Author Topic: Is there somewhere I can get basic % ranges for neapolitan dough?  (Read 3971 times)

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Offline youonlylivetwice

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hydration, salt, and yeast (using ADY)?

I would be using the AP + cake flour mix that is sometimes mentioned.   thank you!!

(I know this is buried in posts somewhere, but a pinned message with the most basic starting info for each pizza type would be great!)


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is there somewhere I can get basic % ranges for neapolitan dough?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2005, 12:29:00 PM »
youonlylivetwice,

I don't know if you have a specific recipe in mind that uses both all-purpose flour and cake flour to simulate 00 flour, but I am not aware of any such recipe that is recited with baker's percents. Every recipe of that nature that I am aware of recites ingredients by volume measurements and not weight measurements. Trying to convert the volume measurements to weight measurements is somewhat of a crapshoot, and a heavy hand or a light hand when weighing the flour and water can give you wide variations in baker's percents. You also can't just take the baker's percents of a Neapolitan-style dough recipe using 00 flour. The cake flour is closer to 00 flour than all-purpose flour, but both flours have different hydration characteristics than 00 flour.

To maybe get you going in the right direction, I took a Pamela Sheldon Johns A-P/cake flour dough recipe that she submitted to a magazine Cuisineathome and tried to convert the ingredients specified in volumes to weights. (Ms. Johns wrote a book on Neapolitan pizzas.) The way I handled the flours was to take a one-cup metal measuring cup and to dip it into the flour bags (A-P and cake), level off the top, and then weigh the flours on my kitchen scale. I used the KA Queen Guinevere cake flour for conversion purposes since that is the only cake flour I have on hand. The standard supermarket cake flours will also work. For the water conversion, I poured water into a glass Pyrex 2-cup measuring cup up to the 1 1/2 cup marking (viewed at eye level), and then weighed the water. The final recipe I ended up with, along with baker's percents, is set forth below. Even if you choose to use a different recipe, the baker's percents might serve as useful guides for your recipe.

100%, All-purpose flour, 14.25 oz. (3 c.), plus KA Queen Guinevere cake flour. 4.90 oz. (1 c.)
62.7%, Warm water (around 105-115 degrees F), 12.00 oz. (1 1/2 c.)
0.56%, ADY, 0.106 oz. (1 t.)
2.4%, Sea salt, 0.45 oz. (2 t.)
Total flour weight (on which hydration % is determined = 14.25 oz. + 4.9 oz. = 19.15 oz.
Total dough ball weight = about 31.71 oz.

The above recipe is enough to make 4 dough balls, each weighing around 8 oz., or enough to make four 10-inch (roughly) pizzas. The recipe is intended for making a same-day. room-temperature fermented dough, with two rises totalling 6-8 hours (4 hours plus 2-4 hours). The times might need adjustment depending on the temperature of the room in which the dough rises. For added tenderness, a small amount of olive oil might also be added (about 2 t.). Since the crust will be quite light in color, a small amount of dried dairy whey (around 2 t.) might also be added to improve coloration. The oil and dairy whey are optional.

If you have some other recipe in mind that you would like me to take a look at and provide comments, let me know.

Peter

Offline youonlylivetwice

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Re: Is there somewhere I can get basic % ranges for neapolitan dough?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2005, 01:18:29 PM »
Thanks so much Peter,
I am light years behind what most of you folks do on this website; I am really just trying to find my way and test new approaches to see what my personal favorite is.  It was the Sheldon-Johns recipe I was referring to, but as you say regarding volume vs weight, I had no idea where the hydration should end up.  I figured why go through a series of 10 tests, probably unable to hold all-other-things constant anyway, when I could possibly ask what I should use as a starting point.   I tried her recipe a couple years ago using volume measures with ok results, but I have learned a fair amount and wanted to revisit it using weight measures.   Would there be a benefit in using her recipe but a longer, cold rise?  I would think so, but I don't understand the chemistry.   

Thanks as always for the help you provide!!

It KILLS me that I still can't get a crust and sauce quite like any number of pizzerias around me cranks out.  Yesterday someone left some leftover pizza in the kitchen at my job, and it, crust and sauce, was better than what I am making.... ugh!!! 




Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is there somewhere I can get basic % ranges for neapolitan dough?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2005, 02:05:57 PM »
youonlylivetwice,

You should be OK if you want to refrigerate the dough. At the macro level, the chemistry and physics is quite simple. Refrigeration simply slows the processes down but at the same time allows certain components to develop that ultimately contribute to the flavor of the crust. The Johns recipe I gave you includes no sugar, so if you decide to refrigerate the dough you perhaps don't want to go more than 24-48 hours before using it. You can go straight to the refrigerator once the dough is finished or, if you'd like, you can let the dough rest at room temperature for about 15-minutes before refrigerating. You can also punch down the dough while it is in the refrigerator, maybe once a day. Just be sure to let the dough come up to room temperature for about an hour or two before shaping.

If you decide to try the Johns recipe, I don't see any need for the long knead times (10 and 20 minutes) typically caller for in most of her "clone" recipes. The a-p and cake flour blends (or a-p and pastry flour blends) are not the same as 00 flours and don't need long knead times (even the true 00 flour doughs don't need such long knead times). I would dissolve the salt in the water (warm), add the ADY (separately proofed in a small amount of the total water), gradually add and stir in the flour, and knead for about 8 minutes, or until the dough is smooth and soft and elastic, and a bit tacky. You may have to make adjustments to flour and/or water to get to the desired stage, but if you find that the adjustments are more than minor (say, more than a tablespoon of flour or water), you may want to note the extent of the changes so that they can be incorporated into the recipe for future use (and readjustment of baker's percents).

Please let us know about the results you achieve if you proceed with the recipe. Others may benefit from your work. And It may give us a better handle on baker's percents for clone recipes like the Johns recipe.

I advise you to just stay the course with your pizza making. Trt to find proven recipes and practice with them until you master the basic principles. From that point on, all pizza making will be simpler.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 02:09:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Is there somewhere I can get basic % ranges for neapolitan dough?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 08:26:19 AM »
Peter,
Digging deep into the forum again. I am Firing the WFO today so I made the Rienhart Napoletana 100% caputo dough (pg 107) Sat Morning. for a nice 2 full day ferment. This morning my wife invited the neighbors so I am doing (my first) all day 6-8 hr room temp rise with your reply #1 you shared here from Pamela Sheldon. I will post results should be a good comparison of Caputo Vs KAAP in a wood fired oven at 800 degrees.
Thanks John

yes FIRE!! >:D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 08:29:50 AM by JConk007 »
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