Author Topic: Slowing down a Santos Mixer  (Read 13284 times)

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Offline apizza

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Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« on: August 19, 2011, 11:55:24 AM »
One way to slow the Santos down is to run it on 50 HZ power. Their spec (#18)  says fork rotation is 84 RPM at 60 HZ and 70 RPM at 50 HZ. For what I suspect is a lot of money an inverter will convert 12 DC (car battery?) to 120 V 50 HZ power. This one has a 50/60 HZ switch.
http://www.samlexamerica.com/
Under select a model scroll down to SA-2000K-112.
Or maybe a small European generator. Not cheap either. Perhaps some of our international members have some ideas on how to get a 50 HZ source in the USA.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 11:59:11 AM by apizza »


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2011, 06:28:21 PM »
One way to slow the Santos down is to run it on 50 HZ power. Their spec (#18)  says fork rotation is 84 RPM at 60 HZ and 70 RPM at 50 HZ. For what I suspect is a lot of money an inverter will convert 12 DC (car battery?) to 120 V 50 HZ power. This one has a 50/60 HZ switch. http://www.samlexamerica.com/ Under select a model scroll down to SA-2000K-112. Or maybe a small European generator. Not cheap either. Perhaps some of our international members have some ideas on how to get a 50 HZ source in the USA.


Dear Apizza, it was awfully kind of you to do research on this subject and advise me accordingly. I thank you very much! I will keep your advice in mind. I am confident that I will eventually tame the beast! In about a couple of months, I am supposed to meet an electric engineer who actually used to work on armatures in surgical devices used for cutting human skull. Again, I thank you and have a great weekend!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 07:17:31 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Zeppi

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2011, 07:27:56 PM »
Dear Omid !

Sorry for the late reply about the Santos speed but family
health issues was in my menu for the last two weeks but
everything's fine now.

I emailed Mr. Fouquet from Santos about the speed issue and I'm waiting for his
reply and I also invited him to be part of this forum but I dont know
if he can speak english so I'll know this week and will keep you informed.


Regards!..................Louis

Offline chrisgraff

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 08:21:28 AM »
Dear Chrisgraff, I went to make some comments about your yesterday post re your experimentations with "effective hydration", but the post is gone! I do remember that you refrigerated the dough for about over 12 hours or more in the process of effectively hydrating it. I would personally avoid any refrigeration, which can cause the dough itself to toughen and, hence, not to be conducive to kneading afterward. Also, 12 hours or so is quite excessive. Have a great weekend!

My fault, Omid.  The conversation seemed to have turned toward the Santos.  More importantly, My experiments were an unqualified disaster!  Not enough time hydrating (3 hours at 74˚F), and forgetting to add the salt until the very end.  15 hours later (at 74˚F), the dough balls were overblown & literally deflated like a balloon (probably from the salt).

Interestingly enough, the finshed crust had a distinct sour note.  My preferment produces a mild sweetness after a five-day cold rise; Surprising that such a relatively strong flavor could come from a 15 hour room temp rise.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 01:15:22 AM »
Congratulations on your new mixer.


One way to slow the Santos down is to run it on 50 HZ power. . . .


I emailed Mr. Fouquet from Santos about the speed. . . .


After checking out the specifications of the Santos Mixer (No. 18) online and scrutinizing its schematic, an electrician friend of my wife's brother-in-law thinks that the following is a solution to reducing the fork speed of the Santos mixer without making any modifications at all to the mixer itself:

Variac Autotransformer
Input: 120 volt AC
Output: 0~130 volt AC
VA: 1000VA
10 Amp. Max (surge)
Cost $149.00
http://www.officebeyond.com/vaau.html?gclid=CNfPtumm2qoCFWFjTAodm2W86A

He stated in his email: "The only way I know of that won't mess up the mixer is to use a 110 volt AC Variac.....it will work as a speed control and change the power factor . . . but u don't want it to run too slowly or it will burn up the mixer!" He thinks that setting the Variac to 90 Volts—never lower or it would be risky—should accomplish the desired speed. So, basically the Variac needs to be plugged in to my home electric outlet (110 V) and the Santos mixer (100-120 V; 50/60 Hz; 650 W; 650 W ÷ 110 V = 5.9 Amp) will be plugged in to the electric outlet on the Variac. Next, the rotary dial on top of the Variac needs to be set to 90 Volts in order to deliver about 50 RPM fork speed. I will let you guys know when I try this.

