Author Topic: same methods....different hydration!!!  (Read 20555 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2013, 11:21:51 PM »
John: I've been really impressed by your work with preferments and also your thread on the effects of bulk fermentation. I now have my 33 percent preferment into it's 10th hour on the counter. I see in this thread that you talk about lightly balling, refrigerating, and then re-balling. What I'm wondering (and my apologies if it is already in the bulk thread... I didn't see it) is if you have tried to bulk ferment (instead of lightly balling) and then ball 12-24 hours before baking.

Barry
I have tried everything Barry, I have all kinds of experiments in many threads

Here is an example, and I think it talks about your question
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16618.0.html

John


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2013, 11:31:46 PM »
Mr. fazzari knows pizza...beyond a shadow of a doubt.  8)
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Offline bfguilford

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2013, 07:25:14 AM »
I have tried everything Barry, I have all kinds of experiments in many threads

Here is an example, and I think it talks about your question
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16618.0.html

John

Thanks, John. It sure does answer my question. This time around, I have time to bulk ferment for around 42 hours. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this turns out, and will post results after baking (as I usually do when I start to use a new dough, I'll start a new thread so I can keep track of progress).

Barry
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Offline bfguilford

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #78 on: February 17, 2013, 09:15:41 PM »
First try at this, and all I can say is WOW.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ed71839c6f399f5f5d736d3340434ee1&topic=23460.0

Thank you, John.

Barry
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Offline texmex

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
Thanks again, John for your experiments.  I am back at it, and recalled a succulent few pizzas made in my home oven using your methods  :chef: 

Just got my starter going again (made 30 pies on Sunday-but was not completely pleased with my rushed results-- although the group was satisfied)

Having come back to this thread I look forward to playing with dough again. ;D
Reesa

Offline pythonic

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2013, 07:43:38 PM »
Ahhh this thread is back on the front page again.  John's poolish experiment is a must, give it a try.  One of the best tasting doughs I have ever made.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2013, 10:46:57 PM »
I like that dough too!!!  But, try this method for mixing it...I think you'll find it much easier to handle!!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27485.0.html

John

Offline pizza is love

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2014, 08:11:05 PM »
Sorry I know this is a old thread but Is there a final dough formulation?  I've read the thread twice and am a little confused. I forget what reply but it said 50% poolish, so is that all the water & yeast and half the flour? I may need a little hand holding on this one ;D

Offline pythonic

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2014, 08:17:05 PM »
Sorry I know this is a old thread but Is there a final dough formulation?  I've read the thread twice and am a little confused. I forget what reply but it said 50% poolish, so is that all the water & yeast and half the flour? I may need a little hand holding on this one ;D

1st page at the top.
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Offline pizza is love

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2014, 08:35:05 PM »
It says nothing about the 16hr poolish though

Offline dwighttsharpe

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2014, 01:51:44 AM »
It says nothing about the 16hr poolish though

pil, poolish is technically equal weights of water and flour. Typically also, 1/3(33%) of the flour in a recipe is used for the poolish. He pretty much details the poolish version in post# 12(last paragraph):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15563.msg154203#msg154203

Hope that helps until Fazzari gets back.
Dwight

Offline pythonic

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2014, 02:29:11 PM »
It says nothing about the 16hr poolish though

Reply#12 on 1st page.  Follow poolish measurements correctly.  The equal parts ratio doesn't apply to this thread.

Nate
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Offline carl333

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2015, 05:12:15 PM »
After doing many months of experiments on a pizza I called the "Hybrid Reinhart", I thought I had done all I could to come up with a simple, delicious pizza...at least according to my likes.  So, my thought was to try something totally different.... I started with a 62% hydration dough, using the same percentages of yeast, oil, and honey as the "Hybrid Reinhart".

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Honey (2.%):
Total (168.5%):
Single Ball:
1235.62 g  |  43.58 oz | 2.72 lbs
766.09 g  |  27.02 oz | 1.69 lbs
6.18 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.05 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.43 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.49 tsp | 1.83 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.53 tsp | 1.18 tbsp
2082.02 g | 73.44 oz | 4.59 lbs | TF = N/A
347 g | 12.24 oz | 0.76 lbs

I added the water, yeast, salt, oil and honey to my Kitchen Aid bowl and whisked together.  I then added the flour (KABF) and used the dough hook in my hand to combine the ingredients very roughly.  Then I mixed the dough on stir for 4 minutes......let the dough rest 5 minutes....and then finished the mixing for 3 minutes on stir plus 1/2.  (This is all taken directly from the Reinhart instructions.)  Finished dough temp was about 82 degrees.  Immediately scaled, balled and refrigerated.  I've used the dough from day 2 to day 7, reballing the dough balls the day before usage, and taking doughs out to warm up 1 to 2 hours prior to baking. 

