Author Topic: same methods....different hydration!!!  (Read 21384 times)

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Offline fazzari

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same methods....different hydration!!!
« on: September 14, 2011, 05:35:13 PM »
After doing many months of experiments on a pizza I called the "Hybrid Reinhart", I thought I had done all I could to come up with a simple, delicious pizza...at least according to my likes.  So, my thought was to try something totally different.... I started with a 62% hydration dough, using the same percentages of yeast, oil, and honey as the "Hybrid Reinhart".

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Honey (2.%):
Total (168.5%):
Single Ball:
1235.62 g  |  43.58 oz | 2.72 lbs
766.09 g  |  27.02 oz | 1.69 lbs
6.18 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.05 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.43 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.49 tsp | 1.83 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.53 tsp | 1.18 tbsp
2082.02 g | 73.44 oz | 4.59 lbs | TF = N/A
347 g | 12.24 oz | 0.76 lbs

I added the water, yeast, salt, oil and honey to my Kitchen Aid bowl and whisked together.  I then added the flour (KABF) and used the dough hook in my hand to combine the ingredients very roughly.  Then I mixed the dough on stir for 4 minutes......let the dough rest 5 minutes....and then finished the mixing for 3 minutes on stir plus 1/2.  (This is all taken directly from the Reinhart instructions.)  Finished dough temp was about 82 degrees.  Immediately scaled, balled and refrigerated.  I've used the dough from day 2 to day 7, reballing the dough balls the day before usage, and taking doughs out to warm up 1 to 2 hours prior to baking. 

This dough is even better than the Hybrid Reinhart and it really shows in the texture.  While the pizza is crisp enough to stand out on it's own when holding an edge, the crust yields very easily to the tooth, with no chewiness, and is a delight to eat.
The following is a typical result:
John



Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 05:41:14 PM »
Here is the last dough I made from a party on Saturday night.  Again, .50% yeast seems to be no problem, even after seven on one half days in the fridge.  This was baked in my home oven at about 590 degrees.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 06:42:38 PM »
John,

Your same methods, different hydration pies look very tasty.  ;D You are amazing what you can do with your experiments!   :chef:

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 06:45:20 PM »
John,

Very nice. Can you tell us the sizes of the pizzas?

Peter

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 07:24:36 PM »
John, I put this page in favorites and will be trying it out next pizza time. Thanks for the post.
Don

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 09:57:22 PM »
Thanks all
These are 12 inch pizzas after they are baked.......they could be larger, I'm still learning that part and I fear getting them too thin as I don't want to waste a great dough!!

John

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2011, 12:39:18 AM »
John, I just want to say thanks for all your contributions to the forum.  You are a stellar pizza maker, and I enjoy your post.  I would so hit that pizza that you just made, as all your others.  :chef:

7.5 days in the fridge ?  Must have been Very flavorful.

  :)
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 03:51:23 PM »
John, I put this page in favorites and will be trying it out next pizza time. Thanks for the post.
Don

+1   ;D 

I think I'll try this in my Mini Black Egg (having a party on the 2nd)...won't have to get the temps up quite as high. 

Plus, I know the previous method was really, really, exceptionally good, so this one has got to be fantastic! Guess I could give it a home try before then, but I have faith in your process  :chef: John.
Reesa

Offline briterian

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 09:22:15 PM »
What was it that you tried that was 'totally different?'. Looks great.


Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2011, 11:04:14 PM »
Don and Texmex, please let me know how your pizzas turn out.

Briterian......I worked on the original pizza for months, tweeking here and there until I thought there was nothing else i could do.  So, I was ready to move on to something completely different and I had to start somewhere, and i did.  But, in the midst of thinking I was doing something new, i realized that the 10 percent reduction in hydration was one thing I hadn't tried before and it not only improved my original pizza, but made the process even easier, which I love!!
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 08:52:19 PM »
Here is the first dough experiment this week.....36 hours in the fridge, reballed the day before, warmed up two hours prior to bake.  Not much I need to change in this dough....amazing texture, crisp, tender....but, needs another day or two for ultimate flavor.  This pizza was baked in a cooler 520 degree oven.

John

« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 08:57:47 PM by fazzari »

Offline rpmfla

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 08:14:20 PM »
I am new to posting on this forum but have read a lot of the different techniques and recipes. I have tried Peter Taylor's Raquel and Jeff Verasano's percentages/techniques and gotten good results.

I wanted to ask you why you changed the hydration so drastically and what you perceive the difference to be in the taste and texture of your dough that makes you say it is better.

