Author Topic: same methods....different hydration!!!  (Read 13889 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2011, 01:11:35 PM »
Sorry about hijacking your thread. I just get so inspired by other poster's experiments and how they relate to my own!

Your latest method sure produced a great looking crust!

Please! no apologies....I appreciate any input about experimentation...it's the only way to learn.

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2011, 01:23:19 PM »
John,

I was thinking about your recent breakthrough with your prefermented flour batch.  As I posted before your pie looked excellent.  I wanted to ask you a question though, as why you think the dough ball has to be reballed, with a lower hydration.  Do you think you would have got the same texture and taste if the dough ball wasnít reballed?  If not, why do you think a reball makes a difference?

Norma

Norma
As luck would have it, I happen to have some pictures of my first poolish attempt with this dough...I didn't have time to reball it because I was out of town, but I wanted to taste it so bad I simply took it out, warmed it up and used it.  I think the pictures tell you the whole story.  While the pizza was delicious, it had huge blisters, and the bottom just looks and feels entirely different from what I would consider a perfect result.  I wish I had the knowledge to analyze why this is but I'm sorry...I just don't.  Like I've said many times...I am more of an observer of what happens.  Also, I have found this dough rises alot in the refrigerator container, and reballing just helps me manage it better.  Also remember that my original starting point, many, many pizzas ago was a Reinhart recipe where reballing was a matter of process in his method.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2011, 04:28:32 PM »
Norma
As luck would have it, I happen to have some pictures of my first poolish attempt with this dough...I didn't have time to reball it because I was out of town, but I wanted to taste it so bad I simply took it out, warmed it up and used it.  I think the pictures tell you the whole story.  While the pizza was delicious, it had huge blisters, and the bottom just looks and feels entirely different from what I would consider a perfect result.  I wish I had the knowledge to analyze why this is but I'm sorry...I just don't.  Like I've said many times...I am more of an observer of what happens.  Also, I have found this dough rises alot in the refrigerator container, and reballing just helps me manage it better.  Also remember that my original starting point, many, many pizzas ago was a Reinhart recipe where reballing was a matter of process in his method.

John


John,

Thanks for keeping the pictures, because then other members and I could see what your results were without a reball.   :) Your pictures of the crust sure do have huge blisters on the rim.  I would venture to say there would be different members that would like those huge blisters.  It looks like your crumb was still really moist.  I am about like you, I like to observe and see what happens.  It is interesting to hear that your new poolish Reinhart dough still rises a lot with a lower hydration.  I remember that many, many pizzas ago the Reinhart recipe did call for reballing as part of the process.

Your poolish Reinhart dough, might lead me to some more experiments.  I do really like the benefits of a preferment, but still donít know how that will work out for market.  I have also liked the Reinhart doughs a lot, but wanted to get away from a reball.  Guess there is no way around the reball. 

I will have to see if I can figure out a formula that I can try at market again. I doubt I will be able to make your dough work at market, but only time will tell.  What kind of flour did you use for your poolish lower hydration Reinhart dough?

I have enjoyed all your experiments and getting to see your results.  :)

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 02:06:33 AM »
As I said above, I tried one dough ball without reballing and then a second with reballing. I would have doubted there would be much difference if I hadn't seen and tasted it myself. While the un-reballed dough was tasty and had a good texture, the dough I reballed about 7 hrs. before use was definitely better. It was crispier on the surface, more tender on the inside, had more oven spring, and kept these qualities longer as it cooled (some pies are great when hot out of the oven but get tough too quickly as they cool). It even looked better with amazing "char" for a 550 oven. The only other difference between the reballed and the other was that the reballed had been in the refrigerator for 6 days whereas the other was 4 days.

The drawback is that the reballed dough is not as extensible, so it is a small trade-off of texture/taste vs. ease of use. Perhaps if I reballed 24 hrs. before this would be not be an issue.

Thanks for verifying my observations about the reballed dough.  Months ago while experimenting with higher hydrations using this method, I tried using doughs that weren't reballed....and was thoroughly disappointed.  In fact, I made the comment that I would have totally given up the recipes had I NOT known about reballing them.  As for being extensible, this can be handled easily by letting the dough warm up 1 to 2 hours prior to use....I've never had a problem with this.

