Author Topic: Slowing down a Santos Mixer  (Read 21966 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2011, 11:35:49 PM »
I can confirm you the motor is 4 poles (synchronous speed = 1800 rpm at 60Hz).

Dear Holorim, according to the page 2 of the Santos manual (http://www.santos.fr/Doc_com/EN_English/SANTOS_18_leaflet_EN.pdf), the motor is a "single phase asynchronous motor". I do not know if this makes difference in regard to diminishing the fork speed. Bonne nuit!
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2011, 12:32:10 AM »
As a Southerner with a "degree" in Southern Engineering, I propose five suggestions.

1) Double the diameter of the bowl.  I know this does not help the smaller batches, but it decreases the kneading action by half.

2) Cut off 1/3 the length of the mixing arms. Hacksaw blades are very cheap and require very little skill to operate.

3) Bend the forks so they do not contact the bowl so aggressively.  

4) Offset the center of the bowl rotation, so that the forks do not contact the bowl so closely.

5) Decrease the diameter of the forks, so that they do not contact the bowl so aggressively.

See y'all later...
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:33:42 AM by Jet_deck »
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Offline holorim

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2011, 01:40:41 PM »
@Pizza Napoletana : the inverter doesn't control directly the motor RPM, but produces a current with an adjustable frenquency ; but on an induction motor the frenquency affects the RPM, which is the same goal indeed.
All inverters are able to yield from 0Hz to 60Hz (and many more but it doesn't recommended to overspeed a motor which isn't designed for) : then you may be able to adjust the motor at the speed you want, from 0 up to 1600 RPM with an accuracy of a couple of RPMs.


Offline scott r

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2011, 12:39:05 AM »
omid, the youtube pietrosantos was modified with a new motor and a variable frequency drive.  The new motor was attached to the side.  the motor and vfd were only a few hundred dollars, but you need access to a metal shop that can either lathe down the end of the new motor to fit in the santos drive shaft, or have them make a small adaptor to mate the new motor with the drive shaft in the santos.  I have the details on how to do this, and manufacturers for the vfd and motor used in the video, so feel free to email me if you are interested in going for this.     I think the metal work would only take a few hours at most, so the cost would likely be under 500 for the full modification and parts.   Hopefully santos will some day come out with a unit that does this on its own (without modification).  
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 12:47:23 AM by scott r »

Offline scpizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2011, 04:20:09 AM »
the youtube pietrosantos was modified with a new motor....The new motor was attached to the side.

Nope, that's a physically unmodified, stock Santos running on the factory motor.  There is no chicanery like a hidden motor bolted on to the side.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 05:39:31 AM by scpizza »

Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2011, 08:37:07 AM »
Nope, that's a physically unmodified, stock Santos running on the factory motor.  There is no chicanery like a hidden motor bolted on to the side.

If so do you know how the speed was reduced?  I can only guess it was a variable frequency drive, or a new gearbox was manufactured.

Offline Zeppi

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2011, 09:11:00 AM »
I truly hope that the Santos makers TAKE NOTICE of all these posts we have been posting here.

Omid , Mr Fouquet said that it will take a few months for him
to rethink and find a solution for a slower speed so hold on!


Louis

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2011, 01:51:29 PM »
Nope, that's a physically unmodified, stock Santos running on the factory motor.  There is no chicanery like a hidden motor bolted on to the side.

So what is the big deal with just telling him how you did it? Or does it cost money for you to tell how you did it?
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Offline scpizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2011, 03:28:54 PM »
So what is the big deal with just telling him how you did it? Or does it cost money for you to tell how you did it?
Yes, it could cost me everything I own.  Under the U.S. legal system people will go off and hurt themselves then blame and sue someone else who was just trying to help.  No good deed goes unpunished.

I only spoke up to help you good people from going down the rat hole of trying to bolt on an exterior motor (been there, tried that).  Can't say that I appreciate the hostile comment in return.  No good deed goes unpunished, indeed.


