Pete-zza's Reverse Eng'g. of Buzz's Version of Giordano's Deep-Dish Pizza

[Pete-zza]

Buzz,

Have you determined an optimum use of your deep-dish dough for thin-crust purposes? What I mean by optimum is whether the dough works best after a room-temperature rise only, after a period of refrigeration (and if so, how long), a combination of room-temperature rise and refrigeration, and whether the rolled out dough should be pre-baked for a few minutes before adding sauce and toppings or just dressed and baked as normal. In both of the cases I reported on at this thread, the dough (scraps) had already been rolled out twice at the time I made the dough for the deep-dish pie, and I rolled it out a final time to put it into my cutter pans. I used no pre-baking. I just dressed the dough as normal and baked at around 450 degrees F.

I assume also that all-purpose flour is the best choice for your recipe and that it is also possible to make the dough and go directly to the refrigerator without a prior room-temperature rise.

Peter

[buzz]

I don't use a refrigerator rise, simply because I keep my refrigerator very cold (watery things freeze), and it seems to affect the dough. But I do use a long (7-8 hour) room temperature rise. Tom Lehmann told me once--don't worry about all this stuff, just let it rise and pop it in the oven!

[Pete-zza]

Last night, I made the latest iteration of the Buzz/Giordano deep-dish pizza. The pizza differed from those I made before and reported on in this thread in that I: 1) made only that amount of dough necessary to fit the deep-dish pan (9 1/2 inches by 2 inches), with no leftover dough; 2) used a dough thickness (thickness factor) intermediate to the values used for the prior two deep-dish pizzas; 3) used a different dough rolling procedure; and 4) used only a natural preferment for leavening the dough. Of all these changes, the use of the natural preferment was the most interesting departure since I couldn’t recall anyone using a natural preferment before to leaven a dough for a deep-dish pie. Consequently, I had no idea as to whether it would work at all. The answer is, yes it does. By the time I was done working all the numbers, the final recipe looked like this:

100%, King Arthur brand all-purpose flour (11.7% protein), 5.94 oz. (1 1/4 c. plus 5 t.)
20%, Preferment dough, 1.19 oz. (hydration = approx. 43%)
2.7%, Kosher salt (Morton’s brand), 0.16 oz. (between 3/4 and 7/8 t.)
2%, Sugar, 0.12 oz. (between 3/4 and 7/8 t.)
10%, Canola oil and Classico brand light olive oil, 0.60 oz. (about 3 1/3 t. canola and 1/4 t. olive oil)
43%, Water (bottled, at 105-115 degrees F), 2.56 oz. (1/3 c.)
3 t. cold butter, cut into small pieces (for use during the dough rolling process)
Total dough ball weight (excluding the butter) = 10.56 oz.
Finished dough temperature = 83 degrees F.
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.084

My first order of business was to determine how much preferment to use. In prior experiments with Caputo 00 doughs and Lehmann doughs, I used between 15-20% preferment (by weight of flour). Since that seemed to work pretty well, I chose 20% for the latest effort. However, since my preferment is liquid, I had no way of knowing for sure what its hydration percent was other than it was close to 100%. I wanted it to be the same as the basic recipe as recited above (43%) so that it could be incorporated into the basic dough without changing the hydration percent (baker’s percent) of the recipe. The way I chose to deal with this was to make a small amount of “test” dough from flour and water with a hydration percent of 43% (the same as the recipe). For this test dough, I used 0.68 oz. of flour (1 T. and 2 3/4 t.) and 0.51 oz. water (2 1/2 t.), or a total of about 1.19 oz.--the amount as noted in the recipe above. I combined the ingredients and kneaded them into a small, fairly dry ball about the size of a walnut. I then took a small amount (about 5 tablespoons) of my liquid preferment directly from the refrigerator (unrefreshed) and worked in flour until it formed a dough that felt almost exactly like the “test” dough. That told me that the preferment dough was of roughly the same hydration as the test dough. Of the total preferment dough I made, I took 1.19 oz. (20% of the weight of flour in the recipe) and put it into a small container (covered) to ferment overnight. The following morning, about 11 hours later, I used the preferment dough, which had about tripled in volume, to leaven the final dough for the pizza.