This dough is even better than the Hybrid Reinhart and it really shows in the texture.  While the pizza is crisp enough to stand out on it's own when holding an edge, the crust yields very easily to the tooth, with no chewiness, and is a delight to eat.
The following is a typical result:
John

To finish  with a dough temp of 82, can anyone suggest what the water temp should be just prior to mixing? How important is this?
Carl

Offline jsaras

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same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2015, 09:05:17 PM »
Lehmann had a simplified rule of thumb, 145-flour temp= water temp
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2015, 09:12:49 PM »
If you really want to get into it, you should figure out your mixer's friction factor.  There are a few threads here you can search, but here is a good link for you to read:

http://www.pmq.com/Spring-2003/In-Lehmanns-Terms/
Mitch

Offline carl333

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2015, 09:53:58 PM »
Lehmann had a simplified rule of thumb, 145-flour temp= water temp

lol. I have no idea what you formula means. Can you elaborate a bit more pls.
Carl

Offline carl333

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2015, 10:02:00 PM »
If you really want to get into it, you should figure out your mixer's friction factor.  There are a few threads here you can search, but here is a good link for you to read:

http://www.pmq.com/Spring-2003/In-Lehmanns-Terms/

Just trying to follow the recipe to the T with a finished dough at 82. I  finished with 72. Guess my water temp was a bit low. Trial and error. I didn't want to start too high thinking I might kill the IDY.
Carl


Offline mitchjg

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2015, 10:14:15 PM »
Sounds like you must have used very cold water............Do you know the water temperature you started with?
Mitch

Offline jsaras

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2015, 11:14:06 PM »
Here are my copied notes:
ACHIEVING 80 DEGREE DOUGH TEMP

For home use, where we are trying to get a finished dough temperature in the 80 degree range, subtract the flour temperature from the number 145 to get the desired water temperature to give you a finished dough within the range of 80 to 90F.
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Offline carl333

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2015, 07:51:56 AM »
Sounds like you must have used very cold water............Do you know the water temperature you started with?
I guess I should have measured. I took a couple of cups from the fridge, heated it in the MW for 30 seconds and it felt perhaps room temp or a bit higher. Should I have applied any compensation factors to accommodate for the low temp of 72 as opposed to the recipe at 82?
Carl

Offline carl333

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2015, 08:01:03 AM »
Here are my copied notes:
ACHIEVING 80 DEGREE DOUGH TEMP

For home use, where we are trying to get a finished dough temperature in the 80 degree range, subtract the flour temperature from the number 145 to get the desired water temperature to give you a finished dough within the range of 80 to 90F.

Thanks, that's interesting, I would have never considered flour temp as a variable. I was going to say that my dough temp was room temp at 70 but just realized that I used flour that was stored in the basement at perhaps 60. 145-60=85. My water temp must have been low. Is 80 as you mentioned a recommended finished dough temp for most recipes? 
Carl

Offline carl333

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2015, 08:09:44 AM »
If you really want to get into it, you should figure out your mixer's friction factor.  There are a few threads here you can search, but here is a good link for you to read:

http://www.pmq.com/Spring-2003/In-Lehmanns-Terms/
Very informative read and future tool to use. Another variable that can be controlled. tks
Carl

Offline Harborganics

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2015, 08:11:40 AM »
After doing many months of experiments on a pizza I called the "Hybrid Reinhart", I thought I had done all I could to come up with a simple, delicious pizza...at least according to my likes.  So, my thought was to try something totally different.... I started with a 62% hydration dough, using the same percentages of yeast, oil, and honey as the "Hybrid Reinhart".

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Honey (2.%):
Total (168.5%):
Single Ball:
1235.62 g  |  43.58 oz | 2.72 lbs
766.09 g  |  27.02 oz | 1.69 lbs
6.18 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.05 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.43 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.49 tsp | 1.83 tbsp
24.71 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.53 tsp | 1.18 tbsp
2082.02 g | 73.44 oz | 4.59 lbs | TF = N/A
347 g | 12.24 oz | 0.76 lbs

I added the water, yeast, salt, oil and honey to my Kitchen Aid bowl and whisked together.  I then added the flour (KABF) and used the dough hook in my hand to combine the ingredients very roughly.  Then I mixed the dough on stir for 4 minutes......let the dough rest 5 minutes....and then finished the mixing for 3 minutes on stir plus 1/2.  (This is all taken directly from the Reinhart instructions.)  Finished dough temp was about 82 degrees.  Immediately scaled, balled and refrigerated.  I've used the dough from day 2 to day 7, reballing the dough balls the day before usage, and taking doughs out to warm up 1 to 2 hours prior to baking. 

