Author Topic: same methods....different hydration!!!  (Read 20612 times)

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 12:42:15 AM »
I am really loving the pizza you made.Simply salivating to look at!

Thanks for sharing all that with us!
 8)
-Bill


Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2011, 11:13:02 AM »
I'm making dough today, but I used 33% poolish using 100 grams of ready starter. But my amounts are triple what you have posted, cuz I need a lot of doughballs.  Now I have no idea if I should add some yeast.  Why do I do these things?  I just don't seem to be able to stick to the recipes, and I have to cut the poolish into 3rds to get my KA to mix the batches, cuz no way can it handle 8 pounds of dough at once.  :-\  I forgot this recipe called for IDY, as I have only ADY..then I got it into my head to use starter.  I bet it will all be just fine!  :P
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2011, 01:38:34 PM »
John,

I'd say that is some of the best looking dough I have seen on this forum! It looks crispy on the surface and tender inside, which is what I am striving for.

Remember it's simply one way to make a dough out of the infinite ways available using differing inputs and techniques.  I like it alot.

I am really loving the pizza you made.Simply salivating to look at!

Thanks for sharing all that with us!
 8)


No need to thank Bill, this is fun stuff to me!!

I'm making dough today, but I used 33% poolish using 100 grams of ready starter. But my amounts are triple what you have posted, cuz I need a lot of doughballs.  Now I have no idea if I should add some yeast.  Why do I do these things?  I just don't seem to be able to stick to the recipes, and I have to cut the poolish into 3rds to get my KA to mix the batches, cuz no way can it handle 8 pounds of dough at once.  :-\  I forgot this recipe called for IDY, as I have only ADY..then I got it into my head to use starter.  I bet it will all be just fine!  :P

Please keep us posted on how it all works out...pictures please!!!

After enjoying five days of dough using 33% prefermented flour last week...I wondered what would happen if I used 50% prefermented flour.  The following pizza was made from a dough using 50% of the flour in a 100% hydrated poolish.  The poolish sat for 16 hours at room temperature.  The final dough ball was only in the fridge for 19 hours and yes I reballed it 9 hours prior to removing from the fridge because I don't want to change more than one factor at a time.  This pizza was baked in my home oven (600 degrees), took all of 4 minutes, weighs 12 ounces, is 12 inches in diameter and again the dough is crisp enough to stand out when held on edge, but so tender your teeth just glide through it.  Again, what I'm happy about is that without using prefermented flour, I would have to wait 3 to 4 days to get this texture, but the added bonus is that the poolish gives it a ton of flavor.

John





Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2011, 02:15:50 PM »
John,

Interesting that you could use 50% prefermented flour in a dough and the pizza would turn out so great.  Did you ever try out 50% prefermented flour in any other formulas before?  I can understand the poolish does give a ton of flavor in a short time.  Great job on your experiments!  :chef:  Your pizza looks outstanding!

Norma

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2011, 06:16:07 PM »
Okay, so I ended up having a few packets of IDY...I split one little package amongst the 3 batches of dough I made, so they got roughly 2.5 grams of yeast each along with the starter. 

I wanted to mention that I love the texture of this dough!  It is ...hmmm, silky. Yeah, silky. 

I am hoping the dough won't blow out before Sunday, but I will reball on Saturday night and hope for the best.  I used Sam's Club Bread Flour, 2% honey, 2% Olive Oil, 2% Kosher Salt, starter, idy and 62% hydration.  I have no idea what the percentage of IDY or starter is, but I know how I prepared the dough, which is part of the battle (documentation being everything!).

Basically, my 1/3 poolish preferment total was created last night with an amendment taking into consideration 100 grams of my 100% hydrated starter (deducted from the total flour/water amount needed).  50 grams less of each from the preferment guideline as provided by the preferment dough tool. Does that make sense?  Well, it did to me!   :-D

Having never combined starter and IDY, I decided to go for it, since I had seen this method being utilized by many of our fine  :pizza: :chef: experimenters.  I didn't take time to research the amounts I should have used but, I'll have to take what I get now. LOL

I used the mixing guidelines for KA mixer as detailed in post number 1.  Silky dough, I am still amazed by how it felt...like I could use it in an hour.  Should have tried that!   