To make the dough for the pizza, I first dissolved the salt and sugar in the water and then worked in the preferment dough with my fingers. I then added the flour and worked that in also. I gradually added the canola oil blend and kneaded the dough for about one minute to incorporate it. The dough was then set aside (covered) to ferment at room temperature. Later in the day, after about 9 hours, the dough had risen by about 25% (see the first photo below). That is when I decided to use it to shape into a round to fit within the deep-dish pan. This time, however, I used a different dough rolling technique than used with either of the two prior deep-dish Buzz/Giordano doughs. I took the dough ball and divided it into three pieces of about equal weight. In turn, I shaped each into a round ball, flattened it, and then rolled it out as thinly as I could, to around 9 inches in diameter. I then superimposed the three dough rounds on top of each other. Between the dough rounds, I scattered little pieces of frozen butter that I had coated with a small amount of flour to keep from sticking to each other, and pressed the three dough rounds together to form a “lamination”. I then rolled out the “lamination” to about 13-14 inches. It felt like a large, round thin piece of rubber, and I could see the butter melting a bit under the layers.

I gently placed the rolled-out laminated dough into the deep-dish pan (lightly oiled) and pressed the dough into the pan until it fit snugly. The dough fit just right, thereby confirming my calculations of the amounts of ingredients needed to produce the proper fit and dough thickness without having any leftover dough. I then dressed the pizza and baked it in the same manner as I had done with the previous pizzas. The remaining photos below show the finished product.

The finished pizza tasted very good. The crust was especially unique—completely unlike either of the two prior Buzz/Giordano pizzas. It was flaky in places--with a layer-like structure--yet it was biscuit-like in parts and crispy and crunchy in parts. Undoubtedly the pieces of butter between the three dough rounds were responsible for the flakiness. I could see the flakiness throughout the entire crust, and it was evident just about every time I cut into the crust with my fork. I haven’t yet concluded whether this is a quality I like in a deep-dish pizza crust, but if one wants flakiness, then the technique I used certainly works. The crust also had a different, yet pleasant flavor that I attributed to the combination of the butter and the natural preferment. The flavor was that of a mild sourdough but not in any way overpowering. But it was noticeable. No doubt, had I used a more mature preferment or had I let the dough remain at room temperature longer, or placed the dough in the refrigerator for a day or two, the flavors would have been even more pronounced. Yet, I was pleased just to learn that a natural preferment can be used to make a deep-dish dough, and that a preferment dough baker’s percent of around 20% is workable.

As noted above, I took great pains to calculate precise amounts of the preferment dough. This was done to prove out the feasibility of using the preferment. However, I believe that one can reproduce my efforts without that degree of precision. Taking a portion of liquid preferment and adding flour to it until it is about the size of a walnut and can be formed and kneaded into a piece of fairly dry dough should be sufficient for a room temperature fermentation period of around 8-10 hours. That piece of preferment dough effectively replaces the commercial yeast that would otherwise be required.

In due course, I intend to repeat the above experiment, but using commercial yeast again instead of the preferment, and returning to the previous dough rolling technique rather than the three-layer laminate, which I found to take a lot of time and effort to produce. This should produce a more conventional deep-dish pizza from which I hope to calculate a more definitive set of baker’s percents.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

And a couple more photos--of the pie out of the pan and a slice.

Peter

[Steve]

I'm going to try this recipe soon. 

[Navin Johnson]

I made the deep dish last night for dinner.  It was excellent.  I have the leftover dough waiting for me to make into a thin crust for tonight's dinner.