Update: I have communicated with several concerned individuals who claim to have tried the above procedure without success. Please beware!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 11:19:08 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline chrisgraff

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 08:16:26 AM »
1. Check the output of the Variac with a voltmeter every time you use it.  Those units are dependent on input voltage - the numbers on the variac will always be a bit off!

2. Will a variac work with an AC motor?  Many recommend against it.  Starving the motor of voltage will cause it to heat...I would keep an eye on that.

110v to 115v might be a better place to start for the sake of your mixer.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 09:38:34 AM »
1. Check the output of the Variac with a voltmeter every time you use it.  Those units are dependent on input voltage - the numbers on the variac will always be a bit off!

2. Will a variac work with an AC motor?  Many recommend against it.  Starving the motor of voltage will cause it to heat...I would keep an eye on that.

110v to 115v might be a better place to start for the sake of your mixer.

Dear Chrisgraff, I thank you for your advice, which I will keep in mind. In regard to your question (Will a Variac work with an AC motor?), the answer initially was "yes", but now I really do not know! And, according to the website that sells the unit, Variac has an output of "0~130 volt AC".

Like you, the electrician advised me the same: "Starving the motor of voltage will cause it to heat." Consequently, he asked me not to go any lower than 90 Volts. Currently I am awaiting a response from another electrician friend of mine, who has tentatively agreed to the solution propounded above. I will inform you of his solution. Good day!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 10:59:56 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline redsun100

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 04:12:18 PM »
Hello all,
 thank you for this nice thread and this beautiful forum ;)
I have a question about this santos fork mixer, what is the minimum dough she can handle?
All i found is the max. which is 5 KG.
Thank you
kriss

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 04:34:19 PM »

All i found is the max. which is 5 KG.


Welcome, Kriss. It depends on how much manual assistance you want to give - typically with something like a spoon to keep the bowl rotating even if there is little dough. It also depends on the consistency of the dough. I typically avoid batches smaller than 1kg, but I have done as small of 500g.


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 05:15:04 PM »
I have a question about this santos fork mixer, what is the minimum dough she can handle?

Welcome, Kriss. It depends on how much manual assistance you want to give - typically with something like a spoon to keep the bowl rotating even if there is little dough. It also depends on the consistency of the dough. I typically avoid batches smaller than 1kg, but I have done as small of 500g.

Dear Kriss, welcome! I am fully agreeable to the comments made by Mr. Bill/SFNM. And, I would like to add the following. . . . Fundamentally speaking, Santos dough mixer is not designed for home consumers, and as such there is no easy answer to your question! The manual that came with the mixer does not specify a minimum capacity at all, for the mixer is meant for professional use at hotels, restaurants, and etc. Hence, as a home baker, you would be compelled to somehow bend the machine to your purpose! And, it may not prove to be a simple task. The "minimum capacity" you are looking for depends upon various factors such as the level of hydration, the type of dough you like to make, and etc. As a general rule, the smaller the amount of dough you desire to make, the more difficult it will be for the fork to reach and engage it at the bottom of the mixing bowl. Even if you somehow manage to make a small volume of dough with the mixer, the dough may end up suffering from un-uniform kneading, excessive kneading, or some other ill. I can give you many hypotheticals under the low-dough-volume scenario, each attended with some kind of difficulty. Besides the issues surrounding the production of low volume dough, the main problem with the Santos is the fast rotation speed of its fork, which can be quite merciless on your Neapolitan dough if you cannot somehow intervene. If you are looking for an autopilot type of dough mixer to be used at home for production of small quantities of Neapolitan dough, Santos may not be the right choice. Good luck!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 09:27:19 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline redsun100

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 05:38:25 PM »
Welcome, Kriss. It depends on how much manual assistance you want to give - typically with something like a spoon to keep the bowl rotating even if there is little dough. It also depends on the consistency of the dough. I typically avoid batches smaller than 1kg, but I have done as small of 500g.


Thank you Bill for you quick answer. I used to own a Bosch mixer and i had to manually "feed" the mixer with a spatula if the batch was <1 kg. So i decided to go with i smaller model an bought the bosch universal plus. so far i am happy with it.

