Author Topic: kneading ?? (novice type question...)  (Read 4391 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline youonlylivetwice

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 179
kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« on: July 01, 2005, 03:24:45 PM »
Quick question....
I have read, somewhere, that one of the crucial processes that kneading accomplishes is to incorporate air into the dough.  I have also read that you don't want the dough to oxidize.  Aren't these sort of the same thing? I have been using a kitchenaid stand mixer, and my gut feeling is that it just doesn't knead the dough well enough.  I am generally making smaller amounts, for maybe one 15" pizza.  It more or less turns the dough around the bowl and eventually spirals it up the dough hook.  I am going to go back to trying a hand knead this weekend, but then am I going to oxidize the dough and kill the flavor?  I usually mix the ingredients just into a ball, give them a good 10-15 minute rest, and then knead.  Just trying to make sense of the information and my results.  I often end up with too bready of a crust, and wonder if I need (no pun intended) to get more air into the dough. 
Thanks for your thoughts!


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2005, 04:34:05 PM »
youonlylivetwice,

You are correct that a dough needs air incorporated into it. That is because the yeast needs oxygen to reproduce. Once the oxygen is in the dough and the yeast starts to reproduce, it really gobbles up the oxygen like crazy, and the process soon becomes anaerobic. The oxidation that you have read about that is potentially harmful usually comes from overly aggressive kneading of the dough, which damages carotenes in the flour which contribute to color and flavor in the finished crust. There is no way that you will be able to do this under ordinary circumstances by hand kneading.

You may have also read a lot about autolysing a dough. This is done by combining water and flour (sometimes with yeast and sometimes not, but without salt) and letting the mixture rest for a specified time (e.g., 15 minutes or more). One of the benefits of the autolyse is that it reduces the overall knead time, which also has the effect of reducing oxidation. What you did in mixing all of your ingredients together and letting the mixture set for about 10-15 minutes, while technically not an autolyse, was similar to it (because of improved hydration). One of the other effects of using an autolyse or other rest period is that the finished crumb can be breadlike. This is usually a sought after effect for breads (autolyse was first conceived in the context of bread making), but not everyone likes it in a pizza crust. If you don't like that effect, then you can omit the rest period.

So, I don't think there is any need for you to worry about hurting anything when you hand knead your dough this weekend.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2005, 08:18:31 AM »
Just to avoid confusion:

In aerobic condition the yeast reproduce

In anaerobic condition, the yeast ferment.

It is also important to note that the yeast just expand the initial air bubble in the mixed dough my filling them with CO2.



Ciao

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2005, 09:42:19 AM »
Marco,

I have read that the carbon dioxide, being a soluble gas, goes into solution fairly quickly while in the dough and that it is quite possible that it is nitrogen that fills up the air pockets. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2005, 02:26:17 PM »
Peter

The gluten is insoluble and the gas get trap into it.

Have you ever made a tempura starting from a Perrier water?

That is what I am talking about.

Offline Les

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 199
  • Age: 67
  • It's Proper to use Grape Tomatoes in Wine Country
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2005, 03:06:25 PM »
I didn't know where to post this, but this is a general question about dough.

For the last two days my dough has been in the refrigerator, anaerobically stored.  This dough has yeast and poolish in it, and it has been very vigorous in rising.  I've punched it down twice already (should I have?).  Now, a few hours before I am going to proof it in my warm, moist microwave, it has doubled in size again.  I wonder if I should punch it down again now while it's still in the refrigerator, if I should punch it down when I am about to proof it, or if I should leave it alone and let it proof the way it is?  Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2005, 04:55:22 PM »
Les,

I think you were OK punching down the dough while it was in the refrigerator. I'd be inclined to punch it down again. But I don't think I would proof it in your warm, high humidity microwave oven. I would just let the cold dough warm up at room temperature until it is safe to use to make your pizza (I use 60-65 degrees F). If you take the dough from the refrigerator to the "proofing" environment, the dough may overproof/overferment. I have never made a pizza dough like yours with three rises, so I don't have any idea as to how the dough will behave once it hits the oven. In many respects, your pizza dough seems to be more like bread dough. An overfermented bread dough can collapse in the oven and produce a poor risen loaf. It would be nice not to have the same thing happen to your pizza dough, i.e., poor oven spring and a poor crumb.

Peter

Offline JimBob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2005, 09:37:08 AM »
Is it true that the more you punch the dough down the tighter the cell structure (air bubbles) become?
JimBob

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2005, 04:28:30 PM »
JimBob,

When you say punched down, do you also mean re-kneading?