This dough is even better than the Hybrid Reinhart and it really shows in the texture.  While the pizza is crisp enough to stand out on it's own when holding an edge, the crust yields very easily to the tooth, with no chewiness, and is a delight to eat.
The following is a typical result:
John
Hi John, I am pretty new to the wfo business and I am struggling to find a dough that works for me. Same as you I have been experimenting with different methods, more oil, less oil, no oil etc..
It's a long journey for sure. My problem is being mobile with temperatures as low as 10-15 degr. Celsius and the dough balls just not wanting to stretch or roll out. I do ferment my dough balls for at least 24 hours and seen no way out other then to par bake them the day before we operate. Sometimes that goes really well but other times you pull out the bases from the mobile fridge and they got all dark spots on the base which I think must have to do with being in the fridge overnight..I still like to roll them out on the spot but with the lower temps I am just too scared they won't stretch..
I haven't tried your dough yet and will experiment with it this week to see how that behaves.
I guess ones you find a perfect combo it will all be different when we hit the 35-40 degr. Celsius again in summer. Oh the joys of the never ending journey in search of the perfect dough  :)
Also, it is mentioned just about everywhere cold fermenting in the fridge, does that mean at fridge temps? As my fridge is set on 4 degr. Celsius and a few had said that is too low..?
Love the great pics. I don't often pull them out the oven looking like that and I really want to.
Cheers,
Jack.
JACKO

Offline fazzari

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2015, 10:10:34 PM »
Hi John, I am pretty new to the wfo business and I am struggling to find a dough that works for me. Same as you I have been experimenting with different methods, more oil, less oil, no oil etc..
It's a long journey for sure. My problem is being mobile with temperatures as low as 10-15 degr. Celsius and the dough balls just not wanting to stretch or roll out. I do ferment my dough balls for at least 24 hours and seen no way out other then to par bake them the day before we operate. Sometimes that goes really well but other times you pull out the bases from the mobile fridge and they got all dark spots on the base which I think must have to do with being in the fridge overnight..I still like to roll them out on the spot but with the lower temps I am just too scared they won't stretch..
I haven't tried your dough yet and will experiment with it this week to see how that behaves.
I guess ones you find a perfect combo it will all be different when we hit the 35-40 degr. Celsius again in summer. Oh the joys of the never ending journey in search of the perfect dough  :)
Also, it is mentioned just about everywhere cold fermenting in the fridge, does that mean at fridge temps? As my fridge is set on 4 degr. Celsius and a few had said that is too low..?
Love the great pics. I don't often pull them out the oven looking like that and I really want to.
Cheers,
Jack.

Hi Jack
The recipe you are looking at is one I started working on in 2011.  It was at this time I came to realize that dough management was the single most important factor in creating great textured doughs (I had previously thought it was all in the hydration).  Since that time I have evolved my process a bit to a much more simple task, which create excellent pizza almost every time and it can be found here if you are interested at all:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36684.0
As for your question regarding cold fermentation, I ferment my doughs at 39 to 41 degrees F, and have no problems.  Although there are many who don't care for cold hydration, it's the only way I know of to develop flavor and most importantly to create the flexibility to bake your pizzas whenever you "care" to.  It's hard to understand from your post, if you are letting your doughs warm up before baking.
Lastly Jack, I've never had the thrill of baking in a wfo, and so I really don't know what temperatures you might be using.  My doughs are baked in either home ovens or decks, with temps ranging from about 550 to 600 degrees F.  If you are baking in a much higher temp oven you might consider looking for help from people like TXCRAIG1, who does a thorough job of describing his process here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20479.0.

I'd wish you good luck, but it's better to be good than lucky!!
John

Offline Harborganics

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Re: same methods....different hydration!!!
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2015, 03:16:47 AM »
Thank you John, I will give your dough a try this week. After reading for weeks on end on here I have seen so many different ways people make their dough it is confusing. I have scrapped all my previous methods and start with a clean slate, yours, and will try very hard to make that one work.
The Neapolitan ones look amazing but very tricky to create unless your in an environment where you can keep your temperatures at a constant level not to mention an oven that needs to be fired up all the time.At home we only have a wood fire slow combustion heater and no aircon to keep it at a certain temp. So temperatures go up and down. At the moment the temp inside the house would be around the 60-65 F  so on Friday night I will take my dough trays out the fridge this week to let them warm up and hope they behave on Saturday morning. I might still par bake  a few of them just in case they won't stretch out.
On Saturday I fire up my oven around 6:30 am and is usually ready to go around 9 am.
I did how ever heat up the floor to 600-660 F but this week I will try to hold it around the temps you are using and see how they come out.
Thank you for that info and I will let you know how I went this week, with some pics if I can.
Busy weekend ahead, for me anyway, market on Saturday morning where we usually sell about 25 pizzas, an afternoon planned at my permanent spot for the first time with bonfires and bring your own wine bubbles etc, should be interesting, might sell another 25 minimum and then Sunday an all dryer at a different market so aiming at 75 pizzas this weekend...might have to get a few more dough trays  :-D
Cheers, Jack.
Cheers, Jack.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 06:55:52 AM by Harborganics »
JACKO