bought some 00 flour... now i'm a little lost.

[ephman]

hi,

i bought a bag of gran muganaio farina tipo 00 flour.  i also have some fleischmann's active dry yeast.  i either make pizza's in my weber charcoal barbeque with the pizza stone in there, or my regular home oven that says it goes to 550.  i just learned the other day that all the ingredients for the dough are based on 100% of the weight of the flour.  now here's where i get a little lost.  what are the %'s for the rest of the ingredients?  i did a little searching on the net and can't seem to find the breakdown for something like a 12" pizza.

thanks for the help,
ephman

[Pete-zza]

ephman,

I am not familiar with the brand of 00 flour you purchased. Did you get it from an Italian specialty foods store? If you don't mind, can you tell us what the package of flour says in terms of protein (most likely stated in grams) and single-serving size (also most likely in grams)? I wouldn't be surprised if the packaging information is cryptic or incomplete. It's typical of imported Italian 00 flours. What I'm mainly looking for is the percent of protein since that will tell me whether the recipes on this site will be workable with that brand of 00 flour. But I'll take anything else you can give me.

Once I see the information, I think we should be able to find you a suitable recipe or tell you how you might modify one if necessary. I assume you do not have a starter, which some of our members use to naturally leaven their 00 doughs. I assume also that you don't have a preference between a same-day fermented dough or one that is retarded in the refrigerator. If you do have a preference, please let us know.

Peter

[ephman]

thank you again for your help.  yes i did get it from an italian specialty store called  BUON ITALIA here in nyc (i'm lucky about a 10 minute walk).  there was no info on the package about the gluten levels, however, there were two types of 00 flour there, one for pasta, and one for pizza.  i did a search online and also didn't get any results as well.  however there is something written "umidita max 15.5%", and i can't find a translation for that.   you're correct i don't have a starter.   i don't have a preference about whether the dough ferments overnight or in a few hours, however recently i've been overnighting it in the fridge which i've been liking.

be well,
ephman.

[Pete-zza]

ephram,

I am almost positive that the "umidita max. 15.5%" refers to the maximum moisture content of the flour. The level of moisture in flour is important mainly for the issue of storage. When the moisture level exceeds 15%, the shelf life of the flour is greatly reduced. In the U.S., generally the moisture will be 12-14%, and when the flour is stored under the proper conditions (relatively cool, dry and aerated) it should have good shelf life. All of the U.S. flours whose specs I have seen have a moisture content of around 14%. Since you appear to have only a small bag of the flour, storage shouldn't be a problem.

Maybe one of our fellow members who is an Italian national or is familiar with your brand of 00 flour can tell us how suitable it is for the 00 recipes at this site. Since you already indicated that yours is for pizza dough, I will assume that is so. It would be nice, however, to have more information on the flour to have a better idea as to what it can do.

In the meantime, my best suggestion is that you pick a 00 dough recipe and go with it. Since you have indicated that you have experimented with retarded doughs, I would suggest that you look at the "giotto" 00 dough recipe at the A16 thread, at Reply #133, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.120.html. To make your life a bit easier in case you decide to try out the recipe and don’t have a good digital scale, the 7.62 ounces of flour in the recipe is about 1 1/2 c. plus 3 tablespoons and the 4.36 ounces of water is 1/2 cup. I used metal measuring cups and spoons for the flour measurements and a glass Pyrex measuring cup for the water (I noted the marking at eye level). I would just substitute your 00 flour for the Caputo 00 flour. The size of the pizza using the abovementioned recipe is 13 inches. If you can only handle a 12-inch size, I can downsize the recipe for you if you need help with that.

If you would like to get an education on 00 flours, you might want to read the entire A16 thread. It’s a long thread, but if you are serious about learning about 00 flours and how best to use them, reading the thread will be very helpful.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

Is that the Gran Mugnaio series of "Spadoni"? (Spadoni should be a white writing in a red enclosure).

[ephman]

yes it is Spadoni.

i've skimmed through that posting so i guess now i'll read it through and give it a shot for tomorrow.  thank you all for your help.

be well,
ephman

[Pete-zza]

ephman,

Can you tell me if your 00 flour is among the ones shown at this webpage: http://www.molinospadoni.it/prodottid/p_domest.asp?

Peter

[ephman]

the flour i have is the middle white bag on the top row in the middle.

gosh i was making pizza for a while without ever coming to this site, i'm dizzy with reading all these things i've been missing out on.  this is such a wonderful forum, very helpful and friendly, reminds me of some of the old school linux forums i help people on.  thanks for making it.

ephman

[giotto]

ephman:

You mentioned "tipo 00", which I only see in the "Dolci" brown bag in the site that Pete-zza suggests.  My understanding is that Dolci means "sweet" in Italian, which seems to suggest flour for lighter weight purposes, maybe like our cake flour.  Be interesting to see which bag it really is according to the site that Pete-zza mentions above.  Pizzanapoletana can help us translate its strength for pizza once you identify it on the site. 