I hope we can tame the heat in my MBE -- it does tend to cool from 700's to 600 and below very easily with a sporadic dome heat of 450 to 650...so I think it's gonna be much easier to use this dough rather than constantly trying to keep heat up for Neapolitan style. 

I will take plenty of pics, and post on Monday if I can.

Thanks again for posting your latest results!  The last doughs I made based on your experiments were so so so good, and I look forward to Winter pizzas in the home oven from now on. The texture was truly fine as you describe (crisp, tender and luscious) so I can't wait to taste this new bastahdized batch.
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2011, 11:26:25 PM »
John,

Interesting that you could use 50% prefermented flour in a dough and the pizza would turn out so great.  Did you ever try out 50% prefermented flour in any other formulas before?  I can understand the poolish does give a ton of flavor in a short time.  Great job on your experiments!  :chef:  Your pizza looks outstanding!

Norma

This was a first as far as pizza goes...I might have tried it with bread though.  Can't wait for the doughs the rest of the week!!!
John
Okay, so I ended up having a few packets of IDY...I split one little package amongst the 3 batches of dough I made, so they got roughly 2.5 grams of yeast each along with the starter. 

I wanted to mention that I love the texture of this dough!  It is ...hmmm, silky. Yeah, silky. 

I am hoping the dough won't blow out before Sunday, but I will reball on Saturday night and hope for the best.  I used Sam's Club Bread Flour, 2% honey, 2% Olive Oil, 2% Kosher Salt, starter, idy and 62% hydration.  I have no idea what the percentage of IDY or starter is, but I know how I prepared the dough, which is part of the battle (documentation being everything!).

Basically, my 1/3 poolish preferment total was created last night with an amendment taking into consideration 100 grams of my 100% hydrated starter (deducted from the total flour/water amount needed).  50 grams less of each from the preferment guideline as provided by the preferment dough tool. Does that make sense?  Well, it did to me!   :-D

Having never combined starter and IDY, I decided to go for it, since I had seen this method being utilized by many of our fine  :pizza: :chef: experimenters.  I didn't take time to research the amounts I should have used but, I'll have to take what I get now. LOL

I used the mixing guidelines for KA mixer as detailed in post number 1.  Silky dough, I am still amazed by how it felt...like I could use it in an hour.  Should have tried that!   

I hope we can tame the heat in my MBE -- it does tend to cool from 700's to 600 and below very easily with a sporadic dome heat of 450 to 650...so I think it's gonna be much easier to use this dough rather than constantly trying to keep heat up for Neapolitan style. 

I will take plenty of pics, and post on Monday if I can.

Thanks again for posting your latest results!  The last doughs I made based on your experiments were so so so good, and I look forward to Winter pizzas in the home oven from now on. The texture was truly fine as you describe (crisp, tender and luscious) so I can't wait to taste this new bastahdized batch.

Have a screen ready, in case your stone is too hot for your dough...just monitor the  bottom...best of luck!!!

John

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2011, 12:11:26 PM »

John, I am looking forward to more mature dough pics and commentary on your latest method!
 8)

Have a screen ready, in case your stone is too hot for your dough...just monitor the  bottom...best of luck!!!

John

I think my stone temp will be right on, since it is always hard work keeping the temps up real high for NP's.  I have a gut feeling this dough will work nicely in the MBE.  A screen?  well, I never! :P but maybe I should invest in one.  Ah, Christmas is just around the corner...and what's a little charring to the starving masses?  :-D

Reesa
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2011, 11:10:36 PM »
Day 2 dough


Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2011, 03:05:59 PM »
Mission accomplished!   :o

When I saw that my dough had developed so much I was pretty worried, but I reballed Sunday morning at 6 since we didn't plan on cooking until 2.  (just like John's method-8 hours prior to cooking).  The dough behaved wonderfully!

