Author Topic: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"  (Read 3233 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 09:14:13 PM »
Mike,

I converted Bruno's recipe to baker's percent format at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12883.msg125253/topicseen.html#msg125253, from which you will see that there are a lot of differences from Luigi's dough, although many of the processing techniques are similar.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 09:26:07 PM »
Mike,

I converted Bruno's recipe to baker's percent format at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12883.msg125253/topicseen.html#msg125253, from which you will see that there are a lot of differences from Luigi's dough, although many of the processing techniques are similar.

Peter


Peter,

That's what I actually meant. The techniques. I didn't know you converted the recipe already to a Baker's percent format.

I just did the same and that's what I came up with:

Flour (100%):
Water (50.07%):
CY (0.25%):
Salt (1.25%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.25%):
Eggs, large (6.7%):
Total (162.52%):
Single Ball:
697.76 g  |  24.61 oz | 1.54 lbs
349.37 g  |  12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs
1.74 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs |
8.72 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
20.93 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.65 tsp | 1.55 tbsp
8.72 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.19 tsp | 0.73 tbsp
46.75 g | 1.65 oz | 0.1 lbs | 9.23 tsp | 3.08 tbsp
1134 g | 40 oz | 2.5 lbs | TF = N/A
567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs

Compared to yours, I think the only amount that's different are the eggs. How did you calculate the eggs?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:29:12 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 09:34:16 PM »
Compared to yours, I think the only amount that's different are the eggs. How did you calculate the eggs?


Mike,

I used the data from http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2. Six eggs at 50 grams each.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:36:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 09:40:55 PM »
Mike,

I used the data from http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2. Six eggs at 50 grams each.

Peter


Ah. I used this one here, where it says under the part "Egg Size" that large eggs can run anywhere from 63 grams to 73 grams in weight and I chose the middle and used 68 grams:

http://www.helpwithcooking.com/egg-guide/guide-to-eggs.html

Quote
Egg size

Not all hens lay eggs of the same size. The size of an egg depends on several factors, for example the breed of the hen, the weight of the hen, the hen's age, what the hen was fed on and the environment in which the hen was brought up.

Although there are quite a number of different sized eggs, the sizes that you will see on your supermarket shelves will be medium, large and extra large.

The majority of cooking recipes will specify for large eggs however, you could use the equivalent in medium or extra large eggs.

    1 large egg is the equivalent of 1 medium egg or 1 extra large egg.
    2 large eggs is the equivalent of 2 medium eggs or 2 extra large eggs.
    3 large eggs is the equivalent of 4 medium eggs or 3 extra large eggs.
    4 large eggs is the equivalent of 5 medium eggs or 4 extra large eggs.
    5 large eggs is the equivalent of 6 medium eggs or 5 extra large eggs.

Eggs are sized on their weight. Therefore, medium eggs weigh between 53 - 63g, large eggs weigh between 63 - 73g and extra large eggs weigh more than 73g.


Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline scott123

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 11:04:56 PM »
But far be it for me to tell an Italian guy from NYC with the name of Bruno that he is using a thickness factor that is too high, and that he shouldn’t use eggs and he shouldn’t call his pizza a New York style.

I have no problem telling Bruno to go suck an egg (he's got plenty).  When you've got hundreds of pizzerias in the NY metro area, you're bound to run into at least a few first generation Italian Americans who have absolutely no idea what pizza should be. He competes, from what I can tell, for speed.  The fastest pizza may not necessarily be the best.

I'm sure he either descends from an area in Italy where eggs are added to pizza dough, or maybe it's something that one of his relatives does/did. Italian grandmothers can be very persuasive when it comes to food preparation  :)  It may actually make a decent tasting pie.  But to call an egg based pizza New York style- no way.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 01:53:57 PM »
When you've got hundreds of pizzerias in the NY metro area, you're bound to run into at least a few first generation Italian Americans who have absolutely no idea what pizza should be.

scott123,

When you have hundreds of people all trying to make NY street style pizzas, there will always be outliers who do not know what they are doing or are relying on former owners' recipes or old family recipes or tradition. I agree with you that eggs may not be part of the authentic NY style but how do you feel about honey, or barley malt (dry or syrup form) or molasses?

Peter

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 02:34:25 PM »
Scott123 - No doubt Joes sells a lot of slices, and they're top notch per your opinion (and many others).  Can you tell a huge difference in taste between the slices they sell and the whole pies?  I'm asking, as the slices are assumingly baked twice by one of two methods below, whereas the whole pies are baked once.

1.Sauced pie is parbaked, then slices are topped and reheated.
2. Pie is fully topped and baked, then slice reheated

Whether you can taste a difference or not do you think the guys making a lot slices alter their recipe so the slice can handle being baked twice?  Maybe increased hydration?

Reinhart is bad influence? :o

Danes Dad

Offline gabaghool

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 03:02:11 PM »
Again, this is from a culinary standpoint, MORE than a pizzamaking standpoint.

In Italy, from my experience, as well as authors of classic cookbooks, like Waverly Root, the one constant about Italian recipes and tradition IS there are no constants.  That is why I chuckle when I read comments about how in Italy, EVERYONE does it THIS way or THAT way.  That may be true, AT MOST, town to town.  BUT, the recipes in Italy, for classic dishes AS WELL AS PIZZA, vary DRASTICALLY, in some cases EVEN in neighboring towns.  What is a set recipe for say Pasta Amatricana in town A, will be done DIFFERENTLY in town B, right next door. I mean, I read a thread where EVEN THE OVENS must be a certain way to be called Pizza Napoletano.  Do you know how many THOUSANDS of different styles of ovens are in use in Naples??  Not by commercial places, but by naples natives themselves.  Am I gonna tell them that their pizza isn't NEO because their dome heights are 3 inches to high??

