Author Topic: KA Bread Flour?  (Read 3000 times)

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Offline dankfoot

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KA Bread Flour?
« on: June 21, 2005, 02:56:23 PM »
I know that most people here use KASL but right now im out of that. I bought a bag of KA Bread Flour but I thought the Protien was higher than most all purpose flours? IS it not? Dont a lot of people here use the bread flour too?


Offline Randy

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2005, 03:05:57 PM »
The higher the protein the better the dough works with a rise in the cooler.  If your recipe does not call for a cold fermantation then bread flour should work just fine.  I use the bread flour on cracker thin crust and Chicago.

Randy

Offline dankfoot

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2005, 03:18:26 PM »
Thanks Randy,

I was thinking that I read the Bread Flour had like a 10% protien. But I guess it is only 4?

SO should I not use this flour if im going to do a 24 hour cold rise?

Thanks,
Chris

Online scott r

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2005, 03:23:57 PM »
Jeff Varasano prefers the KA bread.  He has tried KASL and Caputo, and does refrigerated doughs all the time.  His pies seem to turn out amazing.  I really think you will be fine.   His impression is that the KA bread is actually better for high temp refrigerated doughs than KASL.

Offline Randy

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2005, 03:42:03 PM »
Before I found out about KASL I had been buying High Gluten from Sam's when they stopped carrying high gluten flour I went to KA bread flour but was always disappointed that the flavor was not there.  Then I found out about KASL and the flavor came back.  I use sugar in my recipe and Jeff doesn't I don't think.  That may be the reason I find a flavor difference in a cold rise using KASL and Jeff does not.  The sugar seems like gives the yeast something to eat for the long rise to prevent it from consuming the protein before the enzymes get a chance to work.  Pete I am sure will have an answer on this one.  It could be that Jeff's recipe without sugar doesn't benefit from a cold rise as much as a recipe with sugar.

Randy

Offline dankfoot

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2005, 03:42:32 PM »
cool thanks. I guess I will just give it a try..

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2005, 03:54:13 PM »
Chris,

The KA bread flour has 12.7% protein (compared with 14.2% for the KASL). The number "4" you referenced is the amount of protein, in grams, per serving, which is usually 30 grams. Dividing 4 by 30 won't get you 12.7, but that is only because flours are subject to the round-off rule. So the 4 grams can be as low as 3.5 grams or as high as 4.49 grams.

Generally speaking, the stronger the flour, the longer the required fermentation, either at room temperature, in the refrigerator, or a combination of both (all other things being equal). Moving down a notch to bread flour should not be a problem. In fact, Tom Lehmann often recommends that pizza operators do that. Usually it is because the operators are having elasticity problems with the high-protein flour or they don't like the greater chewiness of a high-protein crust. I have used the KA bread flour on several occasions for the NY style when I didn't have access to KASL.

Peter

Offline dankfoot

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2005, 04:35:50 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for your answer. I knew I read that it had a higher protein count than I thought. Also, Im glad you answered because I plan on making your Lehmann recipe tonight.

Usually I make a 16 or 18 inch but I think im going to go with the 12 inch just for me to pratice on. I usually use a screen but I want to learn how to use my stone.

Any suggestions on your 12 or 14 inch with a stone? I was going to turn the oven to the highest temp with the stone on the bottom rack and see what happens.

Usually I use a screen at about 450

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2005, 05:11:03 PM »
Chris,

I usually use the same temperature (the highest my oven produces) for the pizzas baked on a stone (on the lowest oven rack position). Since the 12-inch is smaller in total mass than a 14-inch and will cook faster, you will want to watch your total bake time for the 12-inch size. If the bottom browns too fast, i.e., before the top is baked, you can always move the pizza to the top oven rack and put it under the broiler for a short while. Some people turn the broiler on as soon as the pizza goes into the oven. I usually turn it on toward the end of the time that the pizza is to bake on the stone (say, at minute 4 of a 5-minute bake). Since there are so many oven variations, you will have to play around with yours to get the feel for it when it comes to baking pizzas on your stone. For example, you might find that you get better results using a slightly lower temperature (e.g., 475 degrees F.) or by placing the stone at the middle oven rack position. You'll have to experiment to get the best configuration.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2005, 05:45:03 PM »
I will just have to disagree.  Bread flour will not produce the same flavor that high gluten will using a cold rise recipe.  I think you will find a number of post from the archives that back my taste buds up.  It could be Lehmann is wrong or most likely over simpling his answer to suit the listener which is a common trait of consultants.  Keep the client happy leads to more hours charged.

Randy


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2005, 06:04:04 PM »
Randy,

What I said previously was not with respect to flavor. I agree with you that you won't get the same flavor--or as good a flavor--using the KA bread flour over the KASL, and especially in a retarded dough situation. And, to the best of my knowledge, Tom Lehmann has never said that bread flour would produce a "better flavored" crust than one based on high-gluten flour. It would be imprudent to say that given the personal taste aspects of the matter.

BTW, his advice is given free at the PMQ "Think Tank", and it was there that I read his comments on using bread flour in lieu of high-gluten flour as earlier reported and for the reasons earlier reported. His own recipe for NY style dough calls for high-gluten flour.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2005, 07:29:35 PM »
I miss read your post then Peter.  I consider flavor to be a high priority but I do see your point of view.

Randy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: KA Bread Flour?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2005, 02:21:39 PM »
I saw the following exchange today on the PMQ Think Tank forum (http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/20436) about the differences in a finished crust between using all-purpose flour and high-gluten flour in a NY style dough recipe. The recipe noted is a moderate-hydration version of Tom Lehmann's basic NY style dough recipe. Lehmann also mentions the possible use of bread flour in lieu of high-gluten flour.

Tom, what difference can be expected in the finished crust between using high gluten flour or all purpose flour? This is for a hand tossed, thin crust pizza cooked in a deck oven. The recipe is
       
        100% flour
        60% water
        1.65% salt
        1% oil
        0.25% IDY

Also, what would the effect of adding 2% sugar to this recipe be? Thanks much, Steve

Steve;
I love to see your formula in percentages. Thank you.

For a hand tossed dough you might find that the AP flour doesn't provide sufficient strength to give you a good tossing dough (too soft, or tears too easily). A high gluten, or just a plain strong bread type flour, might serve you much better. The high gluten or stronger flour will also tend to give you a crispier finished crust than an AP flour will. As to adding sugar to the dough formula, this will hasten the browning of the crust, reducing the baking time, maybe even needing a slightly lower baking temperature. This will all add up to a less crispy crust, not a lot, but still less crispy.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Peter
« Last Edit: June 27, 2005, 02:27:54 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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