Offline redsun100

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 05:51:37 PM »
Dear Kriss, welcome! I am fully agreeable to the comments made by Mr. Bill/SFNM. And, I would like to add the following. . . . Fundamentally speaking, Santos dough mixer is not designed for home consumers, and as such there is no easy answer to your question! The manual that came with the mixer does not specify a minimum capacity at all, for the mixer is meant for professional use at hotels, restaurants, or etc. Hence, as a home baker, you would be compelled to somehow bend the machine to your purpose! And, it may not prove to be a simple task. The "minimum capacity" you are looking for depends upon various factors such as the level of hydration, the type of dough you like to make, and etc. As a general rule, the smaller the amount of dough you desire to make, the more difficult it will be for the fork to reach and engage it at the bottom of the mixing bowl. Even if you somehow manage to make a small volume of dough with the mixer, the dough may end up suffering from un-uniform kneading, excessive kneading, or some other ill. I can give you many hypotheticals under the low-dough-volume scenario, each attended with some kind of difficulty. Besides the issues surrounding the production of low volume dough, the main problem with the Santos is the fast rotation speed of its fork, which can be quite merciless on your dough if you can not somehow intervene. If you are looking for an autopilot type of dough mixer to be used at home for production of small quantities of dough, Santos would be probably a wrong choice. Good luck!

Dear Omid,

thank you for your answer, i understand. The mixer was designed to work with bigger dough batches. i already searched for a smaller fork mixer but was not able to find one. So i bought die bosch universal plus as stated above.
If i understood you correctly, the Santos is faster in the US than in Europe or Germany
Btw, you pizza looks amazing, i never tried to work with less than 1 gram of fresh yeast per batch. usually i make 6 balls each 240-250 grams. today i tried the recipe you posted with 0.1 gram of fresh yeast, i will keep you updated when i bake them tomorrow. I though maybe to combine this with a little bit of my sourdough culture but i will keep this for next time.
Thank you all for this great forum.
Have a good night.
Kriss

Offline Zeppi

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 06:40:41 PM »
Dear Omid!

Here is Mr. Fouquet's answer for the Santos,

Hello Mr. Ranelucci, I have just spent delicious minutes to the reading of this forum. Which are positive or negative in connection with our product, all the remarks are interesting. There are really experts in “paste”, and I acknowledge that exceeds my competences, even if one finds fundamental French laboratories which tested our product: incorporation of air, to turn etc slowly… I learned how not to take part directly in these forums, I know that it is generally appreciated very little because much from manufacturers benefit from it, with final, to make promotion… (even if I am accustomed to the English, I travelled much to the USA formerly…). All is not “scientifically precise”, in particular the variator of tension (at the end): the fact of lowering the tension on an engine of this type (asynchronous) will not decrease its speed… (just to decrease the couple (Torque))I will try to launch some prototypes of a “screw gearing without end” with a higher report of reduction. It will take me several months unfortunately. And then, initially it will be right a technical test of validation, and a validation of cost and feasibility “for me”, and can be of exclusiveness for you if it goes. Currently in 50Hz: engine 1500 rpm, 1470 rpm with the slip, 70 rpm at exit, is a report of reduction of 1/21Actuellement in 60Hz: engine 1760 rpm with slip, with 84 rpm at exit, one finds well the same report of reduction of 1/21Si one aims at a velocity emission slightly lowered compared to the 50Hz, of 65 rpm, it is necessary that I obtain a report of reduction of 1/27. Il' work on it, and I keep you informed. Contact our dealer in Montreal, they are very nice people, I was there in November  last year and I have an excellent memory of it. Sincere Salutations !

M. Nicolas FOUQUETSANTOS -
Works manager and Development -
GénéralTél Director: 04 72 37 35 29 - Fax: 04 78 26 58 21 www.santos.fr

Offline Zeppi

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 09:39:40 PM »
Translation is so so !
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 06:16:30 AM by Zeppi »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2011, 10:32:48 PM »
Here is Mr. Fouquet's answer for the Santos. . . .

Monsieur Zeppi, merci beaucoup! I thank you very much for Monsieur Fouquet's feedback. I am grateful to you! Although I do not understand everything he has written, it is valuable information. I contacted the Iranian manufacturer who built my previous fork mixer, and the representative told me that they no longer build low-capacity fork mixers anymore. Too bad!

