Author Topic: Slowing down a Santos Mixer  (Read 20027 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2011, 10:24:02 PM »
Omid!

Mr.Fouquet is reading this post and he will try to do something about this ,he is a very nice man and passionate so hope for the best in the future!

Louis

Dear Louis, I am so indebted to you for all your help and sympathy . . . thank you!

Monsieur Fouquet, s'il vous plaît nous aider à réduire la vitesse du mélangeur Santos. Moi et beaucoup d'autres amateurs de pizza aiment votre produit, mais pour faire la pâte à pizza napolitaine nous avons besoin soit d'un nouveau mélangeur Santos avec vitesse plus lente ou nous avons besoin de savoir comment réduire la vitesse. S'il vous plaît nous aider. . . merci!
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2011, 12:30:10 PM »
If all you want is 50hz like in Europe why not buy a European power inverter that will produce 50hz.  Then feed it with a 12v rectifier.  Done.
-Jeff

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2011, 05:04:52 PM »
I was on lunch on my iPhone so that was the short version.  Here's the long.  A power inverter takes DC power(most commonly 12 volt) and converts it to AC power by generating it's own wave form.  Here in the US a power inverter would produce 60hz power to feed standard US products.  In Europe a power inverter would produce 50hz power to feed their standard products.  A rectifier converts AC power to DC power.  So if you take your 120V 60hz American power and feed it into a rectifier producing 12V DC power, you can then feed that 12V DC power into a European power inverter which will produce 50hz AC power.  Obviously you would need to convert the European plug on the inverter to an American plug, but thats no big deal.

To take this a step further, you could modify the inverter to produce whatever frequency, and hence whatever RPM you desire.  The frequency of the wave produced by a power inverter is generally controlled by one resistor.  Change the value of that resistor and you change the frequency of output.  This exact method is used in some variable frequency drives by using a variable resistor of some sort in the circuit, but since you want a fixed RPM a fixed resistor would work.  Here is a link that discusses doing exactly this to controll motor speed for a different purpose:

http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drivcorr.htm

If anyone tackles this read the warnings in the link, and remember power is dangerous.  A fraction of a Milli Amp can kill you in the right situation, so know what you are doing before you proceed.
-Jeff

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2011, 05:47:36 PM »
Just realized I forgot the transformer.  You first need a 12v transformer to produce 12v ac.  Then a rectifier for 12v dc.
-Jeff

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2011, 06:42:57 PM »
Just realized I forgot the transformer.  You first need a 12v transformer to produce 12v ac.  Then a rectifier for 12v dc.

Jeff, so if I understand this correctly:

120VAC/60Hz -> TRANSFORMER -> 12VAC/60HZ -> RECTIFIER -> 12VDC -> INVERTER -> 120VAC/50HZ -> EURO PLUG ADAPTER -> SANTOS

Is this right?
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2011, 07:09:52 PM »
And if it is right, do you know where one can find an inverter that outputs 120VAC/50Hz? Thanks much.
Sometimes I use big words that I don’t fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2011, 08:15:26 PM »
And if it is right, do you know where one can find an inverter that outputs 120VAC/50Hz? Thanks much.

I doubt such a thing exists off the shelf. They will all be 220V.

CL
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Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2011, 08:25:40 PM »
It does exists. See my post #413.
www.samlexamerica.com
Select model sa-2000k-112

50-60HZ switch selectable. Price unknown.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2011, 08:38:12 PM »
It does exists. See my post #413.
www.samlexamerica.com
Select model sa-2000k-112

50-60HZ switch selectable. Price unknown.

Price known. Yikes. $774!

http://www.amazon.com/Samlex-SA-2000K-112-2000-Watt-Inverter/dp/B003Y5AE5E/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Sometimes I use big words that I don’t fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2011, 08:45:34 PM »
Yeah that is true that the euro inverters will be 220v but the Santos runs at 220 drawing 600 watts.  Somebody needs to check with them and see if it can handle that as wired for the American market.  It draws 600 watts at 220 and a 900 watt inverter can be had on amazon for $85.
-Jeff

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2011, 09:04:42 PM »
Plate from my Santos:
Sometimes I use big words that I don’t fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2011, 09:26:58 PM »
The inverter has to be large enough to handle the start surge current. The 2000 watt inverter is 3 times the running wattage to handle the start. Also, is the $85 inverter on Amazon 50 HZ @ 120 volts ?  I'll bet it isn't a pure sine wave supply. I think the pure sine wave design is part of the high cost.

