Pretty happy now - Looking for advice on longer cold-rise and proofing container

[Jackie Tran]

When I buy my flour off the shelf it isn't always the exact same every time.  I'm getting some variability.  Sometimes it's very course and a little hard and sometimes it's beautiful and fluffy with a sifted texture.  I put whatever amount of water in is required to deliver the right consistency between my fingers.  This is usually, more specifically, around 58% on the dot.  55% is on the low end, but sometimes that's all I need!  So when you say 55% is maybe too low, well it depends on what type of day it is that day and what condition the bag of flour I have is in.

Never got much into food photography, but the next time I make a pizza (which should be this week) I will remember to take photos as you have requested.

Hydration is also dependent upon age of the flour and your surrounding climate.  I agree with your method of making dough my feel.  I'll trust my hands over the numbers any day.   I live in a very arid climate with low levels of humidity and consequently my flour is drier and requires a higher hydration.  A 64-65% hydration might be comparable to a 60% hydration at sea level near the ocean.  Having said that, my best results have come from a 69-70% same day dough.  I have also gotten excellent texture from an extended dough (upto 30 hours of cool fermentation ~65f) but it was with commercial yeast.  It likely can be done with a starter but it requires a low acid producing starter and using it in a fairly young state I believe.  Aside from that, it also requires some skill to pull it off.  I'm not there yet, but there are members here that can do it.  I agree with you about the acids attacking the gluten structure.  

Would love to see your pictures as you seem to know your stuff.  Don't forget the crumb shots as well.  Welcome aboard!

[brandonb]

For the fun of it, you might want to try an all room temp poolish, which ferments a portion of the flour before mixing the final dough. Do a search and you will find some percentages to work with.

But a classic NP is all room temp and same day. To get more flavor, you can use very small amounts of yeast, say .04% ADY, and go 18 - 24 hours for the fermentation. But you can still get good flavor with 8 hour doughs. Do a search for Chau's workflows as he is a master with commercial yeast and same day doughs.

John

I've had a difficult time finding Chau's workflows for same day dough's and commercial yeast. Anyone have any ideas on how I could modify my recipe and process to do a same day dough?

Thanks!

[Jackie Tran]

Brandon, I'll take a look at your recipe and workflow a bit later and make some suggestions.  Are you wanting to try an 8, 12, or 18 hr dough?  If you give me a time frame I can suggest a yeast amount.  You will have to watch the dough.

What do you like or dislike about your current pizza? Sorry I havent read through the entire thread yet if it has been discussed already.

Update-ok just breezed through your thread.  What type of flour are you working with?  what kind of texture did you get, was it soft or tough?  Too chewy or not enough?

[brandonb]

I'm not looking for a specific same day dough time, but just want the most authentic neapolitan dough possible. I'm currently doing an overnight dough in the fridge, but was told in this thread that I should target a warm rise same day dough. It would also be nice to have one in my repertoire when we're craving pizza that day.

I've actually been very happy with my dough using my current method. It could probably use a bit more air/bubbles in the crumb. I'd also like to see if I can get a bit more of a complex dough flavor to determine if I prefer that. But it's difficult to know what else I want as I haven't had a lot of authentic neapolitan pizza recently.

Thanks!

[Jackie Tran]

Well if you are seeking to make the most "authentic" NP pizza, I'm probably the least qualified person to talk to.  Omid and Matthew come to mind so hopefully if they read this, they will chime in or you can PM them.  But , I agree with the others.  For a more authentic version, use a 00 flour, cake yeast, and stick with a 10-18 hr room temp workflow.

If you are seeking more flavor in the dough, look to starters.  You will not get complex flavors from commercial yeast or cake yeast.  I like to use commercial and CY because they are predictable, give more consistent results, and I like the textures that I get.  For me, texture is more important than flavor.  If I cant get both, then Id rather have the correct texture.

I can give you a sample 8-12hr dough recipe but it probably won't be authentic or traditional.  Do you have a starter on hand?

[brandonb]

Yeah, I should reword that. I'm not looking for the most "authentic" but really the best neapolitan-style pie I can make in my home oven. I am similar to you, texture is much more important than dough flavor.

I do not have a starter on hand but would be willing to try one if I had time. Would also be keen to see a version without a starter (currently using ADY) as I prefer the simplicity and flexibility of commercial yeasts.

Thanks for your help here!

[Jackie Tran]

Yeah, I should reword that. I'm not looking for the most "authentic" but really the best neapolitan-style pie I can make in my home oven. I am similar to you, texture is much more important than dough flavor.

