developed.

I ended up using a blackened steel pan dusted with corn meal as suggested by one of the posters above.  I placed the pan on a baking stone on the lowest rack in a 550 degree oven with another stone on a rack 7.5 inches above to provide top heat.  Everything got done at the same time so I think I will stick with that oven configuration when making this type of pie.

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2006, 11:08:07 AM »
I finally got my photos back.  Here is a photo of a pie using the recipe above.


Offline foodblogger

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2006, 11:09:02 AM »
And here is a slice. 

Offline IlliniPizza

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2006, 04:42:56 PM »
I made Randy's American Style Recipe this weekend.  For a while now I have been trying to perfect Little Caesar's Pizza Dough.  Thou Randy's is very good, it doesn't quite have the same flavor that Little Caesars has, it tastes more like Papa Johns.

After making the pizza these are some of the proposed changes.

Instead of Honey use Lite Corn Syrup, and instead of Olive Oil, use Vegetable Oil.  I use to work at a little caesars about 12 years ago, I wish I had paid more attention now. 

A few of questions for the "Experts",

1.  Little Caesars seems to have more spring then Randy's American Style. Could this be due to the amount of yeast.  I let it rise for about an hour in the pan, but it doesn't have spring when baked that caesars does.  Would more yeast result in a better spring?  If I recall from my little caesars days we only punched it down once & not twice would this make a difference?

2.  Randy's crust browns pretty quickly, I know this is due in part to the sugar in the dough, I also know Little Caesars has quite a bit of sugar in their dough.  Could the increased browning be due to the type of sugar i.e. Honey.

3.  Peter Reinhart wrote in his book the Bread Baker's Apprentice that to get good Voids you needed to knead less, because overkneaded dough lead to uniform voids, like bread.  Would Randy's pizza benefit from less knead time.

Has anyone tried any of these suggestions.  I love caesars pizza since I was a kid, and would like to get as close as possible to the real recipe.  We have a good start with Randy's Recipe.

Also if anyone has any suggestions on improving the Sauce, this is the closest I have ever come to the original sauce, the recipe on the Top Secret Recipe site is off by a mile.  This one is closer, but still not quite their, I know they use fresh spices and this one uses dried spices.  Would that make a difference?

Thanks for all the help.  I wish I had more time to experiment.


Offline IlliniPizza

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2006, 02:59:55 PM »
Little Caesars Experiment:

I took Randy's American Pizza Recipe and I modified it slightly to get it to closer resemble Little Caesars.

These are the changes.

 - I increased the yeast by 25%, I use SAF Bakers Yeast (compressed cake).

 - I exchanged the honey in the recipe oz. for oz. for Lite Corn Syrup.

 - I reduced the salt in the recipe by half.

 - I used Vegetable Oil instead of Olive Oil

 - I used the Little Caesars Sauce recipe I posted earlier, and a 65% Part Skim, Low Moisture Mozz. to 35% Muenster Cheese Blend.


Results: 

This is the closest I have ever come to the actual recipe.  It is very, very close.  It still wouldn't pass a blind taste test, but It is very good.

In future experiments, I may increase the amount of Vegetable Oil used and decrease the Water.

I also, made Little Caesars Bread Sticks using the changes above, and I am pretty certain they would pass a blind taste test.

Any Comments?

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2006, 11:15:11 PM »
Illini, I will try it this weekend.  Thanks for the post and the continued research/experimentation.

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2006, 11:28:48 PM »
Illini (or anyone for that matter)
It's been too long since I have eaten a good Little Caesar's pie, but what I remember about the crust was that it had a buttery coating on the outside, with what I think was ground parmesian lightly sprinkled...am I way off here or is my memory serving me correctly?

How would you go about re-creating that aspect of their pizza?  Randy's recipe is great (the greatest), but it still tends to be more Papa Johns-like in my experience.  It is drier on its exterior, where as I remember LC being a little greasy (in a good way though).

I am guessing this is not a pre-bake addition.  I am thinking they might brush it on after they bake.  Still, brushing butter onto what I remember the texture of Randy's crust to be like wouldn't quite get you there. 

Any thoughts?

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2006, 04:35:20 PM »
On another thread, Petezzza gave me some ideas that I am going to infuse into your recipe, Illini.  To attain the "buttery" flavor of LC's crust, I am going to replace the soybean oil in your recipe with melted butter (well, margerine).  I also am going to brush butter on the crust after finished.

I'm looking forward to seeing how corn syrup works in lieu of honey.
I'll post my results/opinion at some point after Friday's pizza.

Offline IlliniPizza

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2006, 05:10:16 PM »
I worked for a Little Caesars about 10 years ago, when I was a kid who didn't care about cooking, I never made the dough, because it was made early in the morning, and I usually never worked before 1 O'clcok.

After posting, I picked up a pizza from caesars, and realized that their was something missing in the crust.  Its a buttery, parmasean flavor.  I vaguely remember that when a pizza came out of the oven it was many times coated  with the same brushed used on the crazy bread. 

Caesars crust has more of a soft leathery crust, similar to a New York style pizza.  Randy's tend to have a crunchier crust.  Margarine may be the key!