I am baking on a stone in a conventional electric oven which I think tops out at 550. I wondered if your recipe (with oil and honey) is more geared toward regular kitchen ovens (since Jeff and Peter tried to make a dough which performed optimally in a high temperature oven). Also, I have my own starter going well and have tried to limit myself to using that alone now instead of that and IDY which I started out with. I still see most recipes use IDY alone or with starter and not as many recipes with just starter.

By the way, I live in Tampa, so I get to eat a Raquel about once every couple of weeks at Peter's Wood Fired Pizza and Wine Bar. During my "off weeks" I will make my own at home.

My latest attempt at dough was sort of a combination of the Raquel, Jeff V's, and your previous one with higher hydration. I used Jeff's mixing method and did the cold fermentation. Today's I tried without reballing and will try one tomorrow with a reball in the morning. This is the first time I have included oil and honey and I was a little disappointed that there was not a significant difference in texture. Don't get me wrong, it was very good. I just expected the additional ingredients to make more of a difference.

Flour: 100% (2/3 KABF and 1/3 KASL)
Water: 66%
Starter: 10%
Salt: 2.7%
Oil: 2%
Honey: 2%

7 min. at 550.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 10:45:21 AM by rpmfla »

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2011, 11:53:39 PM »
I am new to posting on this forum but have read a lot of the different techniques and recipes. I have tried Peter Taylor's Raquel and Jeff Verasano's percentages/techniques and gotten good results.

I wanted to ask you why you changed the hydration so drastically and what you perceive the difference to be in the taste and texture of your dough that makes you say it is better.

I am baking on a stone in a conventional electric oven which I think tops out at 550. I wondered if your recipe (with oil and honey) is more geared toward regular kitchen ovens (since Jeff and Peter tried to make a dough which performed optimally in a high temperature oven). Also, I have my own starter going well and have tried to limit myself to using that alone now instead of that and IDY which I started out with. I still see most recipes use IDY alone or with starter and not as many recipes with just starter.



By the way, I live in Tampa, so I get to eat a Raquel about once every couple of weeks at Peter's Wood Fired Pizza and Wine Bar. During my "off weeks" I will make my own at home.

My latest attempt at dough was sort of a combination of the Raquel, Jeff V's, and your previous one with higher hydration. I used Jeff's mixing method and did the cold fermentation. Today's I tried without reballing and will try one tomorrow with a reball in the morning. This is the first time I have included oil and honey and I was a little disappointed that there was not a significant difference in texture. Don't get me wrong, it was very good. I just expected the additional ingredients to make more of a difference.

Flour: 100% (2/3 KABF and 1/3 KASL)
Water: 66%
Starter: 10%
Salt: 2.7%
Oil: 2%
Honey: 2%

7 min. at 550.

I experimented many, many months with 72% and up hydrations and thought that I had tweeked and poked every which way to come up with an easy, consistent, dough.  I was personally satisfied to the point where I was going to stop and call it good and go on to other doughs.  My starting point, was a 62% dough using the same percentages of other ingredients and using the same techniques I had been using.  The resulting doughs were very similar to the high hydrations, but were much simpler to work with.  I also found them even more tender...which I adore.

My only complaint these last months has been that I get tired of having to let a dough sit for 4 days to get the excellent texture I adore, and of course the flavor also improves with time.  All of my doughs can be baked in my home oven from as low as 550 degrees to over 610 degrees.  I cannot comment on your doughs as you are mixing and matching methods and I don't know how long your doughs ferment etc.

But, I have come up with a breakthrough this week!!!!  I decided to try using prefermented flour in a batch to see what results I would get.  This week I prefermented 33% of my flour by making a 100% hydration poolish (dash of yeast) which set out at room temperature for 15 hours.  I then added the remaining ingredients and mixed per my recipe.  The following pizza has been in the fridge 2 days, it was reballed the night before baking, and was warmed up 2 hours prior to bake.  The texture is like the texture of a much longer fermented dough, and flavor boost is huge because of the poolish.  This will be my new standard.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2011, 08:15:38 AM »
John,

Great experiment with a preferment in your forumla!  ;D Your recent pie and crumb look delicious.  I can only imagine how great your pie tasted. 

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2011, 11:41:27 AM »
Lucked out again Norma!!!

John

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2011, 02:11:16 PM »
I experimented many, many months with 72% and up hydrations and thought that I had tweeked and poked every which way to come up with an easy, consistent, dough.  I was personally satisfied to the point where I was going to stop and call it good and go on to other doughs.  My starting point, was a 62% dough using the same percentages of other ingredients and using the same techniques I had been using.  The resulting doughs were very similar to the high hydrations, but were much simpler to work with.  I also found them even more tender...which I adore.

