Author Topic: should i toss this dough?  (Read 1353 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
should i toss this dough?
« on: October 12, 2011, 03:33:38 PM »
I was testing a new recipe and think i may have over fermented it because it smells slightly like a good octoberfest beer.
For 16 inch pie:
138g KABF
46g KAWF
225g water
1 tsp IDY
mixed and rested at room temp 4 hours
combine with:
184g KABF
1/2 tsp IDY
1 Tbsp sesame oil
1 Tbsp agave nectar
1 tsp finely ground smoked sea salt
mixed and kneaded in mixer for 10 minutes
balled and covered in fridge 48 hours

during this 48 cold rise, it blew up 3x its size and when removed from fridge its slightly smells like beer. I punched it down and balled it, should i let it thaw to room temp for 2 hours and shape it, or toss it in the trash?

I would like to mention that i normally get very little rise in my fridge when using smaller amounts of IDY so that why i added a bit more.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 03:39:39 PM by FeCheF »


Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 846
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 03:49:32 PM »
SO? What? You don't like the smell of beer? LOL
Actually, it might be pretty good. You have come this far, I'd make a pizza from the dough and see if you like it or not.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 04:45:53 PM »
SO? What? You don't like the smell of beer? LOL
Actually, it might be pretty good. You have come this far, I'd make a pizza from the dough and see if you like it or not.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Oh, i love the taste and smell of beer! I was just under the impression that over fermented doughs should be thrown out. Anyway, after punching it down and re balling it, it has barely risen in 1 1/2 hours. I guess it may need another 1 1/2 hours, maybe 2. Will see, I will post pics of the raw skin, and the topped, cooked product and let you know how it taste.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 20244
  • Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2011, 06:15:52 PM »
Oh, i love the taste and smell of beer! I was just under the impression that over fermented doughs should be thrown out. Anyway, after punching it down and re balling it, it has barely risen in 1 1/2 hours. I guess it may need another 1 1/2 hours, maybe 2. Will see, I will post pics of the raw skin, and the topped, cooked product and let you know how it taste.

FeCheF,

If you did a reball, you might need to wait long enough for the gluten to relax, to be able to open the dough okay. Sometimes it takes a little while for the dough to start fermenting again, if there is enough yeast left in the dough.  Steve made a pizza at market yesterday that was made with dough that was made about two weeks ago.  The dough looked like it was way over fermented.  The smell of the dough was also like beer.  When he made the final pizza it didn't have a lot of rise in the crust, but the taste of the crust sure was good.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 11:37:10 PM »
It took about 4 hours total to double in size from when i reballed it straight out of the fridge. So all in all it was 4 hour room temp ferment, 48 hour cold rise, and 4 hour room temp rise. The crust was a bit heavy but had lots of air pockets. The taste was very complex. Me and the wife both agreed it tasted like a really good fresh loaf of rye bread. The smoked sea salt gave the aroma of a crust that came straight out of a WFO, but didnt have a smoke flavor taste which is probably a good thing. Toppings were freshly shredded Maggio wmm, italian sausage, freshly sliced sargento wmm. Here are some pics.


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 20244
  • Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 07:41:44 AM »
FeCheF,

Your dough ball did make a very tasty looking pie.  :) Your crumb structure looks great too!  I have experienced that complex taste in pies made from doughs that looked overfermented.  Great job at figuring out what to do with your dough ball.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 10:55:37 AM »
FeCheF,

Your dough ball did make a very tasty looking pie.  :) Your crumb structure looks great too!  I have experienced that complex taste in pies made from doughs that looked overfermented.  Great job at figuring out what to do with your dough ball.

Norma

Thanks norma, I appreciate the compliments. I was a bit surprised how nicely it rised in the oven with a good amount of air pockets. I really thought it was going to end up flat with no air pockets. I contribute the complex flavor to the 48 cold ferment aswell as the sesame oil, agave nectar and 25% whole wheat flour gave it that rye smell and taste.

