Author Topic: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help  (Read 4154 times)

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Offline Jasonk

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Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« on: September 25, 2011, 02:10:02 AM »
Hi gang,

I've been using this recipe for awhile now, and while happy with it, am not sure I want to keep it.  I was wondering if anyone might be able to spot some potential problems.  For one, the dough is pretty hard to work with, which I'm guessing comes from the high gluten content of the mix.  Also, with that high gluten content, I'm wondering if I need to up my hydration level...or possibly go with a lower gluten main flour.  It can sometimes get too hard/chewy...especially after being left in the fridge for a few days before use.   

600 g (21 oz) Super Camillia flour (unbleached bread flour, 11% gluten)
200 g (7 oz) Caputo 00 (this is a holdover from when I was trying to make something suitable for both Chicago and regular dough both)
200 g (7 oz) Semolina
500 g (17.6 oz) water
100 g olive oil (3.5 oz)
35 g (1.25 oz) brown sugar
10 g (.35 oz) dissolved rock salt
3 tsp Saf-yeast.

I tried working this into the dough calculator, but it wouldn't spit out any numbers...just read Nan zz / Nan g, so I must be doing something wrong...

Using a 25 cm pan (10 inch) and my typical dough weight is around 350g (12.3 oz). Is that too small for the size? 

Tips, advice are welcome!  Thanks!




Offline Jasonk

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2011, 10:30:18 PM »
Well, was hoping for some input, but through some tests on my own I found that if I let the dough rise a few hours after rolling it and putting it in the pan, I'm getting better results.

I'm still unsure as to whether 350g/12.3 oz is good for a 10 inch pan though...

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 10:50:54 PM »
Jasonk,

What kind of yeast are you using and what is the depth of your pan, is it straight or sloping sided, and how far up the sides of the pan are you pushing the dough? Maybe we can work out the numbers for your pizza.

Peter


Offline Jasonk

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 10:59:41 PM »
We're using the Lloyd 10" 2.25"deep PSTK stackable (more or less straight sided) pans.  We typically run the dough high on the sides, but then use the top pan to push the edge down to the 1.5" mark where they stack.  They rise a bit above this in the oven. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2011, 11:03:01 PM »
Jasonk,

And the type of yeast?

Peter

Offline Jasonk

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2011, 11:57:22 PM »
Saf Yeast instant.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 11:03:47 AM »
Jasonk,

I converted your recipe to bakerís percent format and played around with the thickness factor values in the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html until I arrived at a thickness factor value that yields a total dough ball weight of 350 grams. I got the following (with explanatory notes attached):

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.904%):
Salt (1%):
Olive Oil (10%):
Brown Sugar (3.5%):
Total (165.404%):
211.6 g  |  7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs
105.8 g  |  3.73 oz | 0.23 lbs
1.91 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
2.12 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
21.16 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.7 tsp | 1.57 tbsp
7.41 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.85 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
350 g | 12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = 0.10686
*The Flour Blend comprises a blend of Super Camillia flour (60% of the total), Caputo 00 flour (20%) and semolina (20%); the calculations are based on a sloping-sided (or stackable) deep-dish pan with a top diameter of 10Ē and a bottom diameter of 9.875Ē, a depth of 2.25" and with the dough being pressed up the sides of the pan by 1.5".
Note: No bowl residue compensation

I then used the Dough Weight option of the deep-dish dough calculating tool to come up with the numbers for the total dough batch weight (1654.04 grams), and got the following:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.904%):
Salt (1%):
Olive Oil (10%):
Brown Sugar (3.5%):
Total (165.404%):
1000 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs
500 g  |  17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs
9.04 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
100 g | 3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs | 7.41 tbsp | 0.46 cups
35 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.75 tsp | 2.92 tbsp
1654.04 g | 58.34 oz | 3.65 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend comprises a blend of 600 grams of Super Camillia flour (60% of the total), 200 grams of Caputo 00 flour (20%) and 200 grams of semolina (20%).
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In the first formulation set forth above, you will see that I came up with a thickness factor of 0.10686 that corresponded to your pan size and shape and the amount of dough (and skin depth in the pan) you have used for a single pizza (350 grams). I would say that that value is on the low side for a deep-dish pizza. A more typical value might be 0.125. That is the value that is used, for example, in the popular deep-dish dough recipes set forth in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg55567.html#msg55567. However, I have seen thickness factors for the deep-dish style that are as low as about 0.11 and as high as about 0.14. That is something that you can play around with until you are satisfied with the thickness of the finished crust.

