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Offline Adam T

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Minimal kneading technique
« on: August 15, 2011, 12:00:12 PM »
Doctor Tom,

This discussion was brought up in the thread, "Non stick mats for kneading pizza dough" http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14203.0.html

If you could I'd like you to expound on this topic or clarify a few things for me. Thanks.

...put the water in the mixing bowl, add the yeast to the water and stir to suspend if using compressed yeast, you must prehydrate either IDY or ADY prior to adding it to the water.


Prehydrate prior to adding it to the water? Wait, does this mean I need to add the IDY or ADY yeast to water before I add it to the water?


Quote
Then add the flour, and remainder of ingredients. Using a wood spoon (more on that shortly) stir the mass until it is wet and sticky. Remove  the spoon and lightly cover to prevent drying, allow to ferment for 2 to 5-hours, turn out onto a floured bench top, fold the dough several times (I'm hesitant to call this kneading), lightly oil the bowl that the dough was fermented in, and place the dough back into the bowl to ferment for another 30 to 60-minutes.


Not being that well versed in baking I have to ask, what is involved in the folding? Is that similar to the kneading method where you press the dough flat with the palm of your hand, fold in half, turn the dough 90 degrees, and repeat?

Quote
Turn the dough out onto your bench top and cut into desired size pieces, then shape into pizza skins for immediate use.


I have been operating under the impression that you want to handle the dough, when forming the skin into a pizza, as little as possible especially near the rim (cornicione?) to prevent the dough from degassing.

Quote
The gluten development in this case is accomplished through what is known as biochemical gluten development. You can also get it by managing the dough through the cooler overnight too.


So if I develop gluten structure through kneading it's still going to do it's "biochemical gluten development" during it's fermentation also right? Does this tend to over develop the gluten in the dough?


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 01:03:41 PM »
Adam;
Due to the fact that during hand mixing of the dough there is a possibility that the ingredients, especially the yeast won't be uniformly dispursed throughout the dough mass. This is the reason why we like to suspend the compressed yeast in the water prior to adding it to the dough. In the case of ADY, it has to be pre-hydrated in water at 100F before addition, but once it has been hydrated, you can safely add it to the regular dough water for addition. In the case of IDY, while it doesn't need to be pre-hydrated when a mechanical mixer is used, when hand mixing, it is suggested that it first be pre-hydrated in 95F water, and then added to the regular dough water for addition.
Folding the dough is indeed the same as kneeding it, but in this application we are only folding/kneading it a few times, not for several minutes as many typically do.
When forming the dough piece into a pizza skin, we begin opening the dough ball from the center out, without ever touching the outer edge of the dough piece. This provides for a light, very porous rim to the baked crust. In some cases we will use a rolling pin to pin out the dough ball to only about 2/3 of the desired diameter, and then complete the opening process by hand stretching. This process also results in a decent raised edge. The main difference between mechanical gluten development and biochemical gluten development is that biochemical gluten development, when taken at the right time gives you full gluten development without any toughness or memory in the dough, while a dough that is mechanically mixed to full gluten development will be tough and rubbery. There is nothing to fear when hand mixing or kneading and then giving the dough time to ferment for biochemical gluten development as this will not result in excessive gluten development, but do keep in mind that the time needed for complete biochemical gluten development may be a little shorter when a significant amount of kneading has already been done to the dough. I hope I have answered your questions, please feel free to ask if you should have any more questions.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 03:18:28 PM »
Ah, thank you for clearing up the prehydrating the yeast issue. Most of the time I warm the complete amount of recipe water to about 110F and mix the yeast into all the water. It seems so obvious now what you were referring to was using a small amount of warm water (~100F ADY or ~95F IDY)  to hydrate the yeast while the rest of the recipe water is cold or room temperature depending on what the recipe requires.

Is there a hydration percentage that you have found to be a minimum or maximum to use this technique with?

The more pizzas I make the more I am looking for minimalist methods to achieve great results with. This style of mixing and kneading the dough certainly fits into that philosophy. I'd like to use a minimal kneading method for all my NY or American style doughs. Why do extra work for no reason?!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 08:45:45 AM »
Adam;
I'm like you, and firmly believe in the KISS principal, so, following this rule, I like to say "use between 1/2 and 1-cup of water to hydrate the yeast in.
One question that I always ask our students: What one common denominator do water, electricity and man all have in common?
Answer: They all take the path of least resistance.
I'm with you, keep it simple.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 10:33:50 AM »
I found the page on Wikipedia regarding no knead bread interesting since in principle the same process is happening in the little to no knead pizza dough.