The biggest fight we had was taming the heat on the MBE...figures since normally we can't keep it hot enough for Neapolitan style  :-D  I need to invest in a pressure gauge..and a screen would really have come in handy here as John suggested.

After about 15 pies the remaining 15 were working out beautifully.  I need to stop putting so much cheese on my pizzas! (but nobody was complaining about too much cheese) :D

The shot that shows pineapple is called "obligatory" since it seems that I have observed many a fine crumb shot in this forum that also includes the supposedly dreaded pineapple!  That was my cousin's combo..and the roasted red pepper, garlic, pepperoni, pineapple and 3 cheeses was divine!

The texture of this cooked dough was really awesome.  Thank you for your contributions!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 03:10:00 PM by texmex »
Reesa


Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2011, 03:08:08 PM »
MORE pics:
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2011, 01:11:39 AM »
Congratulations!!!  Nice looking pizza, especially the bottom shot....I think the bottoms tell the story.  You must have had some very happy People after this feast!
John

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2011, 10:26:32 AM »
Looks excellent, Congrats Reesa.
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Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2011, 04:47:16 PM »
Congratulations!!!  Nice looking pizza, especially the bottom shot....I think the bottoms tell the story.  You must have had some very happy People after this feast!
John

The bottoms do tell the story...that is why I did not even take pics of the bottoms of the first half of my results! LOL 
...mostly they were all kinda pizzzzed off about the Cowboys giving up that nice lead they held for another WTF? loss. 

Thanks again for the recipe, John.  It is a keeper, and I will continue to try and tweak my MBE to handle the heat at a moderate temp for this dough.  I thought it was gonna be so simple to tame the heat, and it was pretty much a bunch of the same except trying to decrease heat, instead of increase it!   ::)  Now that summer is almost behind us here in TX, I am surely gonna use this dough in my oven.
Reesa

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2011, 05:43:17 PM »
Your pies are looking great Reesa! Dallas Cowgirls... not so much...

Craig
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Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2011, 07:36:02 PM »
Reessa,

You did a great job, in using Johnís formula for your pizzas!  :) The crumb looks so moist.

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2011, 10:17:04 PM »
I had a great week experimenting with these doughs.  In the back of my mind though was the thought they would age very quickly given the level of prefermented flour they had.  But, really all I noticed is that when you get to days 4 and 5, the dough really resists being reballed...but I prevailed and was rewarded with excellent pizza.  Again, with this dough I wanted a great tasting dough in a shorter amount of time..and the results were great...but now knowing the dough ages well it's like an extra bonus.  The following is a breakfast pizza we had Monday...the dough had been in the fridge 5 days.

John


Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2011, 01:55:11 PM »
Your pies are looking great Reesa! Dallas Cowgirls... not so much...

Craig
Thanks Craig...
Damn that squirrely football.
Reesa


Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2011, 01:56:17 PM »
I had a great week experimenting with these doughs.  In the back of my mind though was the thought they would age very quickly given the level of prefermented flour they had.  But, really all I noticed is that when you get to days 4 and 5, the dough really resists being reballed...but I prevailed and was rewarded with excellent pizza.  Again, with this dough I wanted a great tasting dough in a shorter amount of time..and the results were great...but now knowing the dough ages well it's like an extra bonus.  The following is a breakfast pizza we had Monday...the dough had been in the fridge 5 days.