In the second dough formulation set forth above, you will note that the three kinds of flours are combined for purposes of using the deep-dish dough calculating tool (the same is also true for the first dough formulation set forth above). The reason for this is that all three flours are hydrated by the formula water. The deep-dish dough calculating tool was not designed to handle multiple flours separately.

In both of the dough formulations set forth above, I converted the brown sugar to volume measurements using the conversion factor of 1 teaspoon brown sugar (light or dark) = 0.1410934 ounces (4 grams). The sugar entry in the deep-dish dough calculating tool is for table sugar (sucrose) only. However, you will find that the differences between brown sugar and white table sugar are so small that you can use the values produced by the deep-dish dough calculating tool without any problem.

I canít speak to whether your hydration value is the proper one although it looks to be in the ballpark for a deep-dish dough except that many of our members use a lot more oil, which has its own "wetting" effect on the dough. I also know that some of our members who are much more knowledgeable about the deep-dish style than I who prefer not to use too much olive oil for that style because of its pronounced flavor profile. Quite typical is a blend of olive oil and some other oil, such as corn oil, especially when the total oil is much higher than what you are using (which is on the low end of the scale). Your percent semolina appears to be in line with what our members use for their deep-dish doughs incorporating semolina.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:42:56 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jasonk

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 10:02:34 AM »
Pete, thanks!

I went on vacation just after your last post, and forgot to check until now, much appreciated!

Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 01:08:33 PM »
Jason, what kind of pizza are you trying to replicate?  A thin crust or a deep dish? Any particular pizzeria?


Offline sueohb

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Hi,
I have been trying to recreate Lou Malnatis pizza for some time as I now live in rural MI (born and raised in CHI). I came across an episode of America's Test Kitchen where they gave it a shot.  Their dough recipe is similar - and they do use semolina. They then spread some softened butter on rolled out dough after the first rise and then ball the dough again for the second rise.   Have you or anyone else tried this approach? I did try it and it came out pretty well.. but I'm always looking for advice on ways to improve.  Thanks for any comments.. suggestions!


Offline BTB

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 06:49:57 PM »
Sue, we recently talked about the ATK episode or recipe in another thread in this section.  See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14379.0.html .  The ATK recipe isn't even close to classic Chicago Deep Dish style pizza in mine and some others humble opinions.  And while semolina is to me and many others a good addition, the ATK recipe did not include it.  Instead they included cornmeal, the inclusion of which is a long inaccurate myth for Chicago Style deep dish pizza recipes.  And the ATK recipe results in a more bread-like crust unlike the classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias.  But if you liked it, that's all that's important.  I think it probably is closer to the Denver based company that owns the Old Chicago pizza chain that makes deep dish pizza completely unlike those in Chicago.

BTW, my wife and I spend a good part of the summers in SW Michigan, so if you'd like any pizza tips in the area, let me know.  While there are some very good pizza places, there are no good deep dish pizza places in SW Michigan, except in my kitchen. 
                                                                                                                 --BTB

Offline sueohb

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2011, 08:23:35 PM »
Hi BTB - thanks much for your response!  I searched for comments on that episode - but came up with no matches.. so glad to see the link and get the groups' thoughts!  I do realize I misspoke .. I agree the ATK recipe does NOT have semolina.. I got it confused with a Giordano's  recreation on KAF site which i have tried recently.

I tried a Lou recipe from the forum a few times, a couple of years ago - but at the time I did not have a digital scale nor was I aware of KAF or 6 in 1. The attempts a few years ago were OK - but "not Lou's" (according to my husband) .. so felling like I could never quite  "get it", I then ventured out to try to perfect a thin crust..

When I saw the ATK segment, I decided to give it another try. The result was better than my previous attempt, and enthused my husband .. and he thought it was better than deep dish we've  had in SW MI.

That said, I have picked up some things/techniques/better ingredients/confidence along the way and now think I should try the a "Lou's" recipe again from the forum .  So next weekend I will do that .. and based on comments in the threads, I am confident it will surpass the results from the ATK recipe!