I do not have a starter on hand but would be willing to try one if I had time. Would also be keen to see a version without a starter (currently using ADY) as I prefer the simplicity and flexibility of commercial yeasts.

Thanks for your help here!

okay very good, what kind of flour do you have access to?  Do you have some type of 00 flour or you can also use AP flour.  I know it's not the same, but with a good technique, you can get close.

Do you have a mixer, bread machine, or a food processor?  If not you can do it by hand as well.  Being able to cook on the cleaning cycle is a big plus.  Does the broiler run the entire time while the oven is on cleaning cycle or does it cycle on and off?  I haven't played around with the cleaning cycle myself, but it shouldn't be a big deal. 

Let's keep it simple.  Let's start off with a 12 hour same day dough using IDY.  Sound good? 

[brandonb]

I use Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and a KitchenAid mixer. The broiler runs the entire time during my cleaning cycle. If it switches to the bottom burner, I just turn off cleaning cycle and turn back on and the broiler elements kicks back on.

How about an 8 or 10 hour dough? I'm thinking if we're going to start cooking at 7pm I'd rather not have to get up at 7am on the weekend to make this. So an 8 or 10 hour would be ideal. I currently have ADY, so if it doesn't make a material difference, I'd prefer to use that. (If it doesn't impact the dough, I can convert your IDY levels using the conversion factor on this forum so no need for you to convert)

Thanks!

[Jackie Tran]

Great, 8-10 hours is really no different from 12 hours.  You can adjust your yeast levels up and down according to what you want.  Sometimes, if I'm up early, then I'll cut the yeast back to bake by 7pm.  Or if I end up making dough later in the day, then I up the yeast.  ADY and IDY will give virtually the same results.   I haven't used ADY in a while, so I will give you amounts based on my old notes, but you will have to adjust according to the dough.  If it is growing a bit too fast, then stick it in the fridge, if it's growing to slow then place it in a warm spot like inside the oven with the light on or under a lamp. 

I'd like you to start off with a 64% hydration dough.  It seems a bit high but same day doughs can tolerate more water. 

Before you go making a big batch, make a tester batch of about 2 dough balls to see how it works out.  YOu can make adjustments as you see fit.  Then use your modified recipe on bake day.

Flour 100% caputo 00 pizzeria flour
water 64% room temp bottled water
ADY 0.2%
Salt 2.5% or less. 

o.2% ADY should get you into the ball park of 8-10 hours at a room temp ~75F.  If your kitchen is warmer, it will be ready in 6 hours so decrease the amount next time.  If kitchen is cooler, it might take longer.  So you will just have to experiment with the yeast amounts.  Plus I'm at a higher altitude, so these numbers may not be exactly the same for you. 

-Measure water into KA bowl, add ADY and salt and mix on spd 1 for a few minutes to dissolve.
-measure out flour.  Dump 50-60% of flour in bowl and mix on spd 1 to incorporate.  AFter 20 seconds or so, add half of the remaining, let mix for another 10-20 seconds, and dump in the rest of the flour.
-Mix for about 2 minutes so that everything is incorporated.  No lumps or dry spots here.  Dough can be rough and doesn't have to be smooth.
-cover and let rest for 45m - 1 hour.  Mix on spd 1 for 4-5 min or until the dough starts to pull from the sides then stop.  Don't mix it too much beyond this point.
-Pull the dough out and ball it up gently and into a resting container, covered. *use a see through container*
-Rest 10 min.  The dough should soften up quit a bit or become more slack.  Do 3-4 folds to ball it up again, weigh it and make a note somewhere, and return to container.  Push the ball down to flatten it out and use some masking tape to mark the top of the dough.  You can use a rubber band as well for this.  The dough at this point should be fairly white, smooth, and supple.
-Allow the dough to bulk rise to 50-75%.  A doubling is 100%.  So half to almost double.
-Take the dough out, and divide it into equal portions and ball it up.  There are lots of different methods to balling.  If you want an open crumb, don't degass the dough when balling and ball gently.  If you want a tighter crumb then ball tightly.  unto you, but I usually go with a gentle to moderately firm approach.  This is because over balling is one of the factors that leads to toughness.
-Allow the dough to proof up to double or more then bake.  You can eyeball this part.

-If you proof them in round containers, then use a bit of paper towel to brush the inside of the bowl with oil.  As mentioned before, dusk the top, turn the bowl over and let the dough fall out.  DO NOT wrestle the dough out!  Try not to degas the dough while opening the skin. 
-cover the entered dough ball with bench flour.  You can shake off the excess as you open the dough.   At this point, if there is sufficient strength in the dough, it will take on a small amount of bench flour regardless of how much you put on it.  If a dough is requiring a lot of bench flour, that means the gluten has not been developed enough for the amount of water used. 

