Author Topic: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"  (Read 3314 times)

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Offline Danes Dad

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Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« on: September 24, 2011, 04:45:49 PM »
When looking at the picture of a new york slice at reply #12 from the attached thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13442.0.html) it seems the slice is very different than the results people are getting from following either the Lehmann formula for the Reinhart formula.  As such, if the picture is definately representative of new york pizza should the New York Style be split into "Elite New York" (which seems most users are producing) and "New York Slice"?

I have never had a New York slice or even been to New York for that matter, but if the picture from the above post is representative than it seems to be something different than is being produced by users of this board.  Even taking into account that most of us (except Norma) are unable to bake 18" and 20" pies due to oven limitation, the 16" and 12" pies being produced by users are different quite a bit different that the slice mentioned above.

I am of course asking this question very naively.

Is the Rheinhart and Lehmann recipe more applicable for an Elite style or a New York Slice style?  If they can be used for both styles, it is interesting that most users go for the  "Elite" style.

I think the recent pizzas made by Norma and John using the Reinhart recipe (and anything Pete-zza makes) are unbelievable and I would much rather try to replicate their results than replicate the pizza slice provided as a sample of a New York slice (just my 2 cents).  Of course from the slice picture I have no idea of the taste, which could be remarkable.


Offline norma427

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2011, 05:11:27 PM »
When looking at the picture of a new york slice at reply #12 from the attached thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13442.0.html) it seems the slice is very different than the results people are getting from following either the Lehmann formula for the Reinhart formula.  As such, if the picture is definately representative of new york pizza should the New York Style be split into "Elite New York" (which seems most users are producing) and "New York Slice"?

I have never had a New York slice or even been to New York for that matter, but if the picture from the above post is representative than it seems to be something different than is being produced by users of this board.  Even taking into account that most of us (except Norma) are unable to bake 18" and 20" pies due to oven limitation, the 16" and 12" pies being produced by users are different quite a bit different that the slice mentioned above.

I am of course asking this question very naively.

Is the Rheinhart and Lehmann recipe more applicable for an Elite style or a New York Slice style?  If they can be used for both styles, it is interesting that most users go for the  "Elite" style.

I think the recent pizzas made by Norma and John using the Reinhart recipe (and anything Pete-zza makes) are unbelievable and I would much rather try to replicate their results than replicate the pizza slice provided as a sample of a New York slice (just my 2 cents).  Of course from the slice picture I have no idea of the taste, which could be remarkable.

Danes Dad,

Are you new to making pizza, or have you made pizzas before?

It can be very confusing if you are new to making pizza what a NY style dough is.  You might want to look at the thread at Reply 1  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.msg110289.html#msg110289  what Non-Lehmann NY style dough formulations look like.

If you want to start with regular NY style Lehmann pies, you might want to look at Pete-zza’s Roadmap to the Lehmann style pizza at.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193

To answer your question whether the Reinhart dough or the Lehmann dough are NY elite style pizzas, I would answer no.  The Reinhart doughs are more like an American style dough, at least in my opinion.  In my opinion the Lehmann dough is more of a NY style dough for pizza, although it also can have many variations.

If you are just beginning to make pizza a good place to start, if you are interested is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html  and especially starting at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563
and read though that thread.  There are many explanations by Peter, how to go about making a Lehmann dough on that thread.

If you aren’t used to using higher hydrations like the Reinhart doughs, in my opinion that would be a hard dough for you to start with.

Norma
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Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2011, 05:32:31 PM »
Thanks Norma,

Great information.  Confusing, yes.  Many variations, yes.

I guess my main question is, "Does that photo represent a typical New York Slice?"

I would love to see some more photos of pizza slices from New York pizzerias specializing in slices.

Thanks for your help.

Offline norma427

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2011, 05:52:18 PM »
Thanks Norma,

Great information.  Confusing, yes.  Many variations, yes.

I guess my main question is, "Does that photo represent a typical New York Slice?"