I lived in Chicago for a year during grad school and this was quite like what I remember about the deep dish.  One thing we've (we being my wife and I, my oldest son who was born in Chicago was too little to eat pizza back then) -- One thing we've been looking for is a way to replicate the Chicago thin-crust and more specifically Leona's crust.  I'm hopeful that using this dough for a thin is the ticket.  I've tried the cracker crust, and while I do like it quite a bit it is not quite the same as the thin crust from Leona's that we used to get in Roger's Park.

-Eric

[Pete-zza]

Navin,

Which one of the recipes did you use, the first one or the second one?

The "twofer" is actually quite a nice idea. You can have deep-dish one night and thin the next night. Once I get the baker's percents straightened out for the deep-dish, I might be able to turn my attention to the thin pizza all by itself. I would expect that the baker's percents would be the same but using different amounts of ingredients depending on the size of pizza desired. In that case, the dough for both the deep-dish and thin could all be made at one time, and be divided into two pieces later--one for the deep-dish and the other for the thin crust. Since the dough holds up well to refrigeration, it wouldn't be necessary to have both pizzas at the same time.

In the meantime, you can use the leftover scraps from the deep-dish dough to make the thin crust. I am not as savvy about thin crust pizza as other styles, so I welcome any feedback, insights or suggestions you (or Buzz or anyone else) might have on the thin crust. What I don't quite know yet is the optimum thickness of the dough for the thin style, or the optimum baking methodology (pan, rack positioning, bake time, bake temperature, etc.). I have just been free-lancing it thus far.

Peter

[buzz]

I'm not as savvy about the different varieties of thin crust, either. But this basic formula does make a tasty thin crust and can be rolled out or stretched to whatever thickness you would like. I'm still going to have to experiment with varying oil content levels!

[Navin Johnson]

Hi Pete-zza,

I used the first recipe for the pizzas.  Yes, the "twofer" does work out well, especially when I'm busy during the week.  As for the thin crust, which I made last night, it did not turn out as well as I would like but it certainly has potential.  I cooked it at 450 on a baking sheet for 15 minutes and then another 4 minutes or so since the dough didn't seem done enough.  After letting it cool a bit and slicing I discovered the dough was still not cooked enough in the middle.  It seems that a bit of parbaking will be necessary for me to get what I'm looking for.  Still the edges of the pizza were good.

Several possibilities for failure:  rolled out too thin (I didn't get out the calipers but I'd say it was between 1/8 to 3/16 inches thick), too much sauce (although I doubt that), perhaps the backing sheet was the wrong type of pan.

Next time I'll probably parbake and see how that works.

Great dough though,
Eric (Navin Johnson)

[Pete-zza]

I have been experimenting lately with using the Buzz-Giordano’s deep-dish dough to make thin-crust pizzas. In the most recent experiment, I made an amount of dough that would have been sufficient to make a deep-dish pizza in a 9 1/2-inch deep-dish pan but instead used it to make a thin-crust pizza in a 14-inch cutter pan. The recipe I used is as follows:

100%, King Arthur all-purpose flour (11.7% protein), 6.61 oz. (1 1/2 c. plus 4 t.)
2.03%, ADY, 0.134 oz. (a bit over 1 t.)
2.7%, Kosher salt, 0.18 oz. (a bit less than 1 t.)
2.0%, Sugar, 0.132 oz. (a bit less than 1 t.)
10%, Canola oil (about 3 5/8 t.) and Classico brand olive oil (1/3 t.) (0.66 oz. total)
43%, Water (bottled, at 105-115 degrees F), 2.84 oz. (a bit less than 3/8 c.)
Finished dough weight = 10.60 oz.
Finished dough temperature = 82.3 degrees F.
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.084