Quote
From Wikipeida... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knead_bread

Method

[Recipe Not included Here but can be found on the original Wikipedia page]
(this recipe) produce(s) a wet, sticky dough. The dough is allowed to rise, covered, for 12 to 18 hours until doubled in size and covered with bubbles, then scraped onto a floured surface and allowed to rise, covered, for another hour or two.

The method uses a long rise instead of kneading to align the flour's gluten molecules with each other so as to produce a strong, elastic network, which results in long, sticky strands. The automatic alignment is possible because of the wetness of the dough, which makes the molecules more mobile.[2] Wet doughs, which use a weight of water of about 75% that of the flour, require more salt than conventional doughs, about 2% of the flour weight.[3]


2.^ a b Bittman, Mark (8 November 2006). "The Secret of Great Bread: Let Time Do the Work". New York Times. Retrieved 25 June 2011.
3.^ McGee, Harold (23 February 2010). "Better Bread With Less Kneading". New York Times. Retrieved 25 June 2011.


I'm going to see if I can round up a Lehmann Dough recipe that will work well with KA Bread flour (maybe with or maybe without VWG added) and give this method a try as soon as possible. My cordierite sone hasn't arrived yet so I may be baking in a 550F oven on a pizza screen only.

I may also have to try this "Lazy Man's Bread" recipe in between pizzas just to work on the technique. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13613.0.html

Thanks again for your help and contributions to pizza making Tom!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 03:44:53 PM »
I'm like you, and firmly believe in the KISS principal, so, following this rule, I like to say "use between 1/2 and 1-cup of water to hydrate the yeast in.


Tom,

Based on what I learned from you from your posts over at the PMQ Thin Tank, my practice has been to recommend that members use an amount of the total formula water equal to about four to five times the weight of the ADY to prehydrate the ADY. See, for example, Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13858.msg139192/topicseen.html#msg139192. For many of our members, a cup of water can represent the total formula water. We have had many members use the entire formula water to prehydrate the ADY (at around 105-115 degrees F) and end up with doughs that ferment too quickly.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 04:05:32 PM »
Peter;
You are correct. The usual recommendation is to use about 4 to 5 times the weight of yeast as water to hydrate it in. When I teach home pizza baking most of the time we are using a pound or more of flour so the total weight of water will be at a cup or more, putting the amount of water used for hydrating the yeast in at most 1/2 cup, but probably better at 1/4 cup or even a little less. I stand corrected.
The main thing I try to teach is that the amount of water used to hydrate the yeast in isn't as important as having enough water left over to add at a lower temperature to achieve the desired finished dough temperature.
Thanks for calling that one.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 10:58:15 AM »
So I mixed up a batch of pizza dough last night trying to minimally knead it. First I measured and sifted the KABF. Then I measured out the room temperature water removing a small amount and heating it in the microwave to about 100F. In the unheated water I dissolved the kosher salt and mixed in the oil. In the heated water I dissolved the IDY let set for a couple of minutes then mixed all the water together. I then dumped the wet mix into the bread flour bowl and mixed with a spoon.

When the ingredients were getting close to a cohesive ball I mixed with my hands mainly trying to incorporate any lumps of flour I found. The dough seemed dryer than I expected (as a note I've been baking 80% Hydration "Lazy Man's Bread" lately and have gotten used to a really wet dough) so I decided to up the hydration to 70%. I gently folded in 7% (of flour weight) additional water. Before the 30 minute rest the dough didn't fully absorb the additional water yet but it mostly was in the dough.

I let the dough sit in the bowl on the counter for a half hour. I then folded the dough, "mini folds", about 25 times. After folding I balled the dough, put it back into the bowl and put it into the fridge overnight. (Mini fold description, "...pick up an edge of the wet dough and pull it towards the center and push down.  Rotate the bowl and repeat.")

This morning I did about 6 mini folds, re-balled and placed back in the bowl and back into the fridge.