To ensure that you don't run into unnecessary shortcommings with recipes, I'd recommend the recipe resized to a 13" pizza by Pete-zza (shown below), which also includes the advantages with dry dairy whey to provide better color with our lower temp ovens.   The only modification that I'd recommend is to increase the dairy whey to 2 tsp.  You can find this at places like Whole Foods by Bob Red Mills or maybe in the bins. 

The W factor (strength) of Caputo is undoubtedly higher than your flour, and therefore if you find your result to be too soft, you may want to lessen or eliminate the oil in future batches (oils contain fats, which soften the dough).  Two days in the refrigerator for the dough will offset the need for a starter or preferment.  I like to keep it in the refrigerator for 3 - 5 days to increase the sour experience of the entire dough as I'm used to in San Francisco.  Be sure to keep the yeast to the recommended small amount:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13907.html#msg13907

[ephman]

let me get this right i'm confused.  i don't need any yeast or starter if i keep the dough in the fridge for a couple days?  i'll do that if i don't need to use yeast or starter. 

100% i have "tipo 00", take another look the bag i have is the middle white bag with the pizza man on it.

thanks,
ephman

[giotto]

GOT IT.  Without knowing a lot of Italian, I see from the writing that it is for home usage similar to what professionals use for pizza. That's a good thing.

YES, you need yeast as shown in the recipe.  You let any dough sit over time to increase the acids that yield more taste (basically the way we get sour bread).  By placing it in the refrigerator, you provide something called delayed fermentation, which slows down the yeast activity due to colder temperatures, enabling more of the natural sugar for your palette that is extracted from the enzymes.  The yeast is needed because it will consume the sugar and form carbon dioxide, which gives the spring or growth to the dough. 

If you want, just put it in the fridge overnight or for at least 8 hours, since much of the sugar is released in 8 hours.  In general, the longer it sits, the more you yield bacterial growth for taste, while the colder temps give you more natural sugar.  You really don't need much yeast though, and the less you use, the less the sugar gets eaten.  Salt is also used to curb the appetite of yeast.  It may sound like a chem project, but you just got it in a snapshot and you'll be in a better position than most on why and how you can get better taste. 

Some use a starter so they can yield the advantages of time, without employing delayed fermentation (the starter has already been sitting around over time).  Also, they can use different starters to yield different tastes.  BUT if you have a good recipe and a good flour, you can yield great results with fermentation in the refrigerator.  For now, best to focus on the A16 recipe I provided above.  You'll see that Pete-zza was very happy with his results.

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

If you go back to this link, http://www.molinospadoni.it/prodotti_1.html?, it's the third bag from the left on the top row--the bag with a person on it.

I noticed that there is a professionals section identified on the home page, in which the W numbers are given for the different professional-grade flours, but I could find nothing comparable on the flour that ephman has. If anyone of our members knows about the flour, it may well be pizzanapoletana (Marco). I did a broader search on the flour that ephman has but turned up nothing beyond what has been reported.

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

Yep, as indicated in my message above, the main thing is that this vendor purports that its gluten is for pizza at home.  You can see Spanish similarities in description (la, casa, una), as well as English similarities (utilizando, preparare and glutine).

TITLE in English is "Flour 00 for pizza".  Description is blurred; but basically says "a flour from true professionals for preparing pizza at home utilizing yeast (levita de bierre).  It goes on to suggest that it is "rich in gluten." 

I've kept in mind that just as some All-Purpose flours in US are purported to be higher in protein and appropriate for pizza with their wheat (e.g., Bob's Red Mill), I don't suspect others in Italy to have quite the strength or same construction of Caputo.  Considering our desire to soften Caputo, lower gluten is not necessarily a bad thing.  I tried a 0 Italian flour represented for pizza that was comparable to a higher protein All-purpose... it's texture was okay.  I never messed with it (or any flour) quite like I have Caputo to get it right though. 

As to how rich this flour is in gluten, other differences from Caputo, or perception of this vendor, I was hoping earlier as well that pizzanapoletana might have a sense of what one can actually expect once the flour was identified, since he showed recognition of the vendor.

[pftaylor]

giotto,
A few posts back you mentioned "Two days in the refrigerator for the dough will offset the need for a starter or preferment."