The dough was made in the same fashion as originally instructed by Buzz. Once made, the dough was left at room temperature for 8 hours. I then rolled it out to around 15 inches, folded it into quarters, and rolled it out again. I did this two more times, for a total of three times. After fitting the rolled out dough into my 14-inch cutter pan (with no leftover dough), I pre-baked the crust for about 4 minutes in a 500 degree F preheated oven, using the lowest oven rack position. I did not dock the dough. In retrospect, I might have done so since the dough started to balloon up from the high oven heat and I could see the “layers” of the dough starting to separate. I punched the dough down in several places with the tip of a kitchen knife, and removed the par-baked crust after 4 minutes. I then dressed the par-baked crust and finished baking it at 450-475 degrees F for an additional 7-8 minutes.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza tasted fine, with a combination of crunchiness at the rim and softness in the middle. It was also a bit flaky (as may be seen in the second photo below). But what was most interesting about the pizza, and the main reason I posted my results today, is that the pizza tasted much better a day later, after reheating it in my toaster oven. The crust was much crunchier and cracker-like (but paper-thin crackery) with a significantly greater degree of flakiness as the layers of the crust separated while eating the pizza slices. Next time I make this pizza, I may refrigerate it and wait a day later to eat it.

In future experiments with the above recipe I may try docking the dough before pre-baking, and I may even try making the pizza without re-rolling the dough several times or first pre-baking the crust. I will also need to play around some more with oven positioning and bake times and temperatures to find what works best for this style.

Peter

[buzz]

Good experimentation--that's half the fun!

[Pete-zza]

I decided recently to try out Buzz’s latest version of his Giordano-style deep dough and to develop the corresponding set of baker’s percents. In the latest iteration, Buzz has increased the amount of flour from 1 1/2 c. to 2 c., along with corresponding increases in the yeast, water and sugar, and, most significantly, Buzz has increased the total amount of oil three-fold, from 6 t. to 6 T. (18 t.). The recipe as I took it (verbatim) from Reply # 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1780.0.html is as follows:

2 cups KA AP
1 heaping TSP yeast
.50 cup, plus 2 TBS water
1 TSP sugar
.50 TSP sea salt
6 TBS oil (5 canola, 1 extra light olive oil)

Using a combination of volume and weight measurements, I converted Buzz’s recipe to the following (the volume numbers are Buzz’s and the weight measurement and baker’s percents numbers are mine):

100%, King Arthur all-purpose flour, 10.85 oz. (2 c.)
1.54%, ADY yeast, 0.17 oz. (1 heaping t.)
46.5%, Water, 5.05 oz. (1/2 c. plus 2 T.)
1.33 %, Sugar, 0.14 oz. (1 t.)
1.66%, Sea salt, 0.18 oz. (1/2 t.)
23.5%, Oil, 2.55 oz. (5 T. canola oil and 1 T. Classico olive oil)
Total dough weight: 19.25 oz.
Finished dough temperature: 80.4 degrees F
Thickness factor (TF), calculated: 0.152

To prepare the dough, I combined the dry ingredients (except for the ADY) in a bowl, proofed the ADY in a small amount of warm water (115 degrees F), and combined the proofed yeast with the rest of the water. The water/yeast mixture was then added to the mixture of dry ingredients in the bowl and combined together briefly by hand. I then added the oil blend and worked that into the dough. The total mix/knead time was about a minute.

What stood out with this dough as compared with my previous efforts was how wet the dough was. It was an “oily” wetness as opposed to a “water” wetness. I normally don’t combine the water and oil baker’s percents to come up with what one might call an “effective hydration” (I believe fellow member giotto routinely does this kind of addition) but I couldn’t help but note that the “effective hydration” in this case came to 70%. This compares with about 55-53% in my prior experiments reported on this thread. Notwithstanding, I placed the finished dough into a metal container (covered) and placed the container in the refrigerator. It remained there for around 26 hours, whereupon it was brought out to room temperature for about 2 hours in preparation for placement into my 9 1/2-inch deep-dish pan.

After two hours, the dough was still wet. I don’t know much about sheeters, but it is hard for me to believe that my dough could have been put through such a machine as is apparently done at Giordano’s. I chose not to roll out the dough, since this would have meant having to add a fair amount of additional flour. So I simply flattened the dough and pressed it into my 9 1/2-inch deep-dish pan. I did not oil the pan first. Since Buzz had previously indicated that the dough would fit within a 9 1/2-inch deep-dish pan without any leftover, I followed his suggestions on this point even though it was clear that the dough was considerably thicker than the doughs I had made before (the thickness factor, noted above, was about 45-50% greater than my prior doughs).