Peter

Offline JimBob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2005, 06:39:45 PM »
I am familiar with the process that encompasses punching down the risen dough and then reforming it into balls.  I would assume that the minor kneeding that occurs from the ball reformation constitutes re-kneeding and it's during this time that I notice the tightening of the gluten.
JimBob


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2005, 07:40:46 PM »
JimBob,

It usually is not a good idea to punch down the dough and reshape or reknead it just as you are about to shape it into a skin. This tightens up the gluten such that it can take some time (often measured in hours) for the gluten to relax again so that you can work with it. You will perhaps be OK if you knock down the dough and reshape/reknead it a couple hours before shaping, for example, when you take the dough out of the refrigerator to warm up on the counter.

Ordinarily, it is not a problem to knock down a dough and reshape/reknead it in the early stages of the dough production. Several things happen when you do this: the yeast is redistributed throughout the dough and is exposed to new sources of food (natural sugars extracted from the flour and any added sweeteners), the "old" carbon dioxide is expelled from the dough, and air is reincorporated into the dough. As a result, more carbon dioxide is produced to enable the dough to rise again. As you might expect, there is a practical limit as to how many times you can let a dough rise and knock down. There has to be enough yeast and enough food for the yeast to support multiple rises. Otherwise, at some point the yeast runs out of food and the dough starts to go downhill. At that point, there may not be enough carbon dioxide production to provide a good oven spring when the skin (dressed) hits the oven, and the finished product will have diminished volume (and other shortcomings).

Peter

Offline JimBob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 09:05:33 AM »
What part of the dough making process/recipe controls the size of the air pockets in the crumb?
JimBob

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2005, 10:08:41 AM »
JimBob,

Looking at the size of holes in a focaccia or ciabatta bread, which are extremely high hydration breads (typically 70-80% and above), I would say that high hydration is a big factor. Many believe that intentionally underkneading a dough, minimizing handling, and letting biochemical gluten development carry the load will produce bigger holes in the crumb. For oven spring purposes, I would say that you clearly want to avoid overrising the dough, and you want to have a good hot surface, like a pizza stone preheated at high oven temperature, for the pizza dough to hit to get that last burst of activity out of the yeast before the yeast is killed (around 140 degrees F). Using a lot of yeast is often credited with producing big holes in a crumb, but I think it is less important than most believe. I have gotten big holes using very small amounts of yeast. Some believe that using a commercial yeast to supplement a natural preferment will produce a better oven spring with bigger holes in the crumb. I haven't personally done much with this approach to really have an opinion one way or another.

Trying to elevate the hydration in a pizza dough seems like it would be a good way to get bigger holes in the crumb but it is tough to do because of the difficulty in handling the dough when it is saturated with water. Usually what happens is the pizza maker has to add a lot of bench flour to be able to work with the dough (which lowers the hydration level), shape it into a skin, dress it, and put it into the oven. A bread dough is far easier to handle because there are fewer steps.

Peter

Offline bakerboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 106
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2005, 10:10:58 AM »
jimbob, thats kinda like asking what makes a car go fast.  Some might say motor, others might say tires, or driver, or gasoline....and they would all be right.  If you put a gun to my head, i'd have to say a long slow mix, high hydration, and gentle handling of the risen product.  If you check out some ciabatta recipes, you'll find the technique used is designed for the type of open crumb your looking for.
good luck
barry

Offline JimBob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2005, 11:59:54 AM »
Thanks guys.
JimBob

Offline Lynny

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2005, 09:10:23 AM »
Pete

I let my dough rise 3 times the other night (after the same process on Italian bread produced such a beautiful loaf I wanted to try it with a pizza crust.) and my wife absolutely loved it.  I thought it was nice, too, but I'm a pizza lover so its hard for me not to like one.  On the contrast however, I invited a buddy over for an impromptu pizza the other night and I used my "quickie" method of making the dough, rolling it out in the pan, coating the top with a butter/olive oil mix and letting it rise for about 30 minutes.  He paid me a very nice compliment and said that it was one of THE best pizzas he'd had in a long, long time. 