John,

Thanks for keeping the pictures, because then other members and I could see what your results were without a reball.   :) Your pictures of the crust sure do have huge blisters on the rim.  I would venture to say there would be different members that would like those huge blisters.  It looks like your crumb was still really moist.  I am about like you, I like to observe and see what happens.  It is interesting to hear that your new poolish Reinhart dough still rises a lot with a lower hydration.  I remember that many, many pizzas ago the Reinhart recipe did call for reballing as part of the process.

Your poolish Reinhart dough, might lead me to some more experiments.  I do really like the benefits of a preferment, but still donít know how that will work out for market.  I have also liked the Reinhart doughs a lot, but wanted to get away from a reball.  Guess there is no way around the reball. 

I will have to see if I can figure out a formula that I can try at market again. I doubt I will be able to make your dough work at market, but only time will tell.  What kind of flour did you use for your poolish lower hydration Reinhart dough?

I have enjoyed all your experiments and getting to see your results.  :)

Norma
Although I agree with you that some members would "like" the blisters....the blisters and the different look of the bottom are just what you "see".  The pizza has a different mouth appeal, is a little dryer and just is inferior in my way of thinking.  Now, having said that, I had a pizza party awhile ago where I served 72% doughs and 62% doughs, both made in the Reinhart mode.  I did alot of quizzing, and though everyone loved the pizzas, the group considered the 62% pizzas a bit more tender.....and that is when I thought I better experiment a bit more....and then I came up with the poolish.....which is the answer to my dreams.  All of these doughs are made with KABF Norma.  And so my next question has to be...how long will these doughs made with poolish last.  So, here is one we made after work tonight, the dough was in the fridge four and a half days, it was reballed 14 hours prior to baking, and it was taken out to warm up for 1 hour.  It was baked in a 600 degree oven.  It got rave reviews from my trusty cohorts.

John

Offline rpmfla

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 06:06:41 PM »
John,

I'd say that is some of the best looking dough I have seen on this forum! It looks crispy on the surface and tender inside, which is what I am striving for.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 12:42:15 AM »
I am really loving the pizza you made.Simply salivating to look at!

Thanks for sharing all that with us!
 8)
-Bill

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2011, 11:13:02 AM »
I'm making dough today, but I used 33% poolish using 100 grams of ready starter. But my amounts are triple what you have posted, cuz I need a lot of doughballs.  Now I have no idea if I should add some yeast.  Why do I do these things?  I just don't seem to be able to stick to the recipes, and I have to cut the poolish into 3rds to get my KA to mix the batches, cuz no way can it handle 8 pounds of dough at once.  :-\  I forgot this recipe called for IDY, as I have only ADY..then I got it into my head to use starter.  I bet it will all be just fine!  :P
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2011, 01:38:34 PM »
John,

I'd say that is some of the best looking dough I have seen on this forum! It looks crispy on the surface and tender inside, which is what I am striving for.

Remember it's simply one way to make a dough out of the infinite ways available using differing inputs and techniques.  I like it alot.

I am really loving the pizza you made.Simply salivating to look at!

Thanks for sharing all that with us!
 8)


No need to thank Bill, this is fun stuff to me!!

I'm making dough today, but I used 33% poolish using 100 grams of ready starter. But my amounts are triple what you have posted, cuz I need a lot of doughballs.  Now I have no idea if I should add some yeast.  Why do I do these things?  I just don't seem to be able to stick to the recipes, and I have to cut the poolish into 3rds to get my KA to mix the batches, cuz no way can it handle 8 pounds of dough at once.  :-\  I forgot this recipe called for IDY, as I have only ADY..then I got it into my head to use starter.  I bet it will all be just fine!  :P

Please keep us posted on how it all works out...pictures please!!!