Im thinking of trying an overnight dough with less IDY this time so I dont get too much rise in the fridge. Im wondering if i should try cold fermenting just the poolish after it had its 4 hour room temp ferment, then give it a few hours to get back to room temp and add the rest of the flour and IDY ? Do you think the poolish will end being a pool on the bottom of my fridge?

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 20244
  • Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 02:36:39 PM »
Thanks norma, I appreciate the compliments. I was a bit surprised how nicely it rised in the oven with a good amount of air pockets. I really thought it was going to end up flat with no air pockets. I contribute the complex flavor to the 48 cold ferment aswell as the sesame oil, agave nectar and 25% whole wheat flour gave it that rye smell and taste.

Im thinking of trying an overnight dough with less IDY this time so I dont get too much rise in the fridge. Im wondering if i should try cold fermenting just the poolish after it had its 4 hour room temp ferment, then give it a few hours to get back to room temp and add the rest of the flour and IDY ? Do you think the poolish will end being a pool on the bottom of my fridge?

FeChef,

I am not that good at looking at formulas to see how they will or wonít work in trying different fermentation times, especially when a poolish is involved, and also not seeing the bakerís percent for the amount of poolish you are using. 

Why wouldnít you want to add the poolish, after the 4 hr. ferment time like you did before, and just add less IDY to the final dough?  I would think that less IDY in the final dough would give you a longer window to cold ferment your dough.  Usually a poolish is used when it is peaked, or shortly thereafter.  Maybe someone that has more experience with what you plan to do, can help you more. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 04:57:11 PM »
FeChef,

I am not that good at looking at formulas to see how they will or wonít work in trying different fermentation times, especially when a poolish is involved, and also not seeing the bakerís percent for the amount of poolish you are using. 

Why wouldnít you want to add the poolish, after the 4 hr. ferment time like you did before, and just add less IDY to the final dough?  I would think that less IDY in the final dough would give you a longer window to cold ferment your dough.  Usually a poolish is used when it is peaked, or shortly thereafter.  Maybe someone that has more experience with what you plan to do, can help you more. 

Norma

I dont have a bakers percent scale so i only go by weight for flour and water, and volume for things like sugar,salt,yeast,oil.

My problem with the recipe i have been using is that i like it, but it is originally a same day dough (really long day) so unless i start it 8am (too early for me) it wont be done till late at night. So im trying to find ways to cut a good 4 hours off the time. The best way would be to ferment the poolish the night before, and slow it down and start the final ferment the next day. I just havent figured out the best way to do this without changing flavor or texture of the final dough.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 20244
  • Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 06:38:32 PM »
I dont have a bakers percent scale so i only go by weight for flour and water, and volume for things like sugar,salt,yeast,oil.

My problem with the recipe i have been using is that i like it, but it is originally a same day dough (really long day) so unless i start it 8am (too early for me) it wont be done till late at night. So im trying to find ways to cut a good 4 hours off the time. The best way would be to ferment the poolish the night before, and slow it down and start the final ferment the next day. I just havent figured out the best way to do this without changing flavor or texture of the final dough.

FeCheF,

I really donít know how to exactly go about slowing down your poolish, but my preferment (poolish) I use for the preferment Lehmann dough is calculated (for the amount of IDY to add) to start my poolish on a Friday (using methods as heating in my Hatco unit to 110 degrees F for 25 minutes, until the preferment starts to show a few bubbles), then cold ferment my preferment until Monday, then make my final dough to be cold fermented for one day. I think, but donít know, that you might be able to also slow the rate of your preferment by either letting it not develop so much, then put it into the refrigerator until the next day.  I really have no idea of how that will work, but it might.  Since you like you dough formula so much, at least you could experiment and see what might work.  