Now I'm torn between feeding my wife or my buddy...I think I'll have to go with the buddy, as he likes pizza more often than my wife.  ;D

Peace,
Lynny

P.S.  I'm seeing a lot of new (to me) terminology around here.  Does the forum have a glossary section where one can find all these terms and definitions in one place?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2005, 10:03:44 AM »
Lynny,

Each dough has a preordained life span when it comes off the hook that is usually governed by the amount of yeast used, the amount of food (natural and added) provided for the yeast, and the temperature of the dough during fermentation/rising. Those factors will inherently govern how many risings a dough can have before going downhill. Based on what you said about the two doughs you made, I would guess that the crust your wife had was better than the one you served your friend.

As for a glossary, you will note that a glossary is contemplated in due course: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1466.msg13322.html#msg13322.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 10:06:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Lynny

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2005, 10:14:52 AM »
Pete

Well, of course I will have to get to the bottom of this.  :)  Perhaps I will see if both are free tomorrow and I'll make one each way and we'll do a proper (proper laymen's, that is) comparison of the two.  My wife is a bit vague in her evaluations of my creations, whereas my buddy is a bit more helpful in his details.  Perhaps with the two ends of the spectrum I can come up with something of note.   ;)

Thanks for the quick reply, and all your replies in fact, they make excellent reading.  Oh, quick comment.  Your descriptions of autolysing sound very similar to what my baker friend has described to me as "proofing" the yeast.  Would you be so kind as to differentiate the two for me? 

Peace-a!  <- my new sig, when I use it anywhere else..nobody will have a clue, I'll bet..lol
Lynny

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22140
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2005, 12:28:07 PM »
Lynny,

I think you may be confusing proofing a yeast as opposed to proofing a dough. Proofing yeast (such as active dry yeast, or ADY) means hydrating the yeast in a liquid, usually warm water, to activate it in preparation for combining with other ingredients in the recipe. Proofing as applied to a dough is the term that is commonly used to mean the last rise of the dough before baking. It is a term that is most often used in bread making, although it is also used for certain pizza doughs, such as deep-dish doughs that are allowed to rise in the pan before dressing to make pizzas. The "proofing" in such cases is usually at room temperature or in commercial proofing equipment that is both temperature and humidity controlled. 

Autolyse is a procedure (which also originated in bread making) by which flour and water are combined and allowed to rest for a specified time period (for example, 15 minutes to an hour) to permit the flour to better absorb the water. After the rest period, the remaining ingredients are added and kneaded together. This is the classical autolyse. There are many variations of it that are also often called "autolyse", in which the sequence of combining the ingredients may be quite different. As you can see, autolyse is quite different from either of the proofing methods described above.

Peter

Offline Lynny

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: kneading ?? (novice type question...)
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2005, 10:32:33 PM »
Pete,

I guess I was confused somewhere in there.  I must have thought I had seen yeast mentioned in the autolyse process.  I noticed you mentioned ADY (ActiveDryYeast) (I had to go look those up since the definition/glossary isn't completed  :) I use IDY (InstantDryYeast) these days) in connection to the proofing of the yeast.  I used to use ADY when I first began my pizza from scratch endeavors, but when I finally ran out (a friend of the wifes had given me boatloads of product leftover from her job, and the surplus of yeast actually helped get me into this.) I switched to the Fleischman's (probably misspelled that) IDY you get at Sam's Club.  It wasn't until just recently that I noticed the difference in ratio compared to ADY, and I'm ashamed to admit I was continuing to use the same amount I always had.  No real ill effects to speak of, but when I did notice, and made adjustments..wow.  The finished product seemed to be very soft, light, "fluffy"?  Everyone seemed to enjoy the change.

So, the additional risings and the adjustment to the yeast may have coincided with one another, I don't recall now.  I didn't do my comparison today, but I did make a lovely pie using my "quickie" rise technique, 30 minute process.  My buddy came over and helped us eat it.  He's so good about that, its interesting..  ;)  His comments on this pizza were not as glowing as the previous, but this was an interesting thing to note.  He doesn't feel that green peppers and onions add anything to the pie so his opinion, in his own words, was adjusted accordingly.  He still felt it was a really nice pizza, but he gave lower marks this time because I added other goodies that I love...green peppers, onions, black olives, and mushrooms.  He felt it overshadowed the flavor of the pepperoni, and specially seasoned sausage I use.  Fair comment I suppose, lol..but he did his share to make it disappear nonetheless...

Anyway, before I forget my question.  I have always proofed my yeast since using ADY.  Are there any differences in proofing IDY, is it the same, is it necessary with IDY?  I feel I've shown my ignorance now, and I should have done a bit more research when I switched from ADY to IDY.  I've run on a bit, time to wind down.  Thanks for listening.   :-[


Peace-a!
Lynny


 

pizzapan