 Thanks for the cost Bill. I never thought to look on Amazon. What don't they carry?

Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2011, 09:37:06 PM »
Maybe we need a Santos thread under equipment. I'm really missing the pizza pictures.  :pizza:

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2011, 09:41:09 PM »
No, $85 for 220/50 modified.

I also looked at the Santos schematics, the 220 model is wired very differently.

Apparantly 2:1 transformers are pretty common for converting 220/50 into 110/50.  Most american devices will run at 110/50, so they can be used in europe with the converter.  That said this would become quite the daisey chain.  It would go:

120V / 60HZ AC -> Transformer -> 12V 60HZ AC -> Rectifier -> 12V DC -> Euro Power Inverter -> 220V / 50 HZ -> 2:1 transformer -> 110V/ 50HZ -> Santos

To me that is a lot of electrical equipment for a little gain.  Before doing all that I would buy a cheap american power inverter and have somebody with electrical knowledge modify it to run at the exact frequency you want to really dial this in.  If I had a Santos I would forge the path.  Just for the sake of it, this would go:

120V/60HZ -> Transformer -> 12V 60HZ AC -> Rectifier -> 12V DC -> Power Inverter(with resistor modification) -> 120V/whatever frequency you modified it to run -> Santos
-Jeff

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2011, 09:54:02 PM »
Maybe we need a Santos thread under equipment. I'm really missing the pizza pictures.  :pizza:

I split much of this out into a new thread.
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2011, 10:07:08 PM »
Along with being dangerous a variac WILL NOT WORK AT ALL with the type of motor in your santos and a transformer will not slow it down enough.

Omid! Mr. Fouquet is reading this post and he will try to do something about this ,he is a very nice man and passionnate
so hope for the best in the future!

A power inverter takes DC power(most commonly 12 volt) and converts it to AC power by generating it's own wave form.  Here in the US a power inverter would produce 60hz power to feed standard US products.  In Europe a power inverter would produce 50hz power to feed their standard products.  A rectifier converts AC power to DC power.  So if you take your 120V 60hz American power and feed it into a rectifier producing 12V DC power, you can then feed that 12V DC power into a European power inverter which will produce 50hz AC power.  Obviously you would need to convert the European plug on the inverter to an American plug, but thats no big deal.

To take this a step further, you could modify the inverter to produce whatever frequency, and hence whatever RPM you desire.  The frequency of the wave produced by a power inverter is generally controlled by one resistor.  Change the value of that resistor and you change the frequency of output.  This exact method is used in some variable frequency drives by using a variable resistor of some sort in the circuit, but since you want a fixed RPM a fixed resistor would work.  Here is a link that discusses doing exactly this to controll motor speed for a different purpose:

http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drivcorr.htm

If anyone tackles this read the warnings in the link, and remember power is dangerous.  A fraction of a Milli Amp can kill you in the right situation, so know what you are doing before you proceed.

Just realized I forgot the transformer.  You first need a 12v transformer to produce 12v ac.  Then a rectifier for 12v dc.

The inverter has to be large enough to handle the start surge current. The 2000 watt inverter is 3 times the running wattage to handle the start. Also, is the $85 inverter on Amazon 50 HZ @ 120 volts ?  I'll bet it isn't a pure sine wave supply. I think the pure sine wave design is part of the high cost.

Dear friends, I thank all of you for your contributions toward solving this issue. it seems to me that some of us involved in this Santos-fork-speed project hold  pieces of the puzzle! Moreover, per my research, it appears that Mr. Scott_r and some other respectful individuals are right about futility of Variac, which merely increase or decrease the voltage. With my very limited knowledge of electronics, today I spent about four hours of research, trying to have some rudimentary understanding in respect to the electronic principles underlying armature speed. The followings are the tentative results of my research.

1. According to the identification plate attached to the bottom of my Santos mixer, the following are the specifications of the mixer:

Santos Mixer Type: 18V1
100-120 Volts
50/60 Hz [Frequency]
650 W [Wattage]
4.5 A [Amperage???]
1800 tr/min [translation: tours par minute or "turns per minute" (which translates to the fork speed of about 84 RPM at 60 Hz)]

2. According to the manual that came with my Santos mixer (type 18V1), its electronic motor is run by alternating currents (AC). Further, its motor or armature is  a "single phase asynchronous [or 'induction'] motor".