Offline scott r

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2011, 05:15:13 PM »
Nope, that's a physically unmodified, stock Santos running on the factory motor.  There is no chicanery like a hidden motor bolted on to the side.

aah, well it looks like you changed your plans after we talked.    Sounds like you must have bypassed the capacitor for everything but the startup allowing the use of the vfd?     I wish you had told me that works, or I wouldn't have sold my santos!  This whole time I thought the curtain was there covering up the new motor and vfd.   oh well, im glad you got it going, it must be amazing having that thing going at the right speed!      
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 05:32:56 PM by scott r »

Offline scpizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2011, 05:26:25 PM »
I wish you had told me, or I wouldn't have sold my santos!
Pshaw, you were too head over heels in love with your Bosch to have eyes for any other.   ;)

Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2011, 07:57:19 PM »
aah, well it looks like you changed your plans after we talked.    Sounds like you must have bypassed the capacitor for everything but the startup allowing the use of the vfd?     I wish you had told me that works, or I wouldn't have sold my santos!  This whole time I thought the curtain was there covering up the new motor and vfd.   oh well, im glad you got it going, it must be amazing having that thing going at the right speed!      

So a possible fix is to defeat the centrifical switch that disconnects the start capacitor (after start) and run on a VFD? Makes sense to me.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2011, 08:37:53 PM »
I propose five suggestions.

The inverter doesn't control directly the motor RPM, but produces a current with an adjustable frenquency; but on an induction motor the frenquency affects the RPM, which is the same goal indeed. All inverters are able to yield from 0Hz to 60Hz (and many more but it doesn't recommended to overspeed a motor which isn't designed for) : then you may be able to adjust the motor at the speed you want, from 0 up to 1600 RPM with an accuracy of a couple of RPMs.

I can only guess it was a variable frequency drive. . . .

Omid , Mr Fouquet said that it will take a few months for him to rethink and find a solution for a slower speed so hold on!

Under the U.S. legal system people will go off and hurt themselves then blame and sue someone else who was just trying to help

Sounds like you must have bypassed the capacitor for everything but the startup allowing the use of the vfd?

So a possible fix is to defeat the centrifical switch that disconnects the start capacitor (after start) and run on a VFD? Makes sense to me.

Dear friends, I sincerely thank you all for your ongoing contributions toward solving the fork-speed problem. I personally respect Mr. Scpizza's legitimate liability concerns. And, as is implicit in his statement, there are imminent risks or dangers involved in electronic manipulation of the mixer, and that no one should irresponsibly and without competent consultation make such attempts.

It appears that a "variable frequency drive" (VFD) may hold a key to the speed issue. I will give it my full considerations and will consult an expert in this regard. The following link offers some video-tutorials (and WARNINGS) in regard to selecting and using a VFD:

http://www.automationdirect.com/static/press/video_tutorials_ac_drives.html

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives

I wish you all a great weekend!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 08:40:47 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2011, 07:15:11 PM »
That's a physically unmodified, stock Santos running on the factory motor.

Thus far, having been in this forum for the past couple of months, two happenings have really enchanted and transfixed me: (1) Mr. Craig's spirited audacity to house an Acunto oven inside his garage and (2) Mr. Scpizza's tantalizing experiment with his Santos fork mixer. As to the latter, while it is not a miracle, it is miraculous nonetheless! View for yourself and take a walk to the dark side of the moon:

« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 08:01:40 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2011, 10:36:07 PM »
.
.
.
.
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.
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While I am waiting for a consulting firm (specializing in electric motors) to call me back in regard to using the right "Variable Frequency Drive" (VFD) to be used with the Santos Dough Mixer, I thought I recap some of the essential points that have been made so far (after I restate the specifications for the Santos Dough Mixer below):

Santos Dough Mixer Specifications:
Model 18
Motor Type: Single-phase asynchronous/induction motor (capacitor start motor)
Voltage: 100-120 V
Frequency: 50/60 Hz
Wattage: 650 W
Amperage: 4.5 A
Motor Speed: 1800 RPM at 60 Hz

The Problem:
How to decrease the RPM (rotation per minute) of the Santos motor.