My only complaint these last months has been that I get tired of having to let a dough sit for 4 days to get the excellent texture I adore, and of course the flavor also improves with time.  All of my doughs can be baked in my home oven from as low as 550 degrees to over 610 degrees.  I cannot comment on your doughs as you are mixing and matching methods and I don't know how long your doughs ferment etc.

But, I have come up with a breakthrough this week!!!!  I decided to try using prefermented flour in a batch to see what results I would get.  This week I prefermented 33% of my flour by making a 100% hydration poolish (dash of yeast) which set out at room temperature for 15 hours.  I then added the remaining ingredients and mixed per my recipe.  The following pizza has been in the fridge 2 days, it was reballed the night before baking, and was warmed up 2 hours prior to bake.  The texture is like the texture of a much longer fermented dough, and flavor boost is huge because of the poolish.  This will be my new standard.

John


Interesting...Those look great!
now I don't now which dough to prepare for next weekend!  I have been sorely lacking in pizza production lately, hope next weekend ain't a bust!
Reesa

Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 07:56:41 AM »
John,

I was thinking about your recent breakthrough with your prefermented flour batch.  As I posted before your pie looked excellent.  I wanted to ask you a question though, as why you think the dough ball has to be reballed, with a lower hydration.  Do you think you would have got the same texture and taste if the dough ball wasnít reballed?  If not, why do you think a reball makes a difference?

Norma


Offline rpmfla

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 12:05:22 PM »
As I said above, I tried one dough ball without reballing and then a second with reballing. I would have doubted there would be much difference if I hadn't seen and tasted it myself. While the un-reballed dough was tasty and had a good texture, the dough I reballed about 7 hrs. before use was definitely better. It was crispier on the surface, more tender on the inside, had more oven spring, and kept these qualities longer as it cooled (some pies are great when hot out of the oven but get tough too quickly as they cool). It even looked better with amazing "char" for a 550 oven. The only other difference between the reballed and the other was that the reballed had been in the refrigerator for 6 days whereas the other was 4 days.

The drawback is that the reballed dough is not as extensible, so it is a small trade-off of texture/taste vs. ease of use. Perhaps if I reballed 24 hrs. before this would be not be an issue.

Offline rpmfla

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2011, 12:13:05 PM »
Oh, and I was able to make an interesting comparison between my latest batch and a Peter Taylor Raquel pizza which I had leftovers from. When I got to the rims on both the reheated Raquel and my reheated pizza, I pulled apart the crust and smelled the inside of each. The Raquel had a very nice yeast smell, like homemade bread. My crust made with my starter had a stronger, less pleasant smell which suggests my starter is not as mature as Peter's. I am rethinking how I am treating my starter. I had been feeding it once a week and refrigerating it in between. When I'm going to use it I feed and let double then incorporate it into the recipe. From now on I'm going to try feeding it twice a week.

Offline rpmfla

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2011, 12:22:58 PM »
Sorry about hijacking your thread. I just get so inspired by other poster's experiments and how they relate to my own!

Your latest method sure produced a great looking crust!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 12:26:36 PM by rpmfla »

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2011, 01:11:35 PM »
Sorry about hijacking your thread. I just get so inspired by other poster's experiments and how they relate to my own!

Your latest method sure produced a great looking crust!

Please! no apologies....I appreciate any input about experimentation...it's the only way to learn.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2011, 01:23:19 PM »
John,

I was thinking about your recent breakthrough with your prefermented flour batch.  As I posted before your pie looked excellent.  I wanted to ask you a question though, as why you think the dough ball has to be reballed, with a lower hydration.  Do you think you would have got the same texture and taste if the dough ball wasnít reballed?  If not, why do you think a reball makes a difference?

Norma

Norma
As luck would have it, I happen to have some pictures of my first poolish attempt with this dough...I didn't have time to reball it because I was out of town, but I wanted to taste it so bad I simply took it out, warmed it up and used it.  I think the pictures tell you the whole story.  While the pizza was delicious, it had huge blisters, and the bottom just looks and feels entirely different from what I would consider a perfect result.  I wish I had the knowledge to analyze why this is but I'm sorry...I just don't.  Like I've said many times...I am more of an observer of what happens.  Also, I have found this dough rises alot in the refrigerator container, and reballing just helps me manage it better.  Also remember that my original starting point, many, many pizzas ago was a Reinhart recipe where reballing was a matter of process in his method.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2011, 04:28:32 PM »
Norma
As luck would have it, I happen to have some pictures of my first poolish attempt with this dough...I didn't have time to reball it because I was out of town, but I wanted to taste it so bad I simply took it out, warmed it up and used it.  I think the pictures tell you the whole story.  While the pizza was delicious, it had huge blisters, and the bottom just looks and feels entirely different from what I would consider a perfect result.  I wish I had the knowledge to analyze why this is but I'm sorry...I just don't.  Like I've said many times...I am more of an observer of what happens.  Also, I have found this dough rises alot in the refrigerator container, and reballing just helps me manage it better.  Also remember that my original starting point, many, many pizzas ago was a Reinhart recipe where reballing was a matter of process in his method.