-Bake at 800 for about 1.5m +.  Enjoy and please post pics. 

Good luck,
Chau

[dellavecchia]

Thanks Chau! I am trying this one out, if you don't mind. I never realized that balling has an effect on toughness and crumb structure.

John

[brandonb]

This is awesome! Thanks Chau! Lots of good tips that I don't do. (Currently wrestle out dough after proofing, don't dust it with bench flour, balling aggressiveness impacts texture)

I'm going to do a small batch of my normal overnight routine and a small batch of yours to compare on Saturday. I'll post results and pics this weekend.

Any tips on spreading out the dough and forming the pie? I usually just push the dough outwards from the middle and pinch down to form the crust. Once it's large enough, I begin pushing and rotating the outer part with my hands until it gets to about 10-12".

[Jackie Tran]

I semi flatten the dough with my palms preserving the rim, then pick it up and open by spreading my fingers along the edge.  I rotate and repeat with some knuckle stretching as well.  Most of the stretching is done in the air and gently to preserve the internal structure.  You can also use the neapolitan slap technique, but it requires a lot of practice.

[David Deas]

Hydration is also dependent upon age of the flour and your surrounding climate.  I agree with your method of making dough my feel.  I'll trust my hands over the numbers any day.   I live in a very arid climate with low levels of humidity and consequently my flour is drier and requires a higher hydration.  A 64-65% hydration might be comparable to a 60% hydration at sea level near the ocean.  Having said that, my best results have come from a 69-70% same day dough.  I have also gotten excellent texture from an extended dough (upto 30 hours of cool fermentation ~65f) but it was with commercial yeast.  It likely can be done with a starter but it requires a low acid producing starter and using it in a fairly young state I believe.  Aside from that, it also requires some skill to pull it off.  I'm not there yet, but there are members here that can do it.  I agree with you about the acids attacking the gluten structure.

Yes.  That is correct.  

If you were to take a sourdough leavened bread and an ADY leavened bread side by side, the ADY leavened bread will have a superior texture given that all other processes are kept equal.  Usually the sourdough will have a more complex flavor because the entire culture is more complex, but I agree with you about texture being the *most* important thing.  These facts underline the reasons why I use a very fast workflow when using a sourdough.  Typically about 8 to 9 hours, all room temperature.  Any more than that and the gluten structure starts to become impacted.

Have you ever tried barm?

Would love to see your pictures as you seem to know your stuff.  Don't forget the crumb shots as well.  Welcome aboard!

Thanks.

I've seen your Neapolitan margheritas recently over in the NY forum.  They are some of the best looking classic margheritas I've seen anywhere on this forum.  That was a really nice job.

Mine look closer to Mangieri's, with the heavy contrasted leoparding of a Caporuscio pie.  The last time I made a pizza I did take photos as promised, but I did not surgically dissect the pie since I was serving.

[David Deas]

Thanks for your workflow David. I regularly use Caputo at between 60-67% hydration, as do most of here on the NP board. I don't know the protein count of your flour, but you could use a mixer to develop the gluten more so you could get your hydration up in an 8 hour workflow. The slack quality you are experiencing at higher hydrations may be that your flour is more of a pasta 00 with low protein - combined with a short mix by hand (and not developing the dough enough). Otherwise, try using less starter and extending your fermentation out to 18-24 hours, and doing 4-6 stretch and folds bulked after your initial mix. Try it at 60% and you may be surprised at the result. I am also assuming you are cooking at NP temps - 800 and up.

John

Generally speaking, I don't use mixers.  Call me old school, but I think Neapolitan pizza dough should probably be mixed by hand.  Its OK if somebody uses a machine but there are still those of us around who prefer to get their hands a little dirty.  



Slack quality?  I don't think so.  I said that the more water you put in your dough the slacker the dough will continue to become.  Not that my efforts were "slack" at higher hydration in any absolute sense.  Merely, that there is always a rheological difference between a lower hydration dough and a higher hydration dough.

I can work just about any hydration.  I don't struggle with high hydration doughs.  What I struggle with is seeing the point of operating with unnecessarily high amounts of water in the dough.  The great thing about Caputo is that it takes less water to hydrate than your typical American flour (containing a comparable amount of protein) and I like to take full advantage of that.  For obvious reasons, a bake time of 50 seconds, give or take, is harder for me to achieve with a dough that has a high hydration of around 70% or thereabouts.