I plan on baking the pizza tonight. 550F on a preheated stone (relatively thin Pampered Chef stone).

Recipe: (adapted from http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635)
KA bread flour (100%)
Water (63%) (an additional 7% was added at the end of hand mixing and gently incorporated = 70% Total Hydration)
Salt (1.75%)
Oil (1.0%)
IDY (0.25%)

(Lazy Man Bread Recipe for reference: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13613.0.html)

The reason I added the extra 7% water was two fold (no pun intended). 1... I have been making 80% Hydration bread dough and that influenced my perception of just how wet the dough was. And 2... I was afraid the 63% hydration wouldn't allow the gluten molecules to be mobile enough to achieve the biochemical gluten development.

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 11:01:33 AM »
Is there a minimum flour to water hydration ratio that a no-knead pizza dough requires for effective biochemical gluten development? Can I do this with 55% hydration? (e.g. 100 grams flour, 55 grams water)
60%?

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 12:26:47 PM »
I plan on baking the pizza tonight. 550F on a preheated stone (relatively thin Pampered Chef stone).

Recipe: (adapted from http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635)
KA bread flour (100%)
Water (63%) (an additional 7% was added at the end of hand mixing and gently incorporated = 70% Total Hydration)
Salt (1.75%)
Oil (1.0%)
IDY (0.25%)


I baked up those pizzas. The first dough ball was really difficult to open up, I blame that on the dough only being out of the fridge for half an hour. The second pizza opened up a little easier. The pizzas turned out pretty good, the crumb was a little more bread-like than I would prefer. I baked these pizzas at 550F for 6.5 minutes. I think I need more oven heat to get a more open and airy crust.


Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 12:27:51 PM »
The second pizza

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 10:59:24 AM »
Adam;
We do cracker type crust this way and we use only 45% dough absorption. There is still a lot of dry flour in the bowl after we mix it, but by the following day, after 4-hours at room temperature plus overnight in the fridge, we have a cohesive dough mass that can be folded a couple times (literally) and then portioned and formed into balls (not very pretty dough balls). The dough balls are then allowed to ferment at room temperature until they can be opened into pizza skins using a rolling pin (remember, this is a thin, cracker type crust).
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 09:19:48 PM »
Adam;
We do cracker type crust this way and we use only 45% dough absorption.

Wow that is a pretty dry dough. I guess it will work with most any hydration percentage.

This past weekend I was making some more bread to test the minimal kneading method and just about the time I was going to form the dough into a few boules my family got hungry for some home made pizza.

The recipe was as follows.
King Arthur Bread Flour
70% Water
7% Starter (50/50 Flour Water mix)
2.5% Salt

I dissolved the starter and salt in the room temperature water and then mixed in with the flour with a wooden spoon.
Then with my fingers I made sure there were no dry clumps of flour left in the mix.
I let the mix sit for about a half an hour. When I came back to the dough, keeping it in the bowl, I folded it in half maybe about 20 times.
The dough sat in the bowl for an hour or so again and I folded maybe about 8 to 12 times.
12 hours after mixing the dough had doubled in volume. I gently scraped it out onto the counter and cut enough dough out for a 14" pizza. I gently balled up the dough and let it proof for 1/2 or 3/4 of an hour before stretching into a skin and topping.

It's amazing that dough can be made with only 3 ingredients and still have so much flavor. The crust on this pizza turned out great! This is the lightest crumb to a pizza crust I have made yet. In the future if I'm planning on pizza I'll probably add some oil to help the extensibility. I'll also reduce the water % for a quicker bake time (not to mention fewer toppings and less cheese).

Thanks again for your advice Doctor Tom.

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 12:38:46 PM »
King Arthur Bread Flour
65% Water
7% Starter (50/50 Flour Water mix)
2.5% Salt
1% Oil

Pretty much the same mixing method as described in reply #12 which is dissolving starter and salt in water then mixing with flour until all the four is incorporated into the dough and all lumps are mixed in by hand. Then the mix sits for 1/2 hour before folding over about 15 to 20 times. The dough sat covered in the mixing bowl for 8 hours then I cut the dough into individual pizzas and gently balled. The dough balls sate covered on the counter for another 4 hours and the were baked.