After enjoying five days of dough using 33% prefermented flour last week...I wondered what would happen if I used 50% prefermented flour.  The following pizza was made from a dough using 50% of the flour in a 100% hydrated poolish.  The poolish sat for 16 hours at room temperature.  The final dough ball was only in the fridge for 19 hours and yes I reballed it 9 hours prior to removing from the fridge because I don't want to change more than one factor at a time.  This pizza was baked in my home oven (600 degrees), took all of 4 minutes, weighs 12 ounces, is 12 inches in diameter and again the dough is crisp enough to stand out when held on edge, but so tender your teeth just glide through it.  Again, what I'm happy about is that without using prefermented flour, I would have to wait 3 to 4 days to get this texture, but the added bonus is that the poolish gives it a ton of flavor.

John





Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2011, 02:15:50 PM »
John,

Interesting that you could use 50% prefermented flour in a dough and the pizza would turn out so great.  Did you ever try out 50% prefermented flour in any other formulas before?  I can understand the poolish does give a ton of flavor in a short time.  Great job on your experiments!  :chef:  Your pizza looks outstanding!

Norma
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Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2011, 06:16:07 PM »
Okay, so I ended up having a few packets of IDY...I split one little package amongst the 3 batches of dough I made, so they got roughly 2.5 grams of yeast each along with the starter. 

I wanted to mention that I love the texture of this dough!  It is ...hmmm, silky. Yeah, silky. 

I am hoping the dough won't blow out before Sunday, but I will reball on Saturday night and hope for the best.  I used Sam's Club Bread Flour, 2% honey, 2% Olive Oil, 2% Kosher Salt, starter, idy and 62% hydration.  I have no idea what the percentage of IDY or starter is, but I know how I prepared the dough, which is part of the battle (documentation being everything!).

Basically, my 1/3 poolish preferment total was created last night with an amendment taking into consideration 100 grams of my 100% hydrated starter (deducted from the total flour/water amount needed).  50 grams less of each from the preferment guideline as provided by the preferment dough tool. Does that make sense?  Well, it did to me!   :-D

Having never combined starter and IDY, I decided to go for it, since I had seen this method being utilized by many of our fine  :pizza: :chef: experimenters.  I didn't take time to research the amounts I should have used but, I'll have to take what I get now. LOL

I used the mixing guidelines for KA mixer as detailed in post number 1.  Silky dough, I am still amazed by how it felt...like I could use it in an hour.  Should have tried that!   

I hope we can tame the heat in my MBE -- it does tend to cool from 700's to 600 and below very easily with a sporadic dome heat of 450 to 650...so I think it's gonna be much easier to use this dough rather than constantly trying to keep heat up for Neapolitan style. 

I will take plenty of pics, and post on Monday if I can.

Thanks again for posting your latest results!  The last doughs I made based on your experiments were so so so good, and I look forward to Winter pizzas in the home oven from now on. The texture was truly fine as you describe (crisp, tender and luscious) so I can't wait to taste this new bastahdized batch.
Reesa


Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2011, 11:26:25 PM »
John,

Interesting that you could use 50% prefermented flour in a dough and the pizza would turn out so great.  Did you ever try out 50% prefermented flour in any other formulas before?  I can understand the poolish does give a ton of flavor in a short time.  Great job on your experiments!  :chef:  Your pizza looks outstanding!

Norma

This was a first as far as pizza goes...I might have tried it with bread though.  Can't wait for the doughs the rest of the week!!!
John
Okay, so I ended up having a few packets of IDY...I split one little package amongst the 3 batches of dough I made, so they got roughly 2.5 grams of yeast each along with the starter. 

I wanted to mention that I love the texture of this dough!  It is ...hmmm, silky. Yeah, silky. 

I am hoping the dough won't blow out before Sunday, but I will reball on Saturday night and hope for the best.  I used Sam's Club Bread Flour, 2% honey, 2% Olive Oil, 2% Kosher Salt, starter, idy and 62% hydration.  I have no idea what the percentage of IDY or starter is, but I know how I prepared the dough, which is part of the battle (documentation being everything!).