Maybe Tom Lehmann or another member might have a better idea for you.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 06:40:16 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 08:34:30 PM »
FeCheF,

I really donít know how to exactly go about slowing down your poolish, but my preferment (poolish) I use for the preferment Lehmann dough is calculated (for the amount of IDY to add) to start my poolish on a Friday (using methods as heating in my Hatco unit to 110 degrees F for 25 minutes, until the preferment starts to show a few bubbles), then cold ferment my preferment until Monday, then make my final dough to be cold fermented for one day. I think, but donít know, that you might be able to also slow the rate of your preferment by either letting it not develop so much, then put it into the refrigerator until the next day.  I really have no idea of how that will work, but it might.  Since you like you dough formula so much, at least you could experiment and see what might work.  

Maybe Tom Lehmann or another member might have a better idea for you.

Norma

I suppose i could do what you are doing with your poolish. But do you think its safe to use a cold poolish? Or would i need to get the poolish back up to room temp before adding the rest of the flour and IDY? Maybe  make a proofing box out of the element in my food dehydrator? I think it gets up to 150F but with an adjustable fan, i can control the heat from probably 70F-150F.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 20244
  • Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 09:28:43 PM »
I suppose i could do what you are doing with your poolish. But do you think its safe to use a cold poolish? Or would i need to get the poolish back up to room temp before adding the rest of the flour and IDY? Maybe  make a proofing box out of the element in my food dehydrator? I think it gets up to 150F but with an adjustable fan, i can control the heat from probably 70F-150F.


FeChef,

I posted what my preferment looks like after being cold fermented for 3 days at Reply 969 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg156335.html#msg156335
That same preferment could have been fermented until it looked like that, maybe in a few hours or more. The only reason I let my preferment cold ferment for 3 days is because time restraints at market wouldnít allow me to be there on a Sunday to get a preferment ready. 

It you want to build an easy inexpensive proofing box, Peter has showed his at Reply 6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887  and I also built a homemade proofing box for dough or preferments at home at Reply 257 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102195.html#msg102195
 
My cold preferment never hurt my preferment Lehmann dough.  I just adjust the water temperature to achieve a normal final dough temperature that is desired.  I havenít always used a cold preferment.  That is just for market.  You wouldnít want your proofing box to go up to 150 degrees F or that would kill the yeast. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 09:53:20 PM »
Norma, I noticed your location says dutch county,PA. What farmers market is your bussiness at? Just curious because i live near kutztown and been to pretty much all the farmers markets around the lancaster/bucks/lehigh valley area.

About your poolish, that is very bubbley. My poolish has lots of tiny bubbles vs big bubbles yours has.From your pics, it looks like hydration is about the same for mine. I like how you used a dimmer switch and a halogen bulb to control tempurature. I thought of using one of those red heat lamp bulbs and a dimmer switch. But decided on the base of my food dehydrator and a bucket with a adjustable fan to circulate airflow and control tempurature. I will post pics once i start building it.


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 20244
  • Location: Dutch Country, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 11:00:19 PM »
FeCheF,

My small pizza stand is at Rootís Market in Manheim, Pa.  http://rootsmarket.com/   Kutztown isnít really far from Manheim. 

If I just make one dough ball for the preferment Lehmann dough at home, the poolish doesnít get that bubbly, but there still seems to be good gluten development. 

It would be nice if you did post pictures of your proofing box once you get started.  I also have used my home oven, with just the oven light on for a proofing box.  That also seems to work okay, but you canít control the temperature.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 12:52:10 AM »
I scrolled,read fast,and did not read everything said so maybe I missed it.

Why is your pizza inside a pizza delivery box?

-Bill

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1024
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: should i toss this dough?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 01:30:45 AM »
I scrolled,read fast,and did not read everything said so maybe I missed it.

Why is your pizza inside a pizza delivery box?



lol, My uncle gets the ufc fights, so i bring the pizza's. I got a good deal on 100 pizza boxes for $12 at a local restaurant supply, so i have been using them alot lately. Whats great is my pies havent got cold before we finish them since.