3. It seems that the single-phase asynchronous motor of Santos generates a rotating magnetic field by using one of the following methods:

    (a) "Capacitor start motor", which is a type of "Split-phase induction motor" that is commonly used in home appliances such as washing machines, clothes dryers, fans, and etc. A "capacitor start motor" is equipped with a starting capacitor inserted in series with the startup winding, creating an LC circuit which is capable of a much greater phase shift and, hence, a much greater starting torque.
    (b) "Permanent-split capacitor motor" aka "capacitor start and run motor" which is commonly used in air blowers, ceiling fans, and other cases where a variable speed is desired.

4. Assuming that the Santos mixer uses the "capacitor start motor" (method "a") for generating a rotating magnetic field within its armature, the speed of the motor is primarily controlled by the "number of pole pairs" and the "frequency" of the supply voltage. In other words, it appears that the motor's RPM (rotations per minute) is primarily determined by two factors: (1) the number of poles in the stator winding, and (2) the frequency of the AC supply.

I do not believe changing the "number of poles in the stator winding" is a viable option, which consists in physically modifying it, if possible at all. However, I presume I can manage to change the "frequency" from 60 Hz to 50 Hz while maintaining a voltage of 100-120 volts. And, to accomplish that one needs a specialized converter, that can be quite expensive. One such device is "APT VariPLUS MODEL 105", which is probably an overkill. Luckily, I have found someone in San Diego who is willing to sell his VariPLUS to me for $300.00. (The retail price is about $995.00.) At this point, I do not know if this is a safe, sound, and effective solution. I will know more about the device tomorrow. You can check out the following link and youtube videos in regard to the VariPLUS MODEL 105 below.

http://www.aspowertechnologies.com/products/VariPLUS/VariPLUS105.aspx





After all said and done, I am afraid that running the mixer at 50 Hz may not reduce the RPM low enough. According to the Santos manual, the motor speed at 50 Hz is 1450 RPM, which generates a fork speed of 70 RPM. This speed is not slow enough! I need a fork speed lower than, or at least, 45 RPM. Many prominent Italian fork mixers run below 45 RPM.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 08:08:37 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2011, 12:04:00 PM »
The quick spec for this unit says 4.6 amps max. Bill/SFNM's Santos plate says 4.5 amps.  Much too close for me, and will it handle the start surge of the Santos motor?


Offline holorim

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2011, 05:59:50 PM »
Hello,
When I owned a 18 mixer (many years ago), I managed to change the speed quite easily.
Its single phase motor was fitted with a permanent capacitor (instead of a starting capacitor which is disconnected since the rotor began to run), and this allowed me to drive it via a frequency inverter.
But be carferul to not choose any model : theses devices are first of all made for 3 phase induction motors, but fews models are able to drive single phase motor which do not have transitional state when starting (i.e permanent capacitor)...

If the variable speed is not required, another solution would consist to replace de worm&wheel gears located inside the reducer. These gears are made of brass, and I suppose that any milling shop would be able to copy these gears but with a bigger reduction ratio.

Regards.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2011, 07:52:54 PM »
The quick spec for this unit says 4.6 amps max. Bill/SFNM's Santos plate says 4.5 amps.  Much too close for me, and will it handle the start surge of the Santos motor?

Dear Apizza, I do not know if the VariPlus Model 105 handles the start surge of the Santos motor. If the "start surge" is the same as "inrush current", the specifications below may hold an answer to your question. Good day!

« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:29:02 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2011, 08:25:31 PM »
Hello,
When I owned a 18 mixer (many years ago), I managed to change the speed quite easily.
Its single phase motor was fitted with a permanent capacitor (instead of a starting capacitor which is disconnected since the rotor began to run), and this allowed me to drive it via a frequency inverter.
But be carferul to not choose any model : theses devices are first of all made for 3 phase induction motors, but fews models are able to drive single phase motor which do not have transitional state when starting (i.e permanent capacitor)...

If the variable speed is not required, another solution would consist to replace de worm&wheel gears located inside the reducer. These gears are made of brass, and I suppose that any milling shop would be able to copy these gears but with a bigger reduction ratio.