Basically, my 1/3 poolish preferment total was created last night with an amendment taking into consideration 100 grams of my 100% hydrated starter (deducted from the total flour/water amount needed).  50 grams less of each from the preferment guideline as provided by the preferment dough tool. Does that make sense?  Well, it did to me!   :-D

Having never combined starter and IDY, I decided to go for it, since I had seen this method being utilized by many of our fine  :pizza: :chef: experimenters.  I didn't take time to research the amounts I should have used but, I'll have to take what I get now. LOL

I used the mixing guidelines for KA mixer as detailed in post number 1.  Silky dough, I am still amazed by how it felt...like I could use it in an hour.  Should have tried that!   

I hope we can tame the heat in my MBE -- it does tend to cool from 700's to 600 and below very easily with a sporadic dome heat of 450 to 650...so I think it's gonna be much easier to use this dough rather than constantly trying to keep heat up for Neapolitan style. 

I will take plenty of pics, and post on Monday if I can.

Thanks again for posting your latest results!  The last doughs I made based on your experiments were so so so good, and I look forward to Winter pizzas in the home oven from now on. The texture was truly fine as you describe (crisp, tender and luscious) so I can't wait to taste this new bastahdized batch.

Have a screen ready, in case your stone is too hot for your dough...just monitor the  bottom...best of luck!!!

John

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2011, 12:11:26 PM »

John, I am looking forward to more mature dough pics and commentary on your latest method!
 8)

Have a screen ready, in case your stone is too hot for your dough...just monitor the  bottom...best of luck!!!

John

I think my stone temp will be right on, since it is always hard work keeping the temps up real high for NP's.  I have a gut feeling this dough will work nicely in the MBE.  A screen?  well, I never! :P but maybe I should invest in one.  Ah, Christmas is just around the corner...and what's a little charring to the starving masses?  :-D

Reesa
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2011, 11:10:36 PM »
Day 2 dough


Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2011, 03:05:59 PM »
Mission accomplished!   :o

When I saw that my dough had developed so much I was pretty worried, but I reballed Sunday morning at 6 since we didn't plan on cooking until 2.  (just like John's method-8 hours prior to cooking).  The dough behaved wonderfully!

The biggest fight we had was taming the heat on the MBE...figures since normally we can't keep it hot enough for Neapolitan style  :-D  I need to invest in a pressure gauge..and a screen would really have come in handy here as John suggested.

After about 15 pies the remaining 15 were working out beautifully.  I need to stop putting so much cheese on my pizzas! (but nobody was complaining about too much cheese) :D

The shot that shows pineapple is called "obligatory" since it seems that I have observed many a fine crumb shot in this forum that also includes the supposedly dreaded pineapple!  That was my cousin's combo..and the roasted red pepper, garlic, pepperoni, pineapple and 3 cheeses was divine!

The texture of this cooked dough was really awesome.  Thank you for your contributions!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 03:10:00 PM by texmex »
Reesa

Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2011, 03:08:08 PM »
MORE pics:
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2011, 01:11:39 AM »
Congratulations!!!  Nice looking pizza, especially the bottom shot....I think the bottoms tell the story.  You must have had some very happy People after this feast!
John

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2011, 10:26:32 AM »
Looks excellent, Congrats Reesa.
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Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2011, 04:47:16 PM »
Congratulations!!!  Nice looking pizza, especially the bottom shot....I think the bottoms tell the story.  You must have had some very happy People after this feast!
John

The bottoms do tell the story...that is why I did not even take pics of the bottoms of the first half of my results! LOL 
...mostly they were all kinda pizzzzed off about the Cowboys giving up that nice lead they held for another WTF? loss. 

Thanks again for the recipe, John.  It is a keeper, and I will continue to try and tweak my MBE to handle the heat at a moderate temp for this dough.  I thought it was gonna be so simple to tame the heat, and it was pretty much a bunch of the same except trying to decrease heat, instead of increase it!   ::)  Now that summer is almost behind us here in TX, I am surely gonna use this dough in my oven.
Reesa

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2011, 05:43:17 PM »
Your pies are looking great Reesa! Dallas Cowgirls... not so much...

Craig
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Offline norma427

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2011, 07:36:02 PM »
Reessa,

You did a great job, in using Johnís formula for your pizzas!  :) The crumb looks so moist.

Norma
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