I would love to see some more photos of pizza slices from New York pizzerias specializing in slices.

Thanks for your help.

Danes Dad,
 
I was also quite confused for awhile what real NY style pizzas were too.  Sometimes I still am confused, between where the NY style changes to the elite style or American style pizzas.  :-D


If you want to see what Peter explained to me about the Reinhart dough and what he thought, his answer is at Reply 100 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.msg143267.html#msg143267

If you want to see what NY style pizza looks like you can just search Google images, something like I did in this search. http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1426&bih=909&q=NY+style+pizzas&gbv=2&oq=NY+style+pizzas&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5160l9420l0l9994l15l15l0l9l9l0l252l1017l0.5.1l6l0

This is where Google images is. http://images.google.com/

Norma
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 05:53:53 PM by norma427 »
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 09:04:40 AM »
I guess my main question is, "Does that photo represent a typical New York Slice?"

Hi DD,
Here’s my 2 cents.  Yes, the photo you referenced in reply 12 of the link looks like an average NY Street Slice, and Norma’s link to the google search returned many good examples as well. As you suggested in your first post, there are 2 main types of NY Pizza – NY Elite and NY Street pizza.  Both are represented in the “New York Style” board. As you mentioned, one of the difficulties in making an accurate reproduction of a NY Street pizza is the 18’’ size, though many people make excellent scaled down versions, and a few have made 18” as well. Bill (Chickenparm) has made terrific looking NY Street pizzas, including the 18” pizzas linked below.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13648.0.html

I think we all agree that there are many delicious types of pizza, and there is nothing wrong with working to achieve something that does not precisely resemble a NY Street pizza. One of the great things about making pizza is that we can tailor it to our preferences.

I can understand that picture you referenced may not scream flavor to someone who hasn’t experienced a NY Street slice, though you really can’t judge it until you taste it. It is simply delicious.

Matt
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 09:22:07 AM by hammettjr »

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 11:54:17 AM »
Danes Dad,

To add to what the others have said, the "elite" pizza operators were mostly the ones who used very high temperature coal ovens. Some of the names that you might see are Patsy's, Totonno's, John's, Lombardi's and Grimaldi's. DiFara's is usually lumped in with the others even though Dom DeMarco uses an old souped up Bakers Pride gas deck oven and he uses a blend of high-gluten flour and 00 flour. On the New Haven side, two of the names you hear the most about on the elite side are Pepe's and Sally's. The elite style pizzas came in different sizes, up to 18", and the crusts were very thin and were made from only flour, water, salt and yeast. No oil and no sugar. You won't find much in the way of dough formulations on the forum for the elite style since the members do not have coal ovens to properly emulate the elite style. However, there have been a few members, and a few NY pizzerias, that have been able to make credible wood fired oven versions of the elite style.

What changed the direction of the NY style was the invention and widespread adoption of the deck oven. They ran at lower temperatures than the coal fired ovens and that made it possible to add oil and some sugar to the doughs. There are literally thousands of pizzerias that now use deck ovens to make what some refer to as the NY "street" style. The pizzas can come in many different sizes, including sizes in excess of 20". And they can be thin or on the relatively thick side (but not thick like the American style). While the standard unmodified home oven is not a match for commercial deck ovens, with proper stone selection one has a chance of getting something that is a reasonable facsimile of the NY street style. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is typical of the NY steet style. All of the elite names mentioned above are still cranking out their elite pizzas, and have been growing through expansion, but they are far outnumbered by the pizza operators who specialize in the NY street style.

I always thought that the so-called Reinhart NY style recipes were misnamed, and were more like the American style with fairly high levels of sugar and oil, and with thicker crusts than the typical NY style. Also, the typical NY style pizza operator would not use hydration values that can get over 70%. The Reinhart recipes are more for artisan style pizzas and mainly for home use than commercial use.

Peter

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 11:54:19 PM »
Matt,

Thank You for that Honorable mention!
  :-[

I just hope my experiments can help others to make even better pies.I still envy many of the pies here on the forum as well.Hope to learn more and keep passing it along.