Bill has given his perfectly legitimate reasons for using north of 70%, and that's excellent.  Truth be told, I'd never come across the insight of extending the "done" window by increasing the hydration of the dough.  Nice technique, IMO.  I'll have to explore that.  For me, however, its always been that working a hot oven at lower hydration is just plain challenging.  And that's just the way it is.

[dellavecchia]

Generally speaking, I don't use mixers.  Call me old school, but I think Neapolitan pizza dough should probably be mixed by hand...

What I struggle with is seeing the point of operating with unnecessarily high amounts of water in the dough...

I enjoyed reading your insight. I, too, do most of my development by hand - it takes longer but is more rewarding.

One of the main reasons of raising the hydration on neapolitan bakes is to increase tenderness in the final product crumb and exterior. For me, it is very difficult to get a creamy crumb and soft exterior with anything less than 60% using Caputo. I find that for 50 second bakes with Caputo, the sweet spot is 60-62%. If I am using another flour, such as the CM 00 "Normal", the protein quality demands 62-64% for the product I seek. But that is what is great about this forum - everyone has their workflows and sharing expands our collective knowledge. I am looking forward to seeing your pies and more of your posts.

John

[brandonb]

So I did my test of the two methods. The first was my "normal" dough I posted at the beginning of the thread but I eliminated the 2 hours warm rise before balling and cold rising. The other dough was Chau's recommended 8-12 hour dough except I thought my kitchen would be a bit colder so I did a 0.25% ADY instead of 0.2% (I was wrong).  My normal dough came out really good. It wasn't overproofed so eliminating the warm rise was probably the right move. The additional ADY and unexpected outdoor temps of 75" caused the inside of the house to get much warmer than normal so the dough was busting out of the tupperware by the time I got home. Both still stretched really well and felt good when making them.

Unfortunately, this test didn't work out that well as my Italian market was out of Caputo flour so I bought some other brand of "00" flour that looked somewhat generic and was a bit cheaper. All of the pizza from both dough's came out just flat. They looked good pre-oven, but as you can see from below, little bubble in the crumb and didn't have that flaky texture. Since my dough last week was almost identical to one of these but with different flour, I know that must be it.

Will try again next weekend with some Antimo Caputo flour.

Pics - Traditional margherita, pesto chicken (with sundried tomatoes and goat cheese), and pumpkin bacon (with spinach, goat, and blue cheese)

[Jackie Tran]

Brandon, the last picture you posted, the crumb looks pretty decent. If only one pie of the bunch turns out and you get to eat it, then all is not lost. 

Chau

[brandonb]

Brandon, the last picture you posted, the crumb looks pretty decent. If only one pie of the bunch turns out and you get to eat it, then all is not lost. 

Chau

It was okay, but I prefer a lighter, more bubbly crust such as in the first pictures I posted in this thread. 

[Jackie Tran]

Yes.  That is correct.  

If you were to take a sourdough leavened bread and an ADY leavened bread side by side, the ADY leavened bread will have a superior texture given that all other processes are kept equal.  Usually the sourdough will have a more complex flavor because the entire culture is more complex, but I agree with you about texture being the *most* important thing.  These facts underline the reasons why I use a very fast workflow when using a sourdough.  Typically about 8 to 9 hours, all room temperature.  Any more than that and the gluten structure starts to become impacted.

Have you ever tried barm?

Thanks.

I've seen your Neapolitan margheritas recently over in the NY forum.  They are some of the best looking classic margheritas I've seen anywhere on this forum.  That was a really nice job.

Mine look closer to Mangieri's, with the heavy contrasted leoparding of a Caporuscio pie.  The last time I made a pizza I did take photos as promised, but I did not surgically dissect the pie since I was serving.

David, I agree with John.  You would be amazed at what you can learn from the members here on this forum.  Quite a knowledgeable crowd.   FWIW, I have also gotten good results with a naturally leavened dough cold/cool fermented overnight and then proofed at room temps before baking.  But I tend to lean towards more mild starters and using them young as well.  Many of the top pizza makers here also do extended cool fermentation with starters and seemingly get good results.  But I understand that everyone's taste and preferences vary. 

I have not tried barm.  Can you tell me more about it and your thoughts on using it?  Have you gotten good results with it?

Thanks for the nice words.  NP is not my specialty, but I am rather just beginning to learn more about the style.  I hope to keep improving on it though, so I I'll keep working on it.

Chau