On a related note.. we live in Gobles area.. go to Kzoo for most pizza choices (Bimbos, Bilbo's, Fricanos, Martinis, Erabelli's). Most of them are pretty /very good, but we still have not found a place as good as CHI (Aurelio's, Fox's for thin crust - Old World, Lou's for deep dish and Giordano's for stuffed) .... I would love to get your thoughts on some good places to try. We are willing to venture beyond kzoo for pizza!!!
Thanks again for your info /comments! 

Offline Jasonk

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2011, 08:19:14 AM »
Jason, what kind of pizza are you trying to replicate?  A thin crust or a deep dish? Any particular pizzeria?



Mick, not trying to replicate anyone really, just my take on a Chicago-style. 

Pete, I upped the dough size from 350 g to 400, and had a little better visual results in the 10 inch pan.  I took it all the way to the top of the pan, then pressed another stackable on top of it and had a nice, uniform ring after I let it rise a little longer.  Visually it was a bit nicer. 

Next step will be an oil up and mix change...I'm thinking of trying 75 g of olive, and 75 g of canola.  I'll do 2 pies side-by-side, old and new mix, and see how I like the results. 

Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2011, 02:10:48 PM »
That's always an easier approach to take rather than trying to nail an exact replica of a certain pizzeria.

I was going to suggest removing the sugar from the dough. That's all :)

Offline BBH

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2011, 05:16:04 PM »
What I have for this one is:

Flour 80% KAAP 20% Semolina
Water(47%)
ADY (.75%)
Salt (1%)
Olive Oil (6%)
Corn Oil(12%)
Butter(6%)
Sugar(1.5%)

I don't remember where I got the base (BTB), but I think from this site then added in Semolina.....I have a Lou's by my house and this was dead on to me.  Sauce used was 6n1 with typical mix of basil/oregano.....

BBH
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 05:17:54 PM by BBH »

Offline BTB

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Re: Chicago style dough formulation with semolina help
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2011, 11:23:33 AM »
. . . On a related note.. we live in Gobles area.. go to Kzoo for most pizza choices (Bimbos, Bilbo's, Fricanos, Martinis, Erabelli's). Most of them are pretty /very good, but we still have not found a place as good as CHI (Aurelio's, Fox's for thin crust - Old World, Lou's for deep dish and Giordano's for stuffed) .... I would love to get your thoughts on some good places to try. We are willing to venture beyond kzoo for pizza!!!
Thanks again for your info /comments!  
Hey Sue, you sound really interested in making and having some great pizzas.  And as Martha says . . .  that's a good thing.  Keep exploring, learning and (unfortunately) go through some trial and error and your results will eventually please you and your family and friends.  Keep recipe records to see what was good and what was not so good in all your pizzamaking trials because sometimes it's not easy to recall what you did . . . "the time before."  And I write notes "profusely" on my recipe printouts because my memory fades quickly.
 
Our summer cottage is not too far from Gobles and we were once told that Nino's south of Gobles was interesting, but while fairly good, it was not too exciting.  And we've been to all the pizzerias that you mentioned in Kzoo except Erbelli's.  We've been to Bilbo's long before they moved to their newer locations and think they've went down hill alot.  Bennucci's Chicago Oven on the east side of Kzoo specializes in Chicago style deep dish, but my wife and I were disappointed when we once tried them a couple of years ago.  Our favorite for thin crust in Kzoo is Bimbo's on East Michigan.  But we've learned that we have to bring a small shaker of Oregano with us as they put absolutely no spices on their pizzas it seems (and they have none in the house).  And there's a great sausage maker on the east side of town that is a good source of sausage for home pizzamaking -- whose name escapes me for the moment.
 
We both like and dislike the Fricano's there in Alamo.  The Fricano family have about 6 locations in southwest Michigan and the original in Grand Haven is by far the best of the group and the only one at which you can get a totally crispy and crunchy wafer thin pizza.  And in the summer they have a line outside the door for admission into their pizzeria.  The pizza at the Alamo location is very tasty and flavorful, but most often comes "soggy," which is a real drawback.  We often order them extra well done, but even that doesn't seem to do the trick.  I don't know why their ovens or procedure are different from the Grand Haven parent.  But they are the only full menu Fricano's restaurant and their other food items on the menu are really good.
 
I'll follow up with some of my other thoughts about SW MI pizzas but will probably do so in the Chit Chat thread as website administration would prefer it that way.  (See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16319.msg159367.html#msg159367
 
                                                                                       --BTB
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 11:46:26 AM by BTB »


 

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