:)

-Bill


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Offline gabaghool

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 01:04:07 PM »
I have to put my vote in the YES category.  The slice style ny slice, only opinion are far different than the ELITE pie.  I think this comes from choice of fermentation style as well as CHEESE style choice, with Difaras in acatagory almost all their own.  Quick term, the use of 00 flour, the use of a combo of mops, the use oh fresh tomato, canned tomato blend......he really does things differently than anyone else......and no other well known pizzeria has such differing opinions on how good they are, not even APIZZA SCHOLLS, OR PEPE'S.

AGAIN...this is all my opinion.

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 01:28:58 PM »
Nick,

A few years ago, a member lobbied for a new entry in the forum's pizza indexing system for the New Haven style pizzas. Many, including Peter Reinhart, lump the New Haven style of pizza in with the other elite style pizzerias, including John's, Totonno's, Grimaldi's, etc. (Peter Reinhart also includes the Pennsylvania Taconelli's in the mix). The request prompted me to search the forum to see how many threads dealt with "making" the New Haven style pizza. As you can see from my report at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5994.msg53363/topicseen.html#msg53363, I found only one. If I were to do a similar search for threads on making other elite style pizzas, I would be lucky to find only a few. There wouldn't be enough threads to set up a separate entry in the pizza making section of the forum just for the elite style. I reported on the Grimaldi's dough (in Arizona, not NYC) and there are a few threads on reverse engineering DiFara's, Patsy's and Lombardi's pizzas but other than those there are essentially only fragments of threads, including bits on Totonno's and maybe John's. 

Peter

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 03:32:58 PM »
Matt- thanks for the link to Bills "Street-Style Pizza".  Bill's slice looks exactly what is referenced when talking about New York slices, but not often visually replicated.

Peter - great information, as always a wealth of knowledge.  As you have mentioned Reinharts have increased oil/sugar and hydration options, but these same options seemingly have been used in a Lehmann pie.  I guess the question is then, at what point does the Lehmann (New York) style end and the Reinhart (American) style begin.  If there even is a point of separation, maybe your "intent" is what separates the two.

gabaghool and anyone else - Would you say Apizza Scholls is at the level of elite pizza?  I guess I shouldn't say elite as they use a deck oven.  I'm not geographically able to visit any new York place, but am just down the street from Apizza Scholls and Kens Artisan so these may be my best shot at comparable(?) New York Pizza, street or elite.

Norma - I have made very few pies (compared to yourself and others), but do have dough in the fridge now and will post pics soon.  Their based on Reinharts formula from the FornoBravo site.

Thanks to all the posters on this forum, as "whatever" your making, it looks good.  ;D

Danes Dad


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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 04:43:12 PM »
NY Style (Joes)
.07 to .085 thickness factor
1-3% oil in formula
Frequently some sugar
4-6 minute bake
deck oven
Low moisture brick mozzerella
Bromated high gluten flour
Puffy, chewy, but generally not all that crispy
Very little char, not much browning
Cheese on top of sauce
Straight dough
Overnight or same day ferment (generally, but can be improved with longer fermentation)
16-18" whole pies, 18"-21" slice pies.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rUyfOI7LHdE/SM44rT2YkyI/AAAAAAAAAWs/JjizjVvLne8/s400/Joes+Pizza+pie.JPG

Coal Style (Grimaldis, Tottonos, Patsy's, John's of Bleeker)
.07 to .085 thickness factor
No oil
No sugar
3-7 minute bake (with exceptions)
coal oven
Sometimes Fior di latte, sometimes Low moisture brick mozzerella
Bromated high gluten flour blended with 00 (to reduce enzyme activity/sugar production/browning)
Charred, ashy, crunchy (more 'well done' than NY)
Sauce on top of cheese (generally)
Straight dough
Overnight or same day ferment (generally, but can be improved with longer fermentation)
18" whole pies

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2562900311_57d3ab8bdb.jpg

Artisan Style (Apizza Scholls)
Sourdough

American Style
Higher oil
Longer bake times
Greater thickness factor

Danes Dad, there's not such thing as "Lehmann Style,"  there's only a Lehmann recipe.  If you take a Lehmann recipe and make a .1 thickness factor pizza (an extremely common practice in this forum), you're not making NY Style pizza, but more of a NY/American hybrid.