John



I appreciate the update on fighting the reball...without this info, I might be tempted to toss the dough if it was fighting me.
Reesa

Offline eloise

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2011, 02:30:40 PM »
John,
Your pizza looks great and I like the fact that it is crisp and doesn't flop. Are you using Caputo 00 flour or KABF?  Do you think this dough would perform as well in a WF brick oven with a temperature of 800 degrees?  Have you ever tried a combination of the two types of flours?  Thanks. :-\

eloise

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2011, 03:13:53 AM »
John,
Your pizza looks great and I like the fact that it is crisp and doesn't flop. Are you using Caputo 00 flour or KABF?  Do you think this dough would perform as well in a WF brick oven with a temperature of 800 degrees?  Have you ever tried a combination of the two types of flours?  Thanks. :-\

eloise
I've just been using straight KABF lately......I don't know about an 800 degree oven...I can get my home oven up to about 610 degrees.  Wednesday I baked one in under 4 minutes ...it was golden brown, crisp and tender......so I don't know how to answer your question regarding a hotter oven..My guess though, is that it will burn.

John

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2011, 05:54:08 PM »
I've just been using straight KABF lately......I don't know about an 800 degree oven...I can get my home oven up to about 610 degrees.  Wednesday I baked one in under 4 minutes ...it was golden brown, crisp and tender......so I don't know how to answer your question regarding a hotter oven..My guess though, is that it will burn.

John

I would think it will burn as well in a WFO, since 700 degree temps were seriously scorching (burnt black  :-D in some spots) the bottoms of my pies. 
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2011, 10:45:09 PM »
I would think it will burn as well in a WFO, since 700 degree temps were seriously scorching (burnt black  :-D in some spots) the bottoms of my pies.  

One thing I've learned is that I'm not very good at predicting outcomes when it comes to dough...so, i guess that means you just keep experimenting!!

I made a 62% dough this week using 33% prefermented flour (poolish).  I baked the following pizza in my home oven 19 hours after I started the poolish.....pretty darned good pizza, with great flavor...and the pizzas just got better as the week went on...the quality of the doughs don't improve at such a great rate as they age using the poolish.

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2011, 10:43:29 PM »
John,
Your pizza looks great and I like the fact that it is crisp and doesn't flop. Are you using Caputo 00 flour or KABF?  Do you think this dough would perform as well in a WF brick oven with a temperature of 800 degrees?  Have you ever tried a combination of the two types of flours?  Thanks. :-\

eloise

Eloise
Your question got me to wondering...I have a demon like deck oven at work I can get up to 750 degrees, so I thought I would try my last dough of the week in a very hot oven.  This dough was in the fridge 5 days and was reballed the night before.  It was baked at 752 degrees.....after two minutes I threw a screen under it to make sure I didn't scorch it, and it came out at the 3 minutes mark.  This hot of a bake changes the pizza entirely...it is now much more chewy and floppy....I still prefer a slower bake in a cooler oven to obtain nice crispness on the bottom.

John


Offline eloise

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2011, 11:04:24 AM »
John,
Last night we made dough using a totally new flour. We tried Apollo high gluten flour, adding olive oil and sugar.
It is strictly an experiment and deviating from the Neopolitan recipe. Tonight we'll make pizza and I'll let you know the result. 

Thanks,
eloise :-\

Offline eloise

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2011, 08:54:44 PM »
Eloise
Your question got me to wondering...I have a demon like deck oven at work I can get up to 750 degrees, so I thought I would try my last dough of the week in a very hot oven.  This dough was in the fridge 5 days and was reballed the night before.  It was baked at 752 degrees.....after two minutes I threw a screen under it to make sure I didn't scorch it, and it came out at the 3 minutes mark.  This hot of a bake changes the pizza entirely...it is now much more chewy and floppy....I still prefer a slower bake in a cooler oven to obtain nice crispness on the bottom.

John



Well John, I can't say that I was satisfied with the dough made with the Apollo high gluten flour. Of course my recipe was not followed correctly.  The dough maker decided to increase the sugar and oil and decrease the water.  N.G. in my opinion.  It was puffy around the edge (cornicione) but still not cooked enough in the center. I'm wondering if it is because we're making a 18" pizza.  We're beginning to think that the floor of the wood burning oven isn't 800 degrees as the interior temperature is. Experimenting with this wood burning oven is really getting to be quite a challenge.  It seems we're back to square one, not knowing if it's a dough problem or an oven problem.  I'm ready to throw in the towel. :(