I know when we panned the dough, we never used a dough dressing, before putting the sauce on.  I am not sure if they added some parmasean or butter during the actual dough making process, but I may try that next.

I am glad you guys mentioned it, because I was about to update the post, because I realized that the crust was missing some flavor. 


Caesars Variation to try next:

          - Add Butter ie margarine to the dough

          - Add some parmasean during the dough process, and after to see the difference.

Adding parmasean during the dough making process reminds me of cheesy biscuits like you get at red lobster, I think it would melt very uniform in the crust. 

I do remember some of the stuff we used at little caesars, it was pretty basic stuff, not a lot of chemistry.  I have noticed that the sauce recipe I posted is very close.  Don't use the recipe from the Top Secret Recipe site, its not even close!  Mine is really close, but its missing something.  I know we used Hunts Tomato paste for the sauce, we watered it down, and simmered it for 30-40 mins. in big stock pots, but when I simmer it tends to darken in color and take on a smoky flavor, where as caesars is very fresh.  I don't know if they add lemon juice, or citric acid to the sauce to maintain the fresh flavor and color.

Another thing I remember is that Little Caesars dough, we would stretch by hand after being sheeted, and it would stretch very easily, but not quite as easily as Randy's.  I have a hard time with randy's because when I stretch it by hand, it will almost stretch thru in the middle.  Caesars had a slightly firmer texture.  Would anyone know what might be responsible for the difference, knead time?, hydration %.

Good Luck, Hopefully we can crack this recipe.  If their are any Caesars people out their who would like to share, please chime in.
     


Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2006, 08:33:44 PM »


I know when we panned the dough, we never used a dough dressing, before putting the sauce on.  I am not sure if they added some parmasean or butter during the actual dough making process, but I may try that next.



What do you mean by a "dough dressing"?

Before I got turned on to hi-gluten flour, I was trying everything I could to get a better taste out of my general flour.  Towards the end of my regular flour days, before conversion to hi-glutes, I was taking whatever the measurement for flour was and making 1/4 to 1/3 of that amount parmesian cheese...in other words, 3/4 flour 1/4 parmesian cheese.  It was decent, for general flour crust.  I haven't tried that since conversion, though.  It might be worth investigating again.

Not that you are looking in this area, but last weekend, I took Randy's recipe but used milk instead of water.  I remember reading a post by Petezzza where he commented on being able to get a "browner" crust with milk/powdered milk, and what Papa Johns crust seems to have that Randy's doesn't is a darker crust (otherwise, they are fairly similar).  I was pretty happy with the results; although I still didn't get the brown-coloration I was looking for, it seemed to even closer resemble the Papa Johns flavor than my previous Randy recipe creations had.

Anyhow, wrong thread for that thought probably.  I'm off to go make my LC dough for tomorrow, complete with Lite Corn Syrup and margerine instead of soybean oil.  After cooking it, I'll brush it over with a parmesian/melted butter mix and hope for the best.  This weekend will also be my first time using tiles...so I could have a major breakthrough this weekend...or it could be a disaster.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 08:35:41 PM by ihavezippers »

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2006, 10:41:13 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and post my recipe alterations tonight, seeing as once I actually cook the pizza, I'll either lose my alteration measurements or otherwise be too lazy to post.  I used Randy's recipe in the beginning of this thread as the base to start from; this is slightly different than the Randy's recipe I've used in the past...infact, the mixed dough ended up being wet and sticky, and I had to add approximately one cup of flour to get it manageable.

2 & 1/2 c H.G. flour
1/2 c ground parmesian cheese
1 c + 2 tbl water (a google search told me this is the equivalent of 9oz water)
2 tbl sugar
1 tbl corn syrup
2 tsp salt
1 & 1/2 to 2 tbl melted margarine

This recipe is not including the extra cup of flour I added afterwards.  After mixing, I got this yellow wet ball that just didn't look right at all, hence more flour...maybe I should have left it the way it was.

Anyhow, we'll see how it goes.  I'm going to make Illini's sauce as well, except use Stanislaus Tomato Magic in lieu of Hunts and the water.
Unfortunately, I don't have any Muenster blocks laying around...so, my cheese will be 50% low moisture mozzerella, 40% (regular?) mozzerella, 10% sharp cheddar.

Offline IlliniPizza

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Re: Little Caesars Dough Recipe?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2006, 10:14:04 AM »

Dough Dressing is what some pizzamakers brush on their panned dough before adding the sauce.  Its usually oil, or butter with a little garlic.  Its used mainly to keep the watery sauce from soaking into the dough, and making the pizza soggy.  The cliche about water and oil don't mix, it acts as a barrier. 

I am going to make a pizza this weekend.  I don't think I will use margarine exclusively, I will probably use a blend of margarine and vegetable oil (soybean oil).  I remember from Little Caesar's we had a lot of Vegetable Oil and a lot of margarine.  The margarine was always used for the butter sauce that we slathered on the breadsticks, so I don't know if any of it made it into the dough, but the vegetable I know did.

Good luck, hope to see your results.