And there's also no such thing as an 'elite level.'  This is my primary issue with the term 'elite.' That, by it's very nature, it implies a level of quality- that somehow coal is superior to NY slice pies.  It isn't.

And, if you want to improve your pizzamaking skills, stop reading Reinhart.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 04:47:40 PM by scott123 »

Offline gabaghool

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 06:15:10 PM »
DD.......Oh yeah........A.S.  would DEFINITELY be classified as "elite" if that's the word u want to use.  And don't make the mistake of thinking the type of oven (other than conveyor, imo) is something to judge its classification.  Some guys on here, ESPECIALLY Scott consider decks a Ny style staple....and MANY of the nations most claimed pies come from deck ovens.  In fact, I consider them a BRICK OVEN,  CAUSE IN MOST CASES...the ovens ARE lined with brick.  So don't make the mistake of only considering wood and coal as brick ovens.


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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 06:26:18 PM »
Yeah, PETE... im kinda surprised NY and NH are kind bunched in together...they ARE different in many aspects. NH uses. FAR, FAR less fresh mooz,  many, many of them DO NOT TOLERATE oregano on their pies (ridiculous in my opinion) and MUCH more char is evident, and I believe a far larger percentage oh NH places use SHREDDED mo than sliced (not including PEPE'S).....Oh and I know of NO NH style place where cheese goes on first.... not saying they don't exist...but to ME, that oregano thing KILLS me.  In my family, or straight off the boat, any tomato sauce with oregano IS CALLED PIZZA SAUCE.  believe it or not, italians do not use a lot of oregano.... I think that is 1 of the bad things about italian american cooking..... the overuse of oregano.

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2011, 06:46:50 PM »
I think that is 1 of the bad things about italian american cooking..... the overuse of oregano.

I think the overuse of oregano is bad, but the overuse of dried basil is 10 times worse, imo. Dried basil is the kiss of death for any sauce, be it for pizza or pasta.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2011, 06:57:08 PM »
I think the overuse of oregano is bad, but the overuse of dried basil is 10 times worse, imo. Dried basil is the kiss of death for any sauce, be it for pizza or pasta.

I learned that the hard way.Won't ever use dried basil again.Has an awful medicine like taste to it.
-Bill

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2011, 07:39:22 PM »
Danes Dad,

To clarify some of the nomenclature a bit, the “Lehmann NY style dough recipe” designation was derived from the PMQ Think Tank Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/ and also from this forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_recipes.html. scott123 is correct that there is no such thing on the NYC scene known as a “Lehmann” NY style pizza. It is a designation that has been used on this forum to distinguish Tom Lehmann’s NY style dough recipes from other NY style dough recipes. But I would say that the Lehmann NY style dough recipe is fairly representative of commercial recipes for making doughs that can be cold fermented for up to about three days. 

I volunteered to try to adapt Tom’s recipe to a home setting back in September, 2004. For my purposes, I started out with a thickness factor of around 0.10-0.105 (the recipe did not specify dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes so I decided to use the above value). That is a value that I still personally like but I eventually asked Tom Lehmann himself for some typical dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes for the NY style. From the numbers he gave me, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.0870 for a 14” pizza and 0.08829 for a 16” pizza. Both of these pizza sizes are ones that can be made in most standard home ovens.