Dear Holorim, I thank you very much for your comments! Please, allow me to ask you a question. When you say "18 mixer", do you mean "Santos Mixer Model 18"? I will keep the "permanent capacitor" and "worm&wheel gears" in mind when I soon see a local armature specialist.

I talked to one such specialist over the phone today. Not having seen the motor in person, he suspected that the santos' single-phase, asynchronous/induction, capacitor-start motor has "four poles". And, he stated by adding four more poles, if possible, he can reduce the speed from 1800 RPM to 900 RPM, at the cost of over $1000.00 and possibly $3,000 dollars! ???

Not knowing anything about the Santos company, I would be too presumptuous in thinking that: the high price of designing a new motor leads me to speculate that perhaps when Santos decided to market the mixer here in the US, they introduced the old motor in the new market, rather than designing a new motor to fit the circumstances of the new market. Good night and thank you again!

Respectfully,
Omid
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:58:25 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2011, 08:56:16 PM »
Another local electric motor specialist just called me and told me the same thing as above. Price? "Possibly over $2,500 dollars". At this point, I am quite agitated. It is time to listen to the melancholic voice of Maria Callas to calm me down!
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Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2011, 08:58:45 PM »
I'm going to guess the Variplus at 18 amps in rush will handle the start, but here is the real problem.

"After all said and done, I am afraid that running the mixer at 50 Hz may not reduce the RPM low enough. According to the Santos manual, the motor speed at 50 Hz is 1450 RPM, which generates a fork speed of 70 RPM. This speed is not slow enough! I need a fork speed lower than, or at least, 45 RPM. Many prominent Italian fork mixers run below 45 RPM"

So I wonder if you should put money into something that will not give the desired result. Perhaps this thread will produce a solution. I'm still thinking about it. An interesting problem. ???

Offline holorim

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2011, 09:04:16 PM »
Hi Omid,
Yes I was talking about de Santos Mixer model 18, as you illustrated it with the exploded views above.
Originally this brand was specialized in electric motors, but since it totally becomed a manufacturer in food machines, now the motors are contracted out (mainly the Société des Moteurs Electriques de Normandie).
I can confirm you the motor is 4 poles (synchronous speed = 1800 rpm at 60Hz). Rewind it with 6 poles would reduce the synchronous speed at 1200rpm (and 900 with 8 poles), but unfortunalety this operation will be uncertain on a single-phase motor which is always engineered for only one optimal winding.
In my opinion, its better to keep the actual motor, and to power it with a 3-phase inverter which can drive single-phase motor (i.e. Siemens Micromaster's range).

« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 09:06:55 PM by holorim »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2011, 09:07:30 PM »
I'm going to guess the Variplus at 18 amps in rush will handle the start, but here is the real problem.

"After all said and done, I am afraid that running the mixer at 50 Hz may not reduce the RPM low enough. According to the Santos manual, the motor speed at 50 Hz is 1450 RPM, which generates a fork speed of 70 RPM. This speed is not slow enough! I need a fork speed lower than, or at least, 45 RPM. Many prominent Italian fork mixers run below 45 RPM"

So I wonder if you should put money into something that will not give the desired result. Perhaps this thread will produce a solution. I'm still thinking about it. An interesting problem. ???

Dear Apizza, you are quite right! That is exactly the thought I have been entertaining all day. I truly hope that the Santos makers TAKE NOTICE of all these posts we have been posting here. Yet, I still wonder how he did this: . Are we miscalculating or not fully examining our assumptions?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 09:13:10 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2011, 09:19:49 PM »
Hi Omid,
Yes I was talking about de Santos Mixer model 18, as you illustrated it with the exploded views above.
Originally this brand was specialized in electric motors, but since it totally becomed a manufacturer in food machines, now the motors are contracted out (mainly the Société des Moteurs Electriques de Normandie).
I can confirm you the motor is 4 poles (synchronous speed = 1800 rpm at 60Hz). Rewind it with 6 poles would reduce the synchronous speed at 1200rpm (and 900 with 8 poles), but unfortunalety this operation will be uncertain on a single-phase motor which is always engineered for only one optimal winding.
In my opinion, its better to keep the actual motor, and to power it with a 3-phase inverter which can drive single-phase motor (i.e. Siemens Micromaster's range).

Dear Holorim, again, I thank you for heartening me!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 09:05:51 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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