This method is so simple! There must be a reason why people still spend a lot of time kneading their pizza dough and then also add a long ferment too. Is there any benefit to mechanically kneading a dough that will also be fermented for 12+ hours? Is it just habit for people to mechanically knead (or hand knead) their dough?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2011, 01:24:11 PM »
This method is so simple! There must be a reason why people still spend a lot of time kneading their pizza dough and then also add a long ferment too. Is there any benefit to mechanically kneading a dough that will also be fermented for 12+ hours? Is it just habit for people to mechanically knead (or hand knead) their dough?

Adam T,

Many of our members use far less starter than you are using and many of them also use a 00 flour that requires a longer knead time to properly develop the gluten. The ambient room temperature can also be a factor. Also, some people like to use a longer fermentaion time to coax more byproducts of fermentation out of their doughs that contribute to the flavor, taste, aroma, color and texture of the finished crust.

Peter

Offline Adam T

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2011, 02:59:49 PM »
Adam T,

Many of our members use far less starter than you are using and many of them also use a 00 flour that requires a longer knead time to properly develop the gluten. The ambient room temperature can also be a factor. Also, some people like to use a longer fermentation time to coax more byproducts of fermentation out of their doughs that contribute to the flavor, taste, aroma, color and texture of the finished crust.

Peter


Thanks Peter. I'm afraid that I wasn't very clear on my last question. I understand the longer fermentation times due to temperature retarding the raise, amounts of yeast affecting affecting the time it takes to raise, and also that different "flavor, taste, aroma, color and texture" can come from longer fermentation times.

What puzzles me is developing the gluten structure mechanically (with a mixer or by hand kneading) when with minimal effort the bio-chemical kneading the job will get done just as well. It seems to me I've read the "window pane" test has kind of fallen by the wayside for testing pizza dough that will undergo a long cold fermentation.

For example the first pizza that I attempted to make at home was Randy's "Papa John's Pizza" recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.msg48500.html#msg48500). I LOVED this recipe, by the way, and made it for a long time. The recipe specifies "Knead for 6  minutes stop mixer for 5 minutes then start mixer back on knead speed for 6 more minutes." And eventually, "Finish knead on a lightly floured surface and shape into a ball  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil. for overnight up to three days."

My question is could I have followed the recipe but utilized the "minimal kneading" technique (if you can call it kneading) instead of kneading for 12  minutes and then finish kneading by hand and still expect excellent results? Would my 24 hour cold raise dough be missing something if I didn't knead it mechanically in the mixer?

Unless you were saying in your reply that 00 flour doesn't perform well with bio-chemical kneading?

Hmmm... maybe I'll have to try Randy's recipe now with the different mixing technique.

Randy's "Papa John's Pizza"
Flour (100%)
Water (60.6%)
IDY (1.6%)
Salt (2.5%)
Olive Oil (3%)
Sugar (5.3%)
Honey (4.6%)

The recipe I've been using lately
Flour (100%)
Water (65%)
Starter (7%)
Salt (2.5%)
Olive Oil (1%)

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2011, 03:55:14 PM »

What puzzles me is developing the gluten structure mechanically (with a mixer or by hand kneading) when with minimal effort the bio-chemical kneading the job will get done just as well. It seems to me I've read the "window pane" test has kind of fallen by the wayside for testing pizza dough that will undergo a long cold fermentation.

...

My question is could I have followed the recipe but utilized the "minimal kneading" technique (if you can call it kneading) instead of kneading for 12  minutes and then finish kneading by hand and still expect excellent results? Would my 24 hour cold raise dough be missing something if I didn't knead it mechanically in the mixer?

The recipe I've been using lately
Flour (100%)
Water (65%)
Starter (7%)
Salt (2.5%)
Olive Oil (1%)

Adam - You can achieve the results you want using many different techniques. But you should first analyze why you are using them in the first place to make a more informed decision on the final product. For instance, a cold fermentation is meant to hold a dough over until it is needed, giving you a large window of opportunity for baking. It just so happens that yeast activity slows down and bacterial takes over. That also means you do not need to do much on the front end in terms of mixing as the fermentation will develop structural gluten. Now if you need a dough done the same day, you mix it much more up front to compensate for the lack of fermentation time - the gluten is developed mechanically instead of bio-mechanically (scott123 is going to freak out on me when he reads this!).