John


John,

Thanks for keeping the pictures, because then other members and I could see what your results were without a reball.   :) Your pictures of the crust sure do have huge blisters on the rim.  I would venture to say there would be different members that would like those huge blisters.  It looks like your crumb was still really moist.  I am about like you, I like to observe and see what happens.  It is interesting to hear that your new poolish Reinhart dough still rises a lot with a lower hydration.  I remember that many, many pizzas ago the Reinhart recipe did call for reballing as part of the process.

Your poolish Reinhart dough, might lead me to some more experiments.  I do really like the benefits of a preferment, but still donít know how that will work out for market.  I have also liked the Reinhart doughs a lot, but wanted to get away from a reball.  Guess there is no way around the reball. 

I will have to see if I can figure out a formula that I can try at market again. I doubt I will be able to make your dough work at market, but only time will tell.  What kind of flour did you use for your poolish lower hydration Reinhart dough?

I have enjoyed all your experiments and getting to see your results.  :)

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 02:06:33 AM »
As I said above, I tried one dough ball without reballing and then a second with reballing. I would have doubted there would be much difference if I hadn't seen and tasted it myself. While the un-reballed dough was tasty and had a good texture, the dough I reballed about 7 hrs. before use was definitely better. It was crispier on the surface, more tender on the inside, had more oven spring, and kept these qualities longer as it cooled (some pies are great when hot out of the oven but get tough too quickly as they cool). It even looked better with amazing "char" for a 550 oven. The only other difference between the reballed and the other was that the reballed had been in the refrigerator for 6 days whereas the other was 4 days.

The drawback is that the reballed dough is not as extensible, so it is a small trade-off of texture/taste vs. ease of use. Perhaps if I reballed 24 hrs. before this would be not be an issue.

Thanks for verifying my observations about the reballed dough.  Months ago while experimenting with higher hydrations using this method, I tried using doughs that weren't reballed....and was thoroughly disappointed.  In fact, I made the comment that I would have totally given up the recipes had I NOT known about reballing them.  As for being extensible, this can be handled easily by letting the dough warm up 1 to 2 hours prior to use....I've never had a problem with this.

John,

Thanks for keeping the pictures, because then other members and I could see what your results were without a reball.   :) Your pictures of the crust sure do have huge blisters on the rim.  I would venture to say there would be different members that would like those huge blisters.  It looks like your crumb was still really moist.  I am about like you, I like to observe and see what happens.  It is interesting to hear that your new poolish Reinhart dough still rises a lot with a lower hydration.  I remember that many, many pizzas ago the Reinhart recipe did call for reballing as part of the process.

Your poolish Reinhart dough, might lead me to some more experiments.  I do really like the benefits of a preferment, but still donít know how that will work out for market.  I have also liked the Reinhart doughs a lot, but wanted to get away from a reball.  Guess there is no way around the reball. 

I will have to see if I can figure out a formula that I can try at market again. I doubt I will be able to make your dough work at market, but only time will tell.  What kind of flour did you use for your poolish lower hydration Reinhart dough?

I have enjoyed all your experiments and getting to see your results.  :)

Norma
Although I agree with you that some members would "like" the blisters....the blisters and the different look of the bottom are just what you "see".  The pizza has a different mouth appeal, is a little dryer and just is inferior in my way of thinking.  Now, having said that, I had a pizza party awhile ago where I served 72% doughs and 62% doughs, both made in the Reinhart mode.  I did alot of quizzing, and though everyone loved the pizzas, the group considered the 62% pizzas a bit more tender.....and that is when I thought I better experiment a bit more....and then I came up with the poolish.....which is the answer to my dreams.  All of these doughs are made with KABF Norma.  And so my next question has to be...how long will these doughs made with poolish last.  So, here is one we made after work tonight, the dough was in the fridge four and a half days, it was reballed 14 hours prior to baking, and it was taken out to warm up for 1 hour.  It was baked in a 600 degree oven.  It got rave reviews from my trusty cohorts.

John

Offline rpmfla

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 06:06:41 PM »
John,

I'd say that is some of the best looking dough I have seen on this forum! It looks crispy on the surface and tender inside, which is what I am striving for.


 

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