As far as what qualifies as a NY “street” style, I have seen several recipes that are held out to be NY street style with thickness factors across a fairly wide range. A good example is Bruno’s NY style dough recipe as described in the video at As the video notes, Bruno uses eggs (which he considers an “essential” ingredient) and, by my calculation, he is using a thickness factor of 0.0995. I think most people familiar with the NY pizza scene would not consider Bruno’s pizza to be an authentic NY street style. But far be it for me to tell an Italian guy from NYC with the name of Bruno that he is using a thickness factor that is too high, and that he shouldn’t use eggs and he shouldn’t call his pizza a New York style.

Since the term “elite” has been bandied about on this forum for several years, including by me, I went back into the archives to see where I picked up the term. As best I can tell, it was member Arthur (from Brooklyn) and member canadave (originally from NYC) who were the ones who started using that term to describe the pizzerias that used coal-fired ovens and in some cases wood-fired ovens. See, for example, Arthur’s post in August, 2004 at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,534.msg4640/topicseen.html#msg4640 and canadave’s post in November, 2005 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19124/topicseen.html#msg19124. You will note that in the INTRODUCTION section of canadave’s post, he essentially defines the terms NY “street” style and the NY “elite” style and how they differ and how both can have their pluses and minuses. But he wasn’t judgmental in favoring one style over the other.

With respect to your question about where the Lehmann NY style ends and the Reinhart “American” style begins, I would say that the separation between the two styles turns mainly on the amounts of oil and sugar, and the thickness factor. As you will see from Tom’s recipe at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/, there is only 1% oil and no sugar (although Tom recommends a bit of sugar if the dough is to be held in cold fermentation beyond about two to three days).  As noted earlier, the thickness factor is below 0.09. By contrast, if you look at the baker’s percent versions of two of Peter Reinhart’s NY style dough recipes that I set forth at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69678.html#msg69678, you will see that the oil and sugar/honey quantities are much, much higher and the thickness factor is around 0.117-0.119. If you would like to see the dough recipe that Peter Reinhart holds out as an “American” style, see Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672/topicseen.html#msg63672. If you compare the three Reinhart dough recipes against the Lehmann dough recipe, you will see that the Reinhart dough recipes are quite similar and far apart from the Lehmann recipe.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:33:44 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline gabaghool

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2011, 07:59:26 PM »
Dry basil......a hideous version of the real thing.....Now,  oregano, on the other hand, is, i'll, is one of the ONLY herbs made better by drying out.  In fact, in the town I came from in italy oregano was NEVER used fresh...so I can't get the trend of using it fresh....

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 08:32:31 PM »
gabaghool and anyone else - Would you say Apizza Scholls is at the level of elite pizza?  I guess I shouldn't say elite as they use a deck oven.  I'm not geographically able to visit any new York place, but am just down the street from Apizza Scholls and Kens Artisan so these may be my best shot at comparable(?) New York Pizza, street or elite.

Danes Dad,

If you would like to learn about Brian Spangler's dough, you may want to read the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.0.html. His dough recipe as I reconstructed it from information that Brian gave to us on the forum is also in that thread. You will also note from post #7 at http://portlandfood.org/topic/988-round-table-discussion/, that Brian was inspired by the NY and New Haven styles.

Peter

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 08:38:10 PM »
Dry basil......a hideous version of the real thing.....Now,  oregano, on the other hand, is, i'll, is one of the ONLY herbs made better by drying out.  In fact, in the town I came from in italy oregano was NEVER used fresh...so I can't get the trend of using it fresh....

I agree with that.I tried it fresh and prefer the dried oregano best.I love to sprinkle some around the top of the pie when it first comes out of the oven.The smell is intoxicating to me.
 :)
-Bill

Offline Essen1

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Re: Should New York style be split into two different "styles"
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 08:48:51 PM »
But far be it for me to tell an Italian guy from NYC with the name of Bruno that he is using a thickness factor that is too high, and that he shouldn’t use eggs and he shouldn’t call his pizza a New York style.


I see we're afraid of the Mob!  :-D

All joking aside, Bruno's video resembles almost exactly what Luigi is doing except for the yeast and egg thing. There are also some 7/11s and Full Red in the video.

Interesting...
Mike

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