and so it begins (tonight's pie w/ pic)

[budgetpizza]

First and foremost, this site is amazing. The wealth of information and helpful people is truly profound. After a few months of lurking, I finally registered today after my stone came. Used Steve's quick and easy NY pie recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2790.0.html) with a spicy basil pasta sauce from the fridge, Wegman's WM mozz and generic pepperoni. I tried to keep my expectations low, yet was pleasantly surprised. I didn't take any detail shots because I was just too excited. I guess this is how it starts  

I had a feeling the dough would be a little "bready" tasting, which I didn't mind, but is definitely a point to improve. Beyond that, I'd like to get some more droop, because the crust was pretty stiff. This would come from rolling the dough out thinner? Maybe kneading more? (I've got no machinery, just my hands). Kneaded the mixture for about 5 minutes, let it sit for 15, then kneaded for another 5 and let it sit in the fridge for 1.5 hrs. Baked @ 500 on a stone for 7 minutes, plus 1 minute under the broiler. Any and all suggestions for improvement are welcome!

[Martino1]

hello BP,
I'd say this seems a decent pie. Good start !

Some suggestions from my limited experience
- did you bulk ferment and then divide into balls or straight from bulk to stretching the skins ? If so, you might have pushed down the dough too much and too little air pockets in the dough
- Form the balls after bulk ferment (if 1.5 hours only i think no cold ferment required) and then give them some time for proofing, lets say another  2 hours. However, it depends on your room temp and the amount of yeast used
- check the hydration and adjust to the kind of flour you use (high gluten, 00 require different hydration). If higher gluten you migt want to increase the hydration a bit.
- dont use a rolling pin, but hands to push the air to the rim, if not yet done
- A higher temperature might help with the initial oven spring, making the texture less bready and more airy.

Maybe you could describe your exact procedure of how you ferment, all and proof and the hydration and yeast amount you were using.

edit: after reading steves short timer, he mentions a warm rise and no balling. If you put it into the fridge, i guess the yeast couldn't start their work yet. Try with warm ferment or longer cold rise. Shape the balls after this first rise to give more strength and then let it prove for 2 hours at room temp. then the yeast should have made the dough more airy.

Hope this are some helpful hints.
good luck !

[budgetpizza]

Thanks for the tips. Since this pie I've been working at my recipe and it's getting closer to where I'd like it to be.
As of now I'm only making one pie at a time, so there's no dividing being done. I've recently upped the hydration percentage to around 65-70% and have been getting better results. I only use my hands to stretch- no rolling pin or wine bottle here.
By higher temp do you mean initial dough temperature? Post-ferment/pre-bake temperature? Or oven temperature?

My process for the pie last night (unfortunately I don't have photos) was to hand knead for about 5 minutes, let the ball rest for 20, knead a bit more and ball. Stuck it in the fridge for 24 hours and baked for 7 minutes, then 1 minute under the broiler.

I'm beginning to think that my yeast is dead. I've got a small tub of active dry yeast that's been in my fridge for a little over a month now. The expiration date is sometime in January, but I believe I've read elsewhere that ADY has a short lifespan after being opened...

Otherwise I'm going to start experimenting with same-day pies. The 24 hour thing is annoying and I think I can achieve a pie that I'm happy with with a <6 hour room temp ferment.

[Jet_deck]

Do you measure by weight or volume?  What flour are you using?  It looks like you are well on your way.

ADY should have a relatively long lifespan.  How much of it are you using?

[budgetpizza]

Using KABF by weight. If I remember correctly I've been using 1/4 teaspoon (this is the only ingredient I measure by volume).

[Jet_deck]

sounds good to me.

[budgetpizza]

Well my pies are slowly but surely improving, and today's was especially delicious 
I'd still like to improve though, and I'm curious if more NY style 'droop' is possible given that I'm using KABF and around 65% moisture. I'm enjoying the taste of the crust with sugar, so I think I'll keep that. Any suggestions?

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk269/m0nk4y/10283.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk269/m0nk4y/1028.jpg

[scott123]

Dave, congratulations on your progress.  Your pies are improving exponentially from a month ago.

From what I can tell, your last remaining hurdle is bake time.  Your rigid, non droopy crust is a result of long baking. You can decrease the thickness factor and increase the oil and get a little more flop to your slice, but it won't be the same kind of flop that you see with a faster baked authentic NY style slice.

Tell me a little bit about your oven setup. Is 500 it's peak temp? How high does the dial go? Are you measuring the temp of your pre-heated stone?  How thick is the stone? What are the dimensions of the oven shelf?

[budgetpizza]

Thanks Scott.
I'm not sure exactly what made me do it, but i put in oil into this (today's second) dough so we'll see how it turns out.
The highest number is 500, but there's a little space between that and the broil function, so I turn it to that area- not sure if it's actually any higher than 500 though because I don't have an oven thermometer. I'm leaving the 7/8" 14x16" stone in for an hour before baking- I'm not exactly sure about the dimensions of the shelf, but there's maybe 3 inches to the right and left and maybe 4 to the front (putting the stone all the way to the back).