In France, recipes ARE MUCH MORE STANDARD....its simply not so in Italy.  Since the northeast has so many Sicilians, we can take a look at Sfincione.  I know about a dozen Sicilians who married into my mainland italian family.  And while you would SWEAR sfincione is finished with breadcrumbs, onions and cheese......it simply isn't so.  I've talked to many sicilian "nonnas" who swear that onions, or crushed tomatoes, or even breadcrumbs HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING ON this sicilian classic.  And, of course, THEIR recipe is the right one.  Others disagree...and you know, they are ALL delicious.  Another example......MOST, but not all immigrant italians use anchovies in ANY CACCIATORE recipe...and are disgusted by any bell pepper put into the mix.....and so it goes.

But, I admit, I have NEVER heard of egg being put into a pizza dough recipe....though I have had pizza made with a left over dough that had egg called for in  the  recipe.  Usually around easter time, using dough made for easter breads.  I have to agree with Scott, though...egg in NY style dough IS still pretty weird. Its simply a costly item that adds nothing, I believe, to a pizza dough. But, I know of several places that use oil or sugar.....BOTH which are argued about as being necessary in a dough to be considerd a NY style dough.

I guess this all has to do with why I wince all ALMOST ALL ABSOLUTES when it comes to ANY Italian cooking.  And the variance in Italian cooking (pizza included) is amplified when it is brought to another country (the usa) and the immigrant italians hustle to find LOCAL SUBSTITUTIONS for impossible to find original ingredients.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 03:11:48 PM »
Scott123 - No doubt Joes sells a lot of slices, and they're top notch per your opinion (and many others).  Can you tell a huge difference in taste between the slices they sell and the whole pies?  I'm asking, as the slices are assumingly baked twice by one of two methods below, whereas the whole pies are baked once.

1.Sauced pie is parbaked, then slices are topped and reheated.
2. Pie is fully topped and baked, then slice reheated

Whether you can taste a difference or not do you think the guys making a lot slices alter their recipe so the slice can handle being baked twice?  Maybe increased hydration?

Reinhart is bad influence? :o

Danes Dad
Now, I don't know about places that STRICTLY MAKE SLICES ONLY....but in a pizza place that sells slices, there is no difference in the dough.  In fact, certain people prefer the twice baked slices.  In reheated correctly, IMO, and not simply warmed through, the top caramalizes more, and the bottoms darken and crisp up more (though I know of a few places that use screens). This makes for a crunchy slice, which I dig big time.  I don't know if I would like the whole pie like that, but a big quarter slice of an 18" pie is perfect for me.  I drizzle it with good evoo, a bit more romano...Im good to go.

Offline scott123

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 04:31:10 PM »
scott123,

When you have hundreds of people all trying to make NY street style pizzas, there will always be outliers who do not know what they are doing or are relying on former owners' recipes or old family recipes or tradition. I agree with you that eggs may not be part of the authentic NY style but how do you feel about honey, or barley malt (dry or syrup form) or molasses?

Peter

Peter, I have a tremendously difficult time defining certain aspects of NY style pizza. There will always be outliers with this kind of thing, but, for the most part, the bulk of NY pizzeria owners, both present and in the last quarter century, stick to very similar techniques.  One could, in theory, pretty easily come up with a VPN type of document that defines NY style, based upon how the majority of pizzerias are/were making it. It wouldn't be quite as cut and dry as Neapolitan, but, it could still be done. In other words, I could just say, "Here's what the bulk of NY pizzerias do.  Do what they do and that's NY style pizza." Piece of cake. Unfortunately, improvements have surfaced in recent years, most notably, multi day cold fermentation.  Multi day cold fermentation may have been practiced by one or two pizzerias historically, but I'm certain, because of the walk-in space required, it wasn't a common practice, and thus not part of the NY pizzamaking canon.

The evidence is overwhelming that multi day cold fermentation produces superior pizza- pizza with a more flavorful crust that doesn't sit like a lead weight in the gut.  The process draws out inherent flavors in the wheat and additional sugars, so you're, to an extent, magnifying what's already there. If fed a same day slice and a two day slice, side by side, the average guy on the street would prefer the two day, but, most importantly, he wouldn't necessarily see a drastic difference.  It's an improvement without inherently altering the original product.  For instance, many people like sourdough bread and feel that starter improves pizza dough, but the end product of that process is discernibly quite different. I'm okay with variations as long as there's sufficient evidence to prove that they produce a better product and as long as they don't change the intrinsic nature of the style.

So, I'm working with an 'evolved' definition of the style- which complicates things a bit.  It's something that I struggle with constantly, because once you start incorporating techniques that the majority of NY pizzerias aren't using, you're opening the door to other possible 'improvements' and a greater degree of subjectivity- and the last thing NY style pizza needs, as it's global journey exposes it to misinformation and adulteration, is subjectivity.

As to your original question, if I was looking at your ingredients from a strictly traditional mindset, my answer would be "no, none of these ingredients belong," but if I applied the 'improved, but not drastically altered' mindset that I'm using with cold fermentation, I might be open to barley malt.  Maybe.  Molasses, because of the noticeable change in color and flavor is out of the question. Honey is, imo, too foreign of a flavor as well.  Barley malt is a bit different because, due to the barley flour already present in the flour, you're not adding an alien flavor. Sure, diastatic malt isn't going to be as flavorful as non-diastatic, but the profile should be close.  In that sense, like cold fermentation, you're bolstering a note that's already there.  If one were to use malt syrup or powder they'd need to make certain that the roast would be very light so as to not alter the color of the crumb.

In other words, 'no' to honey and molasses, and a qualified 'yes' to light barley malt powder/syrup.