Essential Points:
Mr. Holorim: "When I owned a [Santos] 18 mixer (many years ago), I managed to change the speed quite easily. Its single phase motor was fitted with a permanent capacitor (instead of a starting capacitor which is disconnected since the rotor began to run), and this allowed me to drive it via a frequency inverter. But be careful to not choose any [frequency inverter] model: theses devices are first of all made for 3 phase induction motors, but few models are able to drive single phase motor which do not have transitional state when starting (i.e permanent capacitor)..."

Mr. Holorim: "In my opinion, its better to keep the actual motor, and to power it with a 3-phase inverter which can drive single-phase motor (i.e. Siemens Micromaster's range)."

Mr. Holorim: "The inverter doesn't control directly the motor RPM, but produces a current with an adjustable frequency; but on an induction motor the frequency affects the RPM, which is the same goal indeed. All inverters are able to yield from 0Hz to 60Hz (and many more but it doesn't recommended to overspeed a motor which isn't designed for): then you may be able to adjust the motor at the speed you want, from 0 up to 1600 RPM with an accuracy of a couple of RPMs."

Mr. Scott r: "Sounds like you [Scpizza] must have bypassed the capacitor for everything but the startup allowing the use of the vfd?"

Mr. Apizza: "So a possible fix is to defeat the centrifical switch that disconnects the start capacitor (after start) and run on a VFD? Makes sense to me."

Two days ago, after I talked about this issue to another company that specializes in VFDs, they emailed me as follows: "We don't sell any drives that can be used on single-phase motors. You would need to search Google for a company that makes drives that will work with a capacitor start motor."

Is there such a thing as a VFD that works with a "capacitor start motor"? Per Mr. Holorim, above, "I managed to change the speed quite easily. Its [Santos'] single phase motor was fitted with a permanent capacitor (instead of a starting capacitor which is disconnected since the rotor began to run), and this allowed me to drive it via a frequency inverter. But be careful to not choose any [frequency inverter] model: theses devices are first of all made for 3 phase induction motors, but few models are able to drive single phase motor which do not have transitional state when starting (i.e permanent capacitor)..." Later, Mr. Holorim added, "In my opinion, its better to keep the actual motor, and to power it with a 3-phase inverter which can drive single-phase motor (i.e. Siemens Micromaster's range)."

If I understand this whole thing properly, a tentative solution to the problem involves 2 steps:
1) Getting the right VFD, and
2) Either changing the original capacitor to a "permanent capacitor", or somehow managing to have the VFD bypass the original capacitor (without replacing it) after the startup.

WARNING: NO ONE SHOULD TRY ANY OF THE ABOVE RISKY PROCEDURES (WHICH MAY BE LIFE THREATENING) WITHOUT EXPERT CONSULTATION AND PROFESSIONAL SUPERVISION.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 10:53:32 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2011, 12:09:22 AM »
replacing the motor armature with a shaft and bearing block on the rear of the motor housing, and installing a treadmill motor (example: 0-8000rpm. ~2hp) with the controller to adjust the rpm may be the cheapest and safest solution.  a simple gear reduction via chain or belt can be made to give you a max rpm of say 2000rpm, where you can add more speed to the shaft over stock, but allow a slow 15-20 rpm speed for adding ingredients liable to blow up all over the place at full speed.
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2011, 09:41:02 AM »
replacing the motor armature with a shaft and bearing block on the rear of the motor housing, and installing a treadmill motor (example: 0-8000rpm. ~2hp) with the controller to adjust the rpm may be the cheapest and safest solution.  a simple gear reduction via chain or belt can be made to give you a max rpm of say 2000rpm, where you can add more speed to the shaft over stock, but allow a slow 15-20 rpm speed for adding ingredients liable to blow up all over the place at full speed.

Dear c0mpl3x, I appreciate your proposal. Good day!
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Offline denrayr

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2011, 10:09:42 PM »
OK i thnk you guys are way over complicating things. The start circuit uses a current sensing relay, so once the motor has started, the capacitor is out of the circuit. You could use a simple motor speed control and turn the mixer on with the speed control set to high. Once the motor is running you could turn it down to the desired speed.