The dough was dressed with a 50/50 combination of mozzarella/provolone cheese slices: sautéed sliced mushrooms, garlic, diced green peppers and onions; the contents of one link of spicy sausage precooked only to the pink stage (in retrospect, 2 links would have been better); sliced Hormel pepperoni; a sauce made of drained 6-in-1 canned tomatoes and Penzeys pizza seasoning; and grated Parmigiano-Reggiano and Pecorino Romano cheeses distributed over the top of the pizza. The pizza was baked on the center rack of a 475-degree F preheated oven for about 25-30 minutes.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza was very good although the crust had a much different texture than the previous crusts I have made following Buzz’s Giordano-style recipes. It was thick (at least 1/2-inch thick at the sides and about 1/4-inch at the bottom), biscuit-y and a bit crumbly, and even tasted like it had a bit of cornmeal in it. I thought the crust was a little bit light on salt (the recipe calls for only 1/2 t. sea salt) but that is something that can be easily remedied.

I have come to the conclusion that it is hard to damage a deep-dish dough, except possibly by overkneading. It will tolerate small and large amounts of oil and different crust thicknesses, and it will yield crust textures ranging from soft to crackery and crunchy, even flaky if made using multiple layers. It all depends on what you are looking for. I have enjoyed all of the deep-dish pizzas I have made, including those offered up by DKM. And they are among the best pizzas for reheating, with the flavors intensifying during refrigeration, like a good pasta sauce. I still need a little bit more practice to get the finished pizzas out of the pan, but I am getting better at doing it with each pizza.

Peter

[buzz]

Peter--

Looks good! For some reason, yours comes out thicker than mine (but then I go by look and feel and not weighing). The reason I decided to try inceasing the oil amount (which makes the final result even more Giordano's-like!) is that I talked with a guy who used to own a Giordano's franchise and he said that their dough literally drips with oil. It should sheet fine--I don't have any problem rolling it with a rolling pin.

[Pete-zza]

Buzz,

Thanks for the feedback. I actually liked the thick crust but my objective is to get the proper thickness characteristic of a Giordano-style crust. Once I get that, I can come up with a set of baker's percents that will allow me to calculate the amounts of ingredients that will give me the same crust thickness (and, hence, characteristics) but in any desired pan size. For example, I have a wonderful 12-inch pizzatools deep-dish pan that I would like to make a deep-dish pizza in sometime. I can scale up the ingredients by feel, or by trial and error, but I would prefer to have greater precision so that I don't have to grope and fiddle around with the dough to be sure that it is of the proper thickness in the pan. As much as a Luddite I am, I might even be able to come up with a spreadsheet to make life easier for myself and others who might benefit from the greater precision.

Next time I may try rolling out the dough to see if that will reduce the thickness. Or maybe I can put the dough into the pan without letting it rise as much before using. If I want a thicker crust, I can always let the dough in the pan rise for, say, a half hour to an hour before dressing, since this is apparently common practice for deep-dish. I don't know if this is the practice followed at Giordano's.

You indicated previously that you are contemplating going from 2 cups flour to 1 3/4 cups but staying with 6 tablespoons of oil. Have you tried that yet?

Peter

[buzz]

Giordano's doesn't let the dough rise in the pan--they sheet it twice and off it goes. A second rise in the pan makes it breadier, I believe. Their crust comes out thinner than yours depicted here.

I haven't tried the 1.75 cups yet, but I will next time. I think that will be perfect!

When I make it, it comes out as a very pliable dough, which can be stretched or rolled easily.