I will say, though, that the amount of starter you are using (7%) is more in line with an 15 hour room temp ferment in the 75 degree range. Starters, in my opinion, are not meant to be used in a completely cold fermented regimen. They work best at room temp - or at the very least, allowed to do most of the initial fermentation at room temp and retarded for the final rise.

John

Offline scott123

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2011, 08:04:26 AM »
Now if you need a dough done the same day, you mix it much more up front to compensate for the lack of fermentation time - the gluten is developed mechanically instead of bio-mechanically (scott123 is going to freak out on me when he reads this!).

No freak out here. My therapist has been a tremendous aid in helping me to cope with the term 'bio-mechanical.' Every day and in every way, I am getting better and better.

*blink*

Seriously, though, terminology niggling aside, your advice is sound.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2011, 08:38:32 AM »
Nice post John.  Adam, from your question, you asked if your dough would be missing anything if you made it by using a hand technique versus mixing it with a mixer.  The answer is NO.  Dough will build gulten just by sitting around (no knead technique) but will develop that gluten much more readily when you physically agitate it, whether by hand or by mixer.   Generally speaking, the faster and more you agitate it the faster the gluten will develop.  This development also occurs more readily when we use higher protein flours and lower hydrations.  

BTW, even in a no knead situation, you are still developing the gluten through some folds.  Even though its "no knead", the process is essentially achieving similar results to kneading the dough.  Kneading is for the purpose of developing the gluten and strengthening the dough, it's not simply done out of habit.  BUT yes, I do think that far too many recipes copy other recipes knead times without any thought given to development of the dough (gluten), hydration levels, strength of flour, oil vs no oil, amount of salt, etc.  Even following recipes blindly, you can make dough.  It may not be the best dough, but it will make dough.   This is why you can hand a dozen people the same recipe and get a dozen different results.  You have too many factors involved in making dough that simply isn't translated through recipes to get consistent results.  Not to mention, all the changes people will make to those recipes and their unique experiences (or lack of) that they bring to the (kitchen) table.  

Back some time, I had the same question as you wondering if how gluten was developed made a difference or not.   I posted about it in this thread

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.40.html

My quest at the time was to try and achieve Tartine bread (hand folds) results using a mixer.  I thought that if the dough wasn't over mixed, it was possible.  So I agree with John.  There are many ways to get to the same desire crumb using different methods and mixers, but it all requires lots of experimentation and an understanding of what you are doing.  

Hope that helps,
Chau
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 08:40:06 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Minimal kneading technique
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2011, 09:28:25 AM »
Adam T,

If I understood your posts at Replies 12 and 13 correctly, the doughs described there were fermented at room temperature. Is that correct? Either way, as the other members have noted, the type and amount of kneading will usually be dictated by the type of dough and pizza you are trying to make and when you plan to use it.

In the case of Randy's recipe, Randy described what he apparently found worked best for him. However, his recipe could also have been practiced with hand kneading rather than using a stand mixer, although the hand kneading couldn't be too minimal because of the use of high-gluten flour and the need to get some development of the gluten. Also, by my calculation, Rendy's recipe makes around 28.40 ounces of dough. That can take some time to knead by hand. For lesser amounts of dough, I have found that hand kneading works well for an American style dough like Randy's. As an example, see Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672. The recipe shown there is quite similar to Randy's recipe, with essentially the same effective hydration (around 61%) and a lot of sugar and oil and yeast. I had no problem kneading the dough by hand. In my case, the kneading might have been a bit easier since I was using bread flour rather than high-gluten flour. You can also see another example of a hand-kneaded American style dough--in this case one of my Papa John's clone doughs--at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312.

You are correct that using the windowpane gluten test at the time of making the dough has somewhat fallen out of favor. Tom Lehmann never advocated using that test at the dough making stage but Peter Reinhart recommended it for years, including in his book American Pie. More recently, it appears that Peter has backed off from recommending the windowpane gluten test at the dough making stage (see, for example, the recipes at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/92-classic-pizza-dough-neo-neapolitan-style.html and http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/71-country-pizza-dough.html). I have no idea as to why or how that change of position occurred, or whether it was permanent or recipe-specific.

Peter


 

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