There is a chance that the motor could start at lower speeds, but some testing would be required. The only side effect would be that the motor would hum and fail to start. As long as you quickly turn up the speed control or disconnect power, no damage would occur to the motor.

Here is an example of a simple speed control http://www.qcsupply.com/solid-state-manual-speed-control.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=productfeeds you would want to mount the speed control in a single gang electrical box. Coming out the box would be a cord with a male end and a cord with a female end. The mixer would plug into the female end and the male end goes in the outlet.

Here is a quick sketch of how it would be wired

Offline apizza

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2011, 08:48:54 AM »
According to this site that control is not for capacitor start motors.
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/kbwc.htm

I think that since the Santos uses an induction motor with a start capacitor, that control is not going to do it. I think most of us feel the Santos motor speed is controlled by line frequency and a reduction in voltage would cause stalling and heat.

Offline Zeppi

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2011, 01:40:50 PM »
Dear Omid!....Hope all is well !

Mr Fouquet emailed me saying that they are at work in
trying to reduce the speed , they found a way with a new gear box
to reduce it 20% and are figuring out if they could go further !

I think that it's really special of having someone dream about a better
product and having someone like Mr Fouquet getting involved
in trying to find some solutions,
we dont see this often !

Louis

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2011, 04:42:18 PM »
Dear Omid!....Hope all is well !

Mr Fouquet emailed me saying that they are at work in trying to reduce the speed , they found a way with a new gear box to reduce it 20% and are figuring out if they could go further!

I think that it's really special of having someone dream about a better product and having someone like Mr Fouquet getting involved
in trying to find some solutions, we dont see this often !

Louis

Dear Louis, this is indeed good news, and I thank you for all your time and efforts. I am also grateful to Mr. Fouquet for his understanding and consideration. (Dans le cas où vous lisez ce monsieur Fouquet, JE VOUS REMERCIE pour le travail sur le mélangeur Santos pour le ralentir. VOUS ÊTES UNE PERSONNE MERVEILLEUSE.)

If I am not mistaken, reducing the fork RPM (which is currently 84 at 60Hz and 110 V) by 20% yields a fork speed of about 67.2 RPM. In my humble opinion, the Santos engineers need to reduce the fork speed, if mechanically possible at all, way lower than 67.2 RPM! The Pietroberto mixer La Vittoria 35 (with a dough capacity of 35 Kg) has a fork speed of 26 RPM for its 1-speed model, and fork speeds of 20.5 RPM and 31 RPM for its 2-speed model. Furthermore, Pietroberto mixer La Vittoria 17 (with a dough capacity of 17 Kg) has a fork speed of 23 RPM for its 1-speed model, and fork speeds of 20.5 RPM and 31 RPM for its 2-speed model).

I am still grateful for what Santos engineers have done so far. I highly appreciate their efforts. Even if they somehow manage to reduce the speed to no less than 42 RPM, that would still be a great achievement! I think once they accomplish this, many people will probably consider purchasing Santos dough mixers. I personally know 7 people who are optimistically waiting for the results of this development.

Again, I opulently thank both of you, monsieur Louis and Fouquet. Have a wonderful weekend!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 05:26:07 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2011, 05:00:26 PM »
Omid,
I am using the Pietroberto 2 speed model that you speak of. If you like I can take a video for you to use as a reference point.

Matt

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2011, 05:06:47 PM »
Omid,
I am using the Pietroberto 2 speed model that you speak of. If you like I can take a video for you to use as a reference point.
Matt

Dear Matthew, that would be wonderful if it is no trouble! Thank you.
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2011, 07:15:09 AM »

No trouble at all my friend!  I am conducting pizzaiolo interviews this morning at the restaurant & will shoot a video for you.  If you're interested in moving to Toronto I'll hire you anytime ;)

Matt

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Slowing down a Santos Mixer
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2011, 02:35:19 PM »
No trouble at all my friend!  I am conducting pizzaiolo interviews this morning at the restaurant & will shoot a video for you.  If you're interested in moving to Toronto I'll hire you anytime ;)

Matt

Dear Matthew, I thank you for your confidence in me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend!
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