My bake times have been around 7 minutes, followed by 30 seconds to a minute right under the broiler.

[Davidt321]

Well my pies are slowly but surely improving, and today's was especially delicious 
I'd still like to improve though, and I'm curious if more NY style 'droop' is possible given that I'm using KABF and around 65% moisture. I'm enjoying the taste of the crust with sugar, so I think I'll keep that. Any suggestions?

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk269/m0nk4y/10283.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk269/m0nk4y/1028.jpg

Having lived on long island for a decade searching for mexican food along the way trying pizza everywhere from Montauke to Brooklyn,...Yours looks just perfect.Great pizza.

[budgetpizza]

Thanks David! That means a lot, really.

Well I think the progress is continuing with today's pie. 6.8oz KABF, 1 tablespoon sugar, 1/4 teaspoon ADY, 4.3oz water, balled and fermented at room temperature for ~3 hours, shaped and topped with puttanesca sauce, wegmans pizza-cheese mix, buffalo mozzarella, diced pepperoni and oregano, then fresh basil and parmesan cooked for 6 minutes with broiler turned on.

Got a gigantic bubble on one side of the pie, but otherwise this is probably my best pizza yet. I think next time I'm going to add a little more water- the dough didn't rise much at all in the three hours (more water would do this? or more yeast? what would the effects of varying these?) crust had good flavor and texture, just didn't rise a whole lot.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2dre2cz.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/23vdqnd.jpg

[Pete-zza]

budgetpizza,

Your hydration is fine but the amount of sugar in relation to the amount of flour and yeast (ADY) may be too high. You are using sugar at 6.2% and ADY at 0.49%. Once you get above about 5% sugar, it can draw liquids out of the yeast cells by osmotic pressure and inhibit proper yeast performance. If your objective is to make a three hour dough, which is often called an "emergency" dough, and you wish to keep the sugar at the same level for taste/sweetness or other purposes, you would have to dramatically increase the amount of yeast. You might have to at least double or triple the amount of yeast that you used, so that even if some yeast performance is sacrificed due to the high sugar levels, there will still be enough yeast left to cause the dough to rise. You might also need to use much warmer water in order to insure adequate rise in the dough. The other alternative is to let the dough ferment for a considerably long period of time. If that is done at room temperature, it may take a good part of a day for the dough to ferment properly and achieve the desired rise in the dough. If done in the refrigerator, it might take several days to allow the enzymes to convert the sugars in the dough to a form usable by the the yeast and reach the same point as the room temperature fermented dough.

You didn't say in your post, but I assume that you rehydrated the ADY in a portion of the total formula water, at around 105 degrees F, before adding to the rest of the formula water or to the other ingredients in the bowl.

If you are interested in reading about how sugars and yeast behave in a dough, both quantitatively and qualitatively, you might take a look at the section "Sugar Transformations (Rosada)" in the article at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm).

Peter

[budgetpizza]

Thanks for the tips Pete.

Strictly in terms of taste, the sugar content is right where I want it to be and today's pie rose very nicely with a bit less water (maybe the temperature of the water helped as well?- last time it was around 110 I believe).

For today's pie I used 4.5oz water, (activated the yeast in ~90 degree water), 6.8oz KABF, 1 tablespoon of sugar, 2 tablespoons of oil (regular canola- no EVOO yet) and a bit less than a 1/4 teaspoon of ADY. The dough was easy to work with and doubled nicely in the 3 hour room ferment.

After putting it onto the counter to shape, I knew right away it would be difficult to launch properly, which is the next issue I'd like to address. It opened nicely and stretched well, but even on my floured wooden peel, I couldn't launch it well onto the stone and ended up with a lopsided pizza. On the bright side, the crust is right where I want it to be- airy texture but moist and a little crunch to it, moist and sweet.

I've got four potential solutions to prevent launch problems in the future but I'm not sure how accurate any of them are...

1. Use fewer toppings: I've been using a jarred puttanesca which has olives and capers in it which is probably unnecessary heft
2. Get a bigger peel: I'm using one that I bought at Wegmans- nothing fancy but I'm imagining that with more room for error, I won't get as nervous in launching and will therefore run into fewer problems.
3. Lower the hydration percentage or oil percentage just a bit. Even though the peel was floured, two corners (yes there were corners) kept sticking to the peel.
4. Use more bench flour- since the dough is already formed, it shouldn't really impact the structure of the dough, right? I was very sparing in the bench flour today, just a sprinkle on the dough, a sprinkle on the counter and a sprinkle on my hands. More would probably have made the bottom of the dough more mobile, right?

And yes, I give the peel a few shakes while topping and right before launching. Maybe it's just my nerves and I need to relax?

In any event, I'm getting closer and closer to pies I can be truly proud of and very excited  

http://oi42.tinypic.com/adhkl1.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/28uts9i.jpg