Flames vs. No Flames

[TXCraig1]

Omid had a great question in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154645.html#msg154645

Here is a couple of statements that you may find of interest. In respect to baking Pizza Napoletana in a Neapolitan oven, not long ago, the Sicilian oven builder Giuseppe Crisa of Forno Classico told me that, "It is the flame that should bake the pizza. [Home] gas oven or grill can't make pizza napoletana."

Yesterday, at Pizzeria Ortica in Costa Mesa, I met an elderly gentleman from Naples who told me very much the same thing: "Real pizza napoletana is done with flame, not just hot wood. Need flame."

Please, let me know your thoughts on this subject.

There was a lot of good discussion to follow, but his PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO! thread has moved off in another direction. Rather than hijack it, I wanted to post a couple pictures from last nights bake here.

I kept open flames for the first six pies of the night, but I let them die out before baking the last pie of the evening. These are the last two pies of the evening. You can see the stark difference between the two, and he last, flameless pie, was in the oven for almost 30 seconds longer!

The first 5 pies can be seen here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14249.msg155313.html#msg155313

CL

[Jet_deck]

I also have pictures from tonight to show the difference between flame and no flame.  Although mine is not a traditional wfo, the difference was about 30 seconds between the two.  Pictures to follow soon.

[BrickStoneOven]

The browning of the second one is more to my liking. I'm with Bill on that I rather have more coals over more flame. I haven't baked to much this year but I remembered one time when I didn't split enough wood and was baking with just coals. The heat was actually more even and steady throughout the oven with just the coals and whatever wood chips were around for some light to look into he oven. The heat level maintained for a good 15-20 minutes(it was nearing the end of the bake) at 880-890. They did take a little long to bake but that didn't really effect anything to much. But for all this to work with just coals you have to have a good size pile. This is why it is really important to have a fully saturated oven and not rush the preheating of the oven.

[Jackie Tran]

Sorry, I don't have anything useful to add other than that first pie looks really GOOD!

[doodneyy]

tx...
Flames!

m.

[pizza dr]

Craig

Your flameless pies look better than any pie my oven has ever seen  

But I agree from the photos there is no question which pies everyone would choose.  Clearly the flame from your oven creates the distinct character of a Neapolitan style pizza that I think most of us would consider desireable.  

The "duh" statement of the night however (I got that line from my 7 year old).... The flame is merely one component of many...  

Scot

[shuboyje]

If you had not told us I'd have guessed the flame less pie was from a lbe.  Has that same lack of top heat look.  Still nice, but not low dome wfo nice.

[bakeshack]

Craig,

How did you find the pizzas at Ortica?  Is it to your liking? That is the only NP pizzeria here in OC, as far as I know, and it is so-so for my taste.  Quite pricey as well. 


Marlon

[TXCraig1]

Craig,

How did you find the pizzas at Ortica?  Is it to your liking? That is the only NP pizzeria here in OC, as far as I know, and it is so-so for my taste.  Quite pricey as well. 

That was part of Omid's quote. I have not been.

CL

[Jet_deck]

My flames vs no flames pictures are here : http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12521.new.html#new

[Tman1]

I think both pies look great, but that the first has more of the true neopolitan feel. I also notice whenever the fame is out it takes longer for the pie to cook. I've heard some use wood chips to throw on their coal pile for a fast light up. I only cook with colas on the last couple as I'm winding down.... always takes longer.  Still be happy to put either one of those in front of someone.

[BrickStoneOven]

I think both pies look great, but that the first has more of the true neopolitan feel.

Don't want to move anyway from the topic but sometimes I think that people associate hyper leoparding and very dark almost charred with Neapolitan. IMHO the crumb should be blonde with light to semi-light leoparding.

This to me is Neapolitan.

[satgan]

Don't want to move anyway from he topic but sometimes I think that people associate hyper leoparding and very dark almost charred with Neapolitan. IMHO the crumb should be blond with light to semi-light leoparding.

This to me is Neapolitan.

+1

[RobynB]

+1 more 

[Pizza Napoletana]

Sometimes I think that people associate hyper leoparding and very dark almost charred with Neapolitan. IMHO the crumb should be blond with light to semi-light leoparding.

Dear friends, I think that BrickStoneOven has brought up a point worthy of consideration. Based upon my personal observation in Naples, it seems to me that sometimes we get disproportionately focused and preoccupied with the blisters and chars to the point of almost neglecting the rest of the pizza! I think "moderation" or "balance" is a key to Italian cuisine in general. To emphasize the weight of BrickStonesOven's point, I would like to quote a couple of passages below:

According to "Article 4.b." of Italy's "Ministry of Agriculture Communication" (dated 5/24/2004):
"Pizza Napoletana STG is characterized by a raised crust of golden color--a definite product from oven, soft to the touch and to the mouth."

According to the §3.5 of "Application for Registration of a TSG" [Council Regulation (EC) No 509/2006; (EC No. IT/TSG/007/0031/09.02.2005)]:
"Pizza Napoletana TSG is distinguished by a raised rim, a golden colour characteristic of products baked in the oven, and a tenderness to touch and to taste. . . ."

If the quoted statements above are representative of the Neapolitan tradition and representative of a general consensus amongst people of Naples, and if the "golden colour" precludes excessive blisters and charrs, then BrickStoneOven seems to have a valid point. Good day everyone!