On one level I can understand the intent of your point.  I can partially agree but my experience with preferments indicate there is a lot more going on than just flavor enhancing. A couple of days in the fridge will add some flavor to commercial yeast based doughs. However, commercial yeast based doughs enhanced with a preferment and placed in a fridge for a couple of days will, in my experience, have far greater flavor. It is like the difference between a donkey racing a throughbred. It will never catch up no matter how hard you try.

I have also noticed that my preferment enhanced doughs tend to perform much better (across the board) than simple commercial yeasted doughs. I don't know why but my experience has proven this point to me. The char is better, the crust is more competent overall, the spring is better and the flavor difference isn't even worth talking about. I have not experienced, for some reason, the same overall impact on pure prefermented doughs without the addition of a little bit of commercial yeast. It seems the best outcome of result is when I combine a pinch of commercial yeast with a few tablespoons of preferment. It truly takes my home made efforts to another level.

At the end of the day, use of a preferment seems to have a very positive impact. The only downside I can tell is the effort required to refresh it and keep it from being contaminated. A very small price to pay in my opinion to enjoy the benefits I have witnessed. I would be willing to bet that if you could culture some raw dough from A16, use it in conjunction with your current recipe, you would then have a product to die for.

[pizzanapoletana]

"Gran Mugnaio" is a line for home bakers that include various 00 flours, such as cake, pasta e pizza flours.

The pizza type is a stronger flour which was studied for pizza making at home. It is not comparable to a caputo (as it has a higher amylasse activity) and it is studied for 3-4 hours rises at room temperature.

It is however much better then normal 00 flours.

[Pete-zza]

Marco,

I couldn't find any specifications for the Spadoni Gran Mugnaio. I did find the specifications for the professional pizza flours at http://www.molinospadoni.it/prodottip/prodottip_pizza.asp. If what ephman has is for 3-4 hours, is it close to one one the flours shown at the above link? And, if so, which one? It would also seem that the W rating for the 00 flour that ephman has would be fairly low--maybe around 200? Would it be possible to increase that number by adding a bit of bread flour, and could diastatic barley malt be added to increase the amylase activity?

Peter

[giotto]

I don't need A16's dough.  That would be like giving me a leather basketball in an outside court.  I'll take their oven though... then I'd probably get complaints that my pizza is suddenly burnt.  I prefer a dough like Il Fornaio's in my oven when I don't have time to make it myself.  People are often led astray with preferments and high gluten flour, without realizing how much great stuff is actually out there that uses neither, including local San Francisco breads and crusts that vary immensely.   I can't stand sour pizza crusts that are developed with aged starters in this area.  In general, I don't believe there is any silver bullet way of doing things across the board-- too many regional variations.

For those who want a more intense taste, starters have the advantage of being fed fresh flour constantly, with time as a key factor-- where longer times create a more intense flavor.  You can go 2 weeks or more with a starter (some have gone over a 100 years), while only 3 - 5 days with a dough.  Location is also vital to the taste that is developed over time.  If someone in Italy is developing a dough via a wild yeast, I'm not likely to get that taste here.  Heck, people suggest the water makes a difference in NY.

The bottom line is that when I let the mother starter go beyond the times that I can get with delayed fermentation, the dough gets too sour for my crust here in the San Francisco area.  This is similar to Reinhart's warnings, who used to create his breads here as well, when letting starters get too sour for pizza crust.

Delayed fermentation of 3 - 5 days does the job in this area for me.  Its just the perfect amount of modification for me.  I noticed that Christophe at A16 once suggested that he was happy to see 3 days over 2 as well.  Because the permutations are remarkable, I strive for a flour that can reach outstanding taste and texture with as little modification as possible in my environment with the tools that I have available to me. 

[pizzanapoletana]

Marco,

I couldn't find any specifications for the Spadoni Gran Mugnaio. I did find the specifications for the professional pizza flours at http://www.molinospadoni.it/pizzeria_farine.html. If what ephman has is for 3-4 hours, is it close to one one the flours shown at the above link? And, if so, which one? It would also seem that the W rating for the 00 flour that ephman has would be fairly low--maybe around 200? Would it be possible to increase that number by adding a bit of bread flour, and could diastatic barley malt be added to increase the amylase activity?

Peter

Peter

I meant that the Spadoni has a higher amylasse activity then the Caputo (Caputo's is very low). The flour should have a W at around 220, but it is studied for home baking (low baking temperature and short rising time), and it is therefore completely different from the professional products of the same "molino".

If you consider that all -purpose 00 flour (the one that say's  "per pasta, pizza e dolci") have a W of 160-180, the 220 is quite stronger. You could increase the strenght by adding a bit of bread flour, but I do not see the point because that flour should be already studied for home pizza making. As said above, there is no need of malt.

Ciao

[giotto]

pizzanapoletana:

What are they enhancing the flour with to get a shorter rise time?