Santos may need to consider designing a new fork mixer for home bakers; it may prove to be a profitable undertaking for them.  (Monsieur Fouquet, I hope you heard that! M. Fouquet, s'il vous plaît, de construire un mélangeur nouvelle fourche Santos pour les boulangers à domicile--un mixeur avec la vitesse de rotation de 45 rotations par minute. S'il vous plaît!)

In about an hour, I am going to talk to an electrical engineer via telephone about slowing down the Santos armature. I let you know if I learn anything new. Good night!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 11:02:19 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2011, 01:13:07 AM »
Here is Mr. Fouquet's answer for the Santos,

In about an hour, I am going to talk to an electrical engineer via telephone about slowing down the Santos armature. I let you know if I learn anything new.

Dear Zeppi, I just talked to the engineer re decreasing the fork speed of the Santos mixer. After examining the electronic schematic of the mixer, he was surprised as to how simple the design is. "The electronics as revealed in the schematic is nothing complicated at all", he remarked. He concluded, like the electrician from yesterday, that the easiest way to electronically reduce the RPM is to use a transformer (preferably equipped with an "isolation") to minimally reduce the voltage. Likewise, he warned me not to go any lower than 90 volts. Given that Santos mixer No. 18 has the following specifications:

Voltage: 100-120 V
Frequency: 50/60 Hz
Wattage: 650 W
Amper: 650 W ÷ 120 V = 5.42 Amps
Fork Speed: 84 RPM at 60 Hz

He tentatively approved of the following transformer:

Variac Transformer
Input: 120 volt AC
Output: 0~130 volt AC
VA: 1000VA
10 Amp. Max (surge)
Built-in Isolation to reduce interference
(Price: $169.00)

However, he told me not to try this on my own until he comes down to my place for a close inspection of the mixer and else in person. Also, he warned me that if the transformer and the mixer are used together in an area close to an industrial zone, the voltage in the house may drop which may pose a problem! Fortunately, my house is not near any industrial zone where they use a lot of electricity. I will keep you informed. Good night!

Update: I have communicated with several concerned individuals who claim to have tried the above procedure without success. Please beware!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 11:02:59 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 10:51:28 AM »
"Also, he warned me that if the transformer and the mixer are used together in an area close to an industrial zone, the voltage in the house can drop considerably which can pose a problem"

I know a little about electricity and would like an explanation of that statement. I find it hard to believe. I also don't think I would try the transformer route. This motor wants to run at a certain speed at 60HZ and will try to maintain the speed at a lower voltage. The result will be heat and stalling. My two cents, but I hope I am wrong so you get the desired results.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 11:56:26 AM »
"Also, he warned me that if the transformer and the mixer are used together in an area close to an industrial zone, the voltage in the house can drop considerably which can pose a problem"

I know a little about electricity and would like an explanation of that statement. I find it hard to believe. I also don't think I would try the transformer route. This motor wants to run at a certain speed at 60HZ and will try to maintain the speed at a lower voltage. The result will be heat and stalling. My two cents, but I hope I am wrong so you get the desired results.


Dear Apizza, it is a possibility that I may have misunderstood or misconstrued his statement. I will ask him for a full explanation next time I talk to him. He left for Germany this morning; he will be back in a couple of weeks. If I remember and understood him correctly, he told me that he works near factories where they do a lot of metal cutting, welding, and etc.; consequently, the voltage drops where he works. This might be due to the particular electronic infrastructure in that locality.

He did warn me several times about the "heat and stalling" when running the mixer at a lower voltage and, hence, speed. (I am assuming that the frequency will remain at 60 Hz while reducing the voltage.) Perhaps, that is one of the reasons that he wants to be present when I actually try this at home. Meanwhile, I am eager to know what solution you would foster.

By the way, please let me invite your attention to the following youtube video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9lU843ATI0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9lU843ATI0</a>
. This person apparently has wonderfully managed to reduce the RPM of her or his Santos. (I do not get enough of viewing the video!) I wished I could somehow invite her or his attention to this forum to disclose how she or he accomplished the feat. Good day!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 11:41:11 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 12:15:18 PM »

By the way, please let me invite your attention to the following youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9lU843ATI0. This person apparently has wonderfully managed to reduce the RPM of her or his Santos. (I do not get enough of viewing the video!) I wished I could somehow invite her or his attention to this forum to disclose how she or he accomplished the feat. Good day!


He's here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9665.msg83843.html#msg83843


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2011, 12:20:09 PM »
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 12:21:48 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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