[cdodson]

I am curious to know if anyone has attempted to make a deep dish in an 18-inch pizza pan.  Not having near the precise measurement abilities of Peter I ordered one sight unseen from eBay.  The thing is huge.   I believe it is an old Pizza Hut pan that may have been used for their New York style pizzas.  But my curiosity has gotten the best of me lately and I'm tempted to see how it would turn out.  In fact, last night I rolled 5 dough balls using buzz's 2-cup KA flour recipe.  This afternoon I'm going to make more pizzas.  (Made 2 yesterday and will post photos and results later).

[Pete-zza]

Carey,

Out of curiosity, I extrapolated Buzz's 2-cup deep-dish recipe as I made it recently to an 18-inch size. I didn't have a specific pan depth to work with, so I assumed either 1 1/2 inches or 2 inches. If the pan depth is 1 1/2 inches (which appears to be the depth of Pizza Hut pans), and using the thickness factor TF for the dough I made (0.152), I come up with a total dough weight of almost 50 ounces. For a pan depth of 2 inches, and again using the same thickness factor (0.152), I come up with a total dough weight of a bit over 54 ounces. For the 1 1/2-inch case, that is about 2.6 times the amount of dough I made for the 9 1/2-inch size pan (2 inches deep); for the 2-inch case, that is about 2.8 times the amount of dough I made. Using the baker's percents I posted for my formulation, you could calculate the amounts of all the ingredients for the 18-inch size. The next time I make Buzz's 2-cup version, I should be able to fine tune the baker's percents better.

I will be interested in seeing the result you achieve should you decide to make the 18-inch size. That would make for a really longggggg slice . I will also be very interested in learning how long it takes to bake such a monster. Even with my 9 1/2-inch size, I find it necessary to cover the top of the pizza with a piece of aluminum foil to keep the exposed crust from browning too much (at 450-475 degrees F on the middle oven rack position).

Peter

[cdodson]

Thanks, Pete-zza!  I envy your mathematical abilities.  I just measured the depth of the 18" pan and see that it is 2 inches.  We had my best friend and his family over for dinner last night and they couldn't get past the first slice.  In fact I'm still laughing about how mad he was because he couldn't eat more.  And that was baked with a 9" pan!

One problem that I seem to be consistently having is with the dough drawing up after I have placed it in the pan.  In reviewing buzz's recipe, I noticed that after he rolls it out he says to let it rest for a while.  Mine didn't seem to draw up while it was rolled out.  But as soon as it goes in the pan it draws up before I get all the cheese on the bottom.  This has occured on all 4 pizzas this weekend.  I was using a 10-inch springform pan that was 3" in depth and I had to switch to an 8-inch.  It made me very nervous but after cooking two pizzas last night there was still 2/3 of both left after everyone was full.  (I used extra dough to add a top crust which thickened it considerably.)

The 18-inch concept seems like it may work for feeding a large group of people.  But it will take a mother lode of ingredients to fill it.  I considered cutting square slices in smaller portions but then that would eliminate most people's enjoyment of the crust.  And so far everyone has raved about the crust.

[Pete-zza]

Carey,

Even an expert like Tom Lehmann can have difficulty diagnosing a problem like you have been experiencing. He tried to address the issue for a deep-dish dough that is quite similar to Buzz's (in terms of ingredients and quantities): http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/1071.

Buzz may have a specific solution to your shrinkage problem. However, I have read that using shortening or butter in the pan before pressing in the dough can help. You might be able to reduce the amount of oil in the dough a bit and compensate for the reduction by using shortening (such as Crisco) or butter in the pan. Using dabs of shortening or butter instead of a uniform layer may be enough to anchor the dough so that it doesn't shrink, or shrink as much. Apparently oil does a better job of crisping the crust than shortening or butter, so that may be the tradeoff.

Peter

[buzz]

I find that letting the dough rest in between flattening periods lets the gluten relax so that it's easier to roll out. After a couple of folding and "sheeting" sessions it's pretty tame, so I just roll it out flat and put it in the pan.

Giordano's uses either margarine